FighterforJC Posted May 23, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/25/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 23, 2007 This is the bottom line. Does God know everything that is going to happen in the future? Yes. Is there any way we can possibly change what God already knows is going to come to pass? Of course not. To me that means my free will is only apparent. There is absolutely nothing I can do to change the course that God already knows my life is going to take. Every choice I make FEELS real to me. I don't feel like a robot or a puppet, and that's good enough for me. There's a videogame coming out later this month that I've been looking forward to for the last 2 months, and I CHOSE to forfeit it so that I can buy another videogame instead. The choice I made was real. Did God know beforehand that I was gonna end up buying a different game? Yes! Was there a chance at all that I would've ended up buying the game I had originally intended to buy? Not at all. God knew all along that I was going to buy the other one and there was absolutely nothing I could've done to change that. Now before everybody jumps on me and accuses me of heresy, let me just point out that this isn't meant to excuse us of any responsibility we have in this life to do what's right and to stay away from doing what's wrong. We are responsible for our actions and we are accountable for them. God writes the rules. Some might get upset and complain that it won't be fair for God to judge us for the sins that he "scripted" for us to commit, but the same people have no problem with getting heavenly rewards for the good works that the Holy Spirit actually works through us. My point is, when it comes to the issue of "free will," the real problem is each person's refusal to admit that God is in total control. People want to feel that THEY have the power, not God. They will argue that in order for God to be truly holy, we MUST have free will. Uhm, no. He is the potter, we are the clay. He is holy no matter what. People don't like the idea that God doesn't have to bow down to their choices. God gave us the most sophisticated A.I., be content with that. Stop trying to defend your sovereignty and just praise the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neopatriarch Posted May 23, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 23, 2007 This is the bottom line. Does God know everything that is going to happen in the future? Yes. Is there any way we can possibly change what God already knows is going to come to pass? Of course not. To me that means my free will is only apparent. There is absolutely nothing I can do to change the course that God already knows my life is going to take. Every choice I make FEELS real to me. I don't feel like a robot or a puppet, and that's good enough for me. There's a videogame coming out later this month that I've been looking forward to for the last 2 months, and I CHOSE to forfeit it so that I can buy another videogame instead. The choice I made was real. Did God know beforehand that I was gonna end up buying a different game? Yes! Was there a chance at all that I would've ended up buying the game I had originally intended to buy? Not at all. God knew all along that I was going to buy the other one and there was absolutely nothing I could've done to change that. Good post. I suppose a lot of it hangs on our understanding of a "choice". I like to define it as a translation of our beliefs and desires into an action. However, libertarian freewillists would say that you have contracausal freedom. You could've chosen otherwise. This gets us into the issue of whether or not, when I am presented alternatives and choose one of them, it was possible for me to choose the other. Well, what do we mean by "possible" then? Do we mean that it was conceivable that I choose the other alternative? If that is what it means, then I would have no problem with that. The fact that choosing another alternative is conceivable by me, or anyone else, doesn't mean I won't do what God ordains that I will do. So, you could say that the fact that I have more than one alternative I could conceivably choose may give me the illusion that I am in control when really God is. I might begin to think that God is not the first cause of everything. Now before everybody jumps on me and accuses me of heresy, let me just point out that this isn't meant to excuse us of any responsibility we have in this life to do what's right and to stay away from doing what's wrong. We are responsible for our actions and we are accountable for them. God writes the rules. Some might get upset and complain that it won't be fair for God to judge us for the sins that he "scripted" for us to commit, but the same people have no problem with getting heavenly rewards for the good works that the Holy Spirit actually works through us. My point is, when it comes to the issue of "free will," the real problem is each person's refusal to admit that God is in total control. People want to feel that THEY have the power, not God. They will argue that in order for God to be truly holy, we MUST have free will. Uhm, no. He is the potter, we are the clay. He is holy no matter what. People don't like the idea that God doesn't have to bow down to their choices. God gave us the most sophisticated A.I., be content with that. Stop trying to defend your sovereignty and just praise the Lord. Why would this be heresy? I posted on this subject a while ago in the apologetics forum. Here it is: I believe God is powerful enough to create me with the ability to choose a door with freedom. He knew wich one I would choose, but He takes pleasure when we choose the correct door without being forced. I could be wrong on this, but that is how I see God in the Bible. Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will . . . Since God ordains all things (works all things according to the counsel of his will), and God knows all things (he knows not only what we might do but also what we will do), I can only conclude that we do not have free will (that is, libertarian free will). God gave us logic (otherwise how could we be sure any thought we have is correct). If God created beings to choose the wrong door, and they had no choice in it, then it would be illogical for Him to be angry with them. All throughout the bible God is angry at sinners and with people who did not choose Him. 'Choice' means we are translating our beliefs and desires into an action. We may be presented alternatives, but we will always choose what we desire most. I don't believe we have the freedom to do otherwise. Does this mean we aren't responsible for our choices? . . . Suppose I'm given two alternatives: 1) I can murder someone, or 2) I can give to the poor. And suppose I have a chip implanted in my brain that prevents me from giving to the poor if I were to try to do that. Since the alternative is to murder someone, I must murder someone. If the chip is forcing me to murder someone against my will, then this choice is not free. But suppose I want to murder someone rather than give to the poor. The chip does nothing. I am acting in accordance with my beliefs and desires. The fact that I did not have the freedom to do otherwise doesn't mean I'm not responsible for my actions, does it? 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FighterforJC Posted May 23, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/25/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 23, 2007 Some just think it's heretical to say that we actually cannot change what God knows is going to happen. For every action we take, could there have been alternatives? Sure. There's an infinite number of alternatives to the actions we take. After I dunked a basketball, it's "possible" that I "could've" just layed it up or perhaps even passed the ball to my teammate at the last second. In the end, the "could'ves" don't really exist. This might not be the best analogy, but I like to view our choices as a bunch of empty cups, and the ones we fill with water are the actions that we ended up taking. On this side of the eternity, it's nice to be able to look at all those empty cups. But on God's side of eternity, you won't see any empty cups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LAW Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 why God made us as we are is something that we, as clay pots, are not supposed to demand an answer to. However, the fact that the Lord knows all things does not mean that we have free will to just sit around and say, oh, well, i can't change anything anyway. People sometimes seem to take the attitude, both with salvation and with such issues as foreknowledge, that we should not give God our best, but only give what is required. We want to know EXACTLY the formula for salvation. We want to know EXACTLY how much of our lives the Lord demands, etc. (I don't know that i'm expressing this well, sorry.) I get the feeling when i see the debates sometimes that it's the minimum that people aspire to in regard to their salvation or works, etc. There seems to be an assumption that, if grace is really free, then naturally we'll want to get saved and then sit on our laurels. I believe that, when the H.S. is working in our lives, we'll change in such a way that we WANT to give our all. The same with foreknowledge--it shouldn't matter to us that God knows us so well and knows the future so that He knows exactly what choices we'll make in our life, etc. If He says that we have freedom of choice, can we not trust Him enuf to take those words as truth? I have free will to walk away from the Lord. I believe that to do so, would break my heart as well as His. I believe He knows my heart and knows what i will do in the future and that is a comfort to me, not a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FighterforJC Posted May 23, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/25/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 23, 2007 why God made us as we are is something that we, as clay pots, are not supposed to demand an answer to. However, the fact that the Lord knows all things does not mean that we have free will to just sit around and say, oh, well, i can't change anything anyway. People sometimes seem to take the attitude, both with salvation and with such issues as foreknowledge, that we should not give God our best, but only give what is required. We want to know EXACTLY the formula for salvation. We want to know EXACTLY how much of our lives the Lord demands, etc. (I don't know that i'm expressing this well, sorry.) I get the feeling when i see the debates sometimes that it's the minimum that people aspire to in regard to their salvation or works, etc. There seems to be an assumption that, if grace is really free, then naturally we'll want to get saved and then sit on our laurels. I believe that, when the H.S. is working in our lives, we'll change in such a way that we WANT to give our all. The same with foreknowledge--it shouldn't matter to us that God knows us so well and knows the future so that He knows exactly what choices we'll make in our life, etc. If He says that we have freedom of choice, can we not trust Him enuf to take those words as truth? I have free will to walk away from the Lord. I believe that to do so, would break my heart as well as His. I believe He knows my heart and knows what i will do in the future and that is a comfort to me, not a challenge. We might be going into a different topic here, but when you say that you have "free will" to "walk away from the Lord" do you mean in terms of salvation? Do you mean to say that when God put your name in the Lamb's Book of Life, you have the power to cancel that contract? Does it make you feel better that you have the power? Hopefully you're not talking about salvation. But whatever you call free will, all I'm saying is whatever it is you ended up doing, God already knew and He wasn't guessing. There's absolutely NOTHING anyone can do to change what God already knows is going to happen. Does that make you feel uncomfortable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neopatriarch Posted May 23, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 23, 2007 why God made us as we are is something that we, as clay pots, are not supposed to demand an answer to. However, the fact that the Lord knows all things does not mean that we have free will to just sit around and say, oh, well, i can't change anything anyway. May God use me as a means for change, and may he change me as well. God ordains the ends . . . and he ordains the means to those ends! I can change things, and, because God ordains the ends, what I do for change in his name has the great hope of success. -Neopatriarch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted May 23, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 23, 2007 This is the bottom line. Does God know everything that is going to happen in the future? Yes. Is there any way we can possibly change what God already knows is going to come to pass? Of course not. To me that means my free will is only apparent. There is absolutely nothing I can do to change the course that God already knows my life is going to take. Every choice I make FEELS real to me. I don't feel like a robot or a puppet, and that's good enough for me. There's a videogame coming out later this month that I've been looking forward to for the last 2 months, and I CHOSE to forfeit it so that I can buy another videogame instead. The choice I made was real. Did God know beforehand that I was gonna end up buying a different game? Yes! Was there a chance at all that I would've ended up buying the game I had originally intended to buy? Not at all. God knew all along that I was going to buy the other one and there was absolutely nothing I could've done to change that. Now before everybody jumps on me and accuses me of heresy, let me just point out that this isn't meant to excuse us of any responsibility we have in this life to do what's right and to stay away from doing what's wrong. We are responsible for our actions and we are accountable for them. God writes the rules. Some might get upset and complain that it won't be fair for God to judge us for the sins that he "scripted" for us to commit, but the same people have no problem with getting heavenly rewards for the good works that the Holy Spirit actually works through us. My point is, when it comes to the issue of "free will," the real problem is each person's refusal to admit that God is in total control. People want to feel that THEY have the power, not God. They will argue that in order for God to be truly holy, we MUST have free will. Uhm, no. He is the potter, we are the clay. He is holy no matter what. People don't like the idea that God doesn't have to bow down to their choices. God gave us the most sophisticated A.I., be content with that. Stop trying to defend your sovereignty and just praise the Lord. How could this be heresy? It's accurate. I think it can lead to heresy (Hyper Calvinism), but the opposite is true as well (denial of this can lead to Open Theism). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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