Guest shiloh357 Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 ONEAccord You are clearly not familiar with universalism, and thus are trying to put forth arguments with no knowledge of the subject. The 'universalists' do not deny that there will be punishment or retribution or judgement or even a prison term in hell 'if they so choose'. This is a misconception promoted by people seeking to discredit them. Actually OneAccord I admitted in my first post on this subject that you believe a person will get punished if you would kindly recall, I said the following: No reason for anyone to share the gospel message, because if a person does not believe in Christ on this side of eternity, they will after they die, and they will get a another chance anyway, so what the hey? Why not just reject Jesus, live like pagans and have as much sinful fun as possible, and then after I get to the other side, I might spend a little time paying for it, but I will accept Jesus then and still make to Heaven anyway, so it doesnt really matter. So I understood from the outset what you are saying. I am not closing my ears to what you are saying, but you have not brought forth one example from the Word of God to support this. If what you are saying is true, then you would have unequivical proof. I want to see one thing from the Word of God that shows a person getting a second chance. The absence of such evidence lends to lack of feesabilty of the universalist position as you are relating it to us. I assume that YOU understand universalism. Here is what the Bible says about those who reject God and take the mark of the beast. Rev. 14:9-11 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, [10] he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." According to the Bible, those who recieve the mark of the beast will be in torment FOREVER. Do not EVEN try that conspiracy theory stuff about people purposely mistranslating the Bible. Such allegations are usually made by folks who lack the linguistic expertise or the manuscript evidence to support such baseless allegations. The point I was making is that if Iwere a sinner, and knew that I will only have to suffer for a season, and then everything will be OK, then I might be tempted to think that it would be worth the trouble and to go ahead and sin as much as I can live it up and then suffer for just a season until it is payed off. Don't you understand? I would not care if I had the love of God in me or not. If I were a sinner listening to you, I could see this as advantageous as it regards my sinful interests. If hell is not eternal, I have nothing to be so worried about. So what if I have to spend 100 years in Hell, if at the end I get to go to heaven anyway? You need to put yourself in a sinner's postion. Empathize a little. There is no reason for them to accept Jesus today, if they get another chance after they die. They will be reformed, and all will set aright, they will have gotten what they wanted on this side, and still get heavenly bliss on the other after a nominal stay in hell. So, your statements about not having the love of God in them, is true, but a sinner could not care less about that. And this is where judgement comes in. Judgement destroys the power of the carnal mind which blinds, which is enmity against God---but judgement does not grant redemption. It only breaks rebellion. Redemption was purchased on the cross."" Judgement is the result of rebellion. It does not destroy the carnal mind, only the spirit of God does that. The only way to reform the mind is to renew it the Word of God. Judgement is the end result of not renewing one's mind in the Word of God and choosing rather to thumb your nose at God. It is does not break rebellion, it punishes the rebellious. Judgement in no way reforms a person. Judgement only comes after God has exhausted all means of dealing mercifully with an individual. Judgement falls because God's justice must be satisfied. God only judged Israel after repeated calls for repentance were ignored, and even mocked. God's patience has an end. In every case, God's judgement resulted in the the death's of those rebelled against Him. God did not break carnal minds, He destoyed the carnal people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 25, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 25, 2004 And, what does the Bible say? John.3 [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Rom.5 [8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Yes Calamity! You are on the right track. God still loves sinners, yet he doesn't love sinners. How can we make these verses not be contradictory? Well, it seems that there are two types of love that God must have. A general love for all of mankind, and a close-knit, devout love for those whom are his children. Here is another verse: John 15:10 If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love. So according to this verse, you must obey Christ's commands and remain in His love so that you will remain in the Father's love. Again, if this person turns away from obeying Christ's commands, and then doens't remain in God's love, will the Father's love remail in him? No, it won't. But this person will still be loved by God. So it must be decided that there are two seperate loves here. A general love for all mankind, and a different love for those who love and are devoted to Him. Can God love someone and still cast them away from His presence and into the lake of fire? Mark 10:17-22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted January 26, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 26, 2004 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted January 26, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 26, 2004 So many people forget that God is Holy and He cannot under any circumstances have sin in his presence. We must be cleansed and properly dressed before we can enter into His magnificence. Why is that so hard for us to accept? Blessings to all of you, Wayne Wayne: Could you please explain why Satan was able to present himself before God in the Book of Job, if this be true? We also see Satan standing at the right hand of the Angel of the Lord in Zech 3:1, and Joshua the high priest was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel in 3:3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 26, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 26, 2004 So many people forget that God is Holy and He cannot under any circumstances have sin in his presence. We must be cleansed and properly dressed before we can enter into His magnificence. Why is that so hard for us to accept? Blessings to all of you, Wayne Wayne: Could you please explain why Satan was able to present himself before God in the Book of Job, if this be true? We also see Satan standing at the right hand of the Angel of the Lord in Zech 3:1, and Joshua the high priest was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel in 3:3. No I can't explain it completely... (maybe one of our scholars can) except to offer that God allows Satan, an angelic being, certain freedoms and access that others will never have. Regardless, Revelation 12:10 reveals that his access to God will be forever barred. I trust that it is all part of God's plan, a plan that I do not have to understand completely to believe in its Truth and Perfection. I chose to Trust and obey His Word...and only His Word as the Spirit gives understanding. Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. OneAccord, don't lean on your own or someone else's understanding. Trust in the Lord and He will make your paths straight. Blessings, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted January 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2004 You ask in your post who we follow. I answer that I follow neither John Calvin nor Jacob Arminius. I choose to follow Christ. Wayne, this statement always comes across as haughty, pious and self-righteous. The people who understand and believe the interpretations of either Calvin or Arminius and agree with them also choose to follow Christ, just like you, and are no less a Christian. By saying "I am an Arminian" or "I am a Calvinist" they are simply letting it be known their understanding of the plan of Salvation. Since both views have unchanging beliefs about what Scripture mean, it can save a lot of time if someone, in a discussion, reveals which of the two major interpretations they agree with. When you use your last name, you are simply aligning yourself with a family and it's traits and characteristics. The person you are speaking to, if knowledgable about your family, will have a better understanding of who you are. That's all someone is doing when they say "I am an Arminian/Calvinist." It has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of allegiance to either man, or putting their faith in either man's teachings before their faith in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 26, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 26, 2004 You ask in your post who we follow. I answer that I follow neither John Calvin nor Jacob Arminius. I choose to follow Christ. Wayne, this statement always comes across as haughty, pious and self-righteous. The people who understand and believe the interpretations of either Calvin or Arminius and agree with them also choose to follow Christ, just like you, and are no less a Christian. By saying "I am an Arminian" or "I am a Calvinist" they are simply letting it be known their understanding of the plan of Salvation. Since both views have unchanging beliefs about what Scripture mean, it can save a lot of time if someone, in a discussion, reveals which of the two major interpretations they agree with. When you use your last name, you are simply aligning yourself with a family and it's traits and characteristics. The person you are speaking to, if knowledgable about your family, will have a better understanding of who you are. That's all someone is doing when they say "I am an Arminian/Calvinist." It has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of allegiance to either man, or putting their faith in either man's teachings before their faith in Christ. I didn't mean for it to sound that way. Please forgive me if I insulted anyone. I would never ever say that a follower of either Calvin or Arminius was any more of or less of Christian. I was just repeating what Paul said to the believers in Corinth...a message of unity, not uniformity. The truth is that I don't follow John Calvin nor Jacob Arminius...not even my own pastor who I love and respect. All of them have their strengths and all of them have their weaknesses. When folks ask my "religion" I answer simply "I am a follower of Christ". If they ask what church I go to, I tell them the Church of God (I guess that is my association as you stated except I am not aligned with all of the doctrine of the CoG). Please believe me though, I in no way intended to imply that they were not men of God. They just aren't 100% right on all matters of doctrine. None of us residing in the flesh are. That is what I meant when I said I choose to follow Christ because only in Him will we know the Truth. 1 Cor 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. I hope I explained myself. Blessings, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted January 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2004 It's just a pet peeve of mine, as I've heard it too many times tossed over a haughty shoulder, while staring down the nose, lol. Often it is used as some self-inflating "I'm better than that, I have Christ and Christ alone, I'm on a higher plain than the rest of the mere mortals" attitude. Yuck. They just aren't 100% right on all matters of doctrine. None of us residing in the flesh are. Absolutely agreed! I, too, when asked what my "religion" is say that I have no religion. I believe religion sends one straight to hell. Of course, that can sound pious to some I guess! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 26, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 26, 2004 It's just a pet peeve of mine, as I've heard it too many times tossed over a haughty shoulder, while staring down the nose, lol. Often it is used as some self-inflating "I'm better than that, I have Christ and Christ alone, I'm on a higher plain than the rest of the mere mortals" attitude. Yuck. They just aren't 100% right on all matters of doctrine. None of us residing in the flesh are. Absolutely agreed! I, too, when asked what my "religion" is say that I have no religion. I believe religion sends one straight to hell. Of course, that can sound pious to some I guess! Thanks. I understand and appreciate you pointing it out to me. I will be more careful how I word it in the future. Thank you sister. Blessings, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Calamity Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 About the second chance in hell, I would ask you to review my posts about the verses in 1 Peter--3:19,20 & 4:6 and respond to what I put forth there. OA, you keep asking about the verses in Peter, well, I don't know all the answers. But, what about these, that you haven't commented on? Also, if people were allowed out of hell, then there would be no unforgivable sin: Here are the verses about that: Matt.12 [31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. [32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. And, what I asked earlier about this that you said: Judgement destroys the power of the carnal mind which blinds, which is enmity against God---but judgement does not grant redemption. It only breaks rebellion. Redemption was purchased on the cross."" Can you show that to us, from the Bible? I have not seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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