No-Knock Searches Get People Killed

[Guest]

Peace Maker

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Luke 2:8-14

The police are not anointed by the fearful to exercise violence. The fire dept. arises out of what? Fear of fire.

The doctor arises out of what? Fear of sickness. I think the examples are perfect.

The Times

Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Mark 13:12

The Hope

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Acts 2:22

The Knock

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:17

The Love

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

My Prayer For Brothers And Sisters Who "Carry" Or Not

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25

Maranatha!

Hallelujah!

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Axxman]

Right, the public - and more recently, cameras - keep police accountable. When people want to get you in trouble, they can often find any reason to do so. This provides for extreme accountability.

Another thing thats relavant. Lawsuits keep most Departments accountable too. We get sued all the time. I am currently being sued for $1.8 million dollars by a guy thats sued the Sheriffs Dept two other times. Both times the county has settled the lawsuit out of court for a couple thousand dollars (I don't know the exact amounts.) Undoubtably, this will happen again. I have been investigated thoroughly by Internal Affairs and been cleared of any wrong-doing. However, this guy STILL figures he can get a couple thousand dollars.

A few more lawsuits and the dept. will figure it can save money by letting me go...even if I've done nothing wrong. You can imagine that my "accountability rating" will soar if the Dept. has to start putting out extra money.

[apothanein kerdos]

Right, the public - and more recently, cameras - keep police accountable. When people want to get you in trouble, they can often find any reason to do so. This provides for extreme accountability.

Another thing thats relavant. Lawsuits keep most Departments accountable too. We get sued all the time. I am currently being sued for $1.8 million dollars by a guy thats sued the Sheriffs Dept two other times. Both times the county has settled the lawsuit out of court for a couple thousand dollars (I don't know the exact amounts.) Undoubtably, this will happen again. I have been investigated thoroughly by Internal Affairs and been cleared of any wrong-doing. However, this guy STILL figures he can get a couple thousand dollars.

A few more lawsuits and the dept. will figure it can save money by letting me go...even if I've done nothing wrong. You can imagine that my "accountability rating" will soar if the Dept. has to start putting out extra money.

That's just absurd. If you've been cleared, then there shouldn't be anything done in court.

[Guest]

[buckthesystem]

I basically agree with hr.jr. on this topic. The article is wildly biased in that it tries to portray no-knock deaths as the norm...clearly this is not true.

I would like to add one thing for those of you who keep saying "police have no accountability." Every action and deed committed by a police officer is held accountable. I have seen officers be fired from duty for some relatively small actions. I've never had a job that required as much paperwork and documentation that being an officer requires. Every detail is scrutinized, and any difference in reports is called into question. There is no "down-time" while on duty because EVERYTHING an officer does in uniform is being watched by someone.

I have picked on this post to quote, but it might as well be any of the posts here, except Leonard's. Why does everybody seem to hold the police in such high esteem, far higher than the people they have been given permission to "control"?

AK even credited the Bible with saying that the state has a mandate to administer (their form of) justice? Gee, I really thought the Bible told us that this is God's place to do, and God's alone.

The operative word in all this is ACCOUNTABILITY!!!!![/b] We don't only need accountability from police, but ALL government workers.

Doctors and firemen are subject to accountability, as are all of us if we "make mistakes". What is so special about the police?

Now as some of you are insisting that there IS accountability for actions such as these, where is the accountability for the events that occurred in Waco, Texas in 1993? I believe some of these murderers are even still in their jobs and Janet Reno has even been held up as a "shining example of 'somebody doing their job'" - she is nothing but a dangerous killer.

[apothanein kerdos]

AK even credited the Bible with saying that the state has a mandate to administer (their form of) justice? Gee, I really thought the Bible told us that this is God's place to do, and God's alone.

The Bible makes it clear that the government is the arbiter of justice on earth.

A year or two ago you tried unsuccessfully to argue against this...do you wish to make the same mistake again?

[buckthesystem]

AK even credited the Bible with saying that the state has a mandate to administer (their form of) justice? Gee, I really thought the Bible told us that this is God's place to do, and God's alone.

That's not what I see:

1 Peter 2:13-15 13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

Romans 13:1-7 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Seems to me that it is pretty clear that the governing authorities exist because God has put them there. Accountability? Yes. Thumb our noses at them because we don't like them or agree with them? No. Scripture is very clear. You cannot say "God didn't institute this authority, so I will not submit to it." God has instituted that authority, so we are commanded to submit to it, not ignore it because we don't like it.

Sure, tell the people whose family members died at the hands of these policemen that "the police were only doing the job that God ordained them to do, and your mother/father/brother/ what ever would have committed a sin if they hadn't submitted their life to these wonderful people, who must be far better than you and me because God ordained them to kill.

And why stop there? Why not tell the widow of a Jew who was beaten to death in a street in Europe by the Gestapo, during the Nazi era, that her husband would have committed a sin had he not submitted to being beaten to death. After all, there can be no denying that the Gestapo is an "authority instituted among men" so according to your interpretation it should be revered as it is "established by God". And we cannot just ignore it "because we don't like it".

[The Lorax]

Axxman, has your dept. considered stopping offering settlements. We offered settlements at one time and everyone was filing suit just to get a settlement. We got wise to this and currently we will not settle anything. We will not settle, we will not arbitrate. Everything goes to the Jury. In addition, we file counter suits against the plaintiff for defamation of Character, mental anguish, attorney fees, etc. etc. In addition, Our Internal affairs division heavily investigates them. Over half we successfully prosecute for false swearing. Guess what happened when we started doing this? We quit getting sued. The last suit we litigated we walked away with judgments against the "plaintiff." The Officer he sued has the plaintiff's wages garnished, leins on his house and property, and attachments on his bank accounts. The stupid criminal learned a valuable lesson there. The police department is not going to pay out Bogus suits. We have put many in Jail for the false suits. It works. You just have to have a department that has enough balls to say we do not care if we can settle it for $5000, we are going to trial and win. Even if it costs $100,000 to do it.

There's nothing worse than the dishonest litigants that parasitize on our society. Kudos for standing up to them, hr.

Regarding no-knock searches, I am still not a fan. If some unknown people busted down my door, my first instinct would be to make for the 22 under my bed. I would sit behind the bed with the barrel pointed to the door. There is a pretty good chance someone would catch a bullet before I would realize the invaders were officers of the law. Am I wrong?

[Vickilynn]

Sure, tell the people whose family members died at the hands of these policemen that "the police were only doing the job that God ordained them to do, and your mother/father/brother/ what ever would have committed a sin if they hadn't submitted their life to these wonderful people, who must be far better than you and me because God ordained them to kill.

And why stop there? Why not tell the widow of a Jew who was beaten to death in a street in Europe by the Gestapo, during the Nazi era, that her husband would have committed a sin had he not submitted to being beaten to death. After all, there can be no denying that the Gestapo is an "authority instituted among men" so according to your interpretation it should be revered as it is "established by God". And we cannot just ignore it "because we don't like it".

Buck,

How dare you pervert the truth in this manner for your own agenda. You are accountable for your false words.

[The Lorax]

That chance does exist. A lot depends on the how the warrant is executed. First, let me start by saying that If indeed law enforcement does hit the wrong house, it is terrible for all involved. There is no acceptable excuse for that. I assume you are a 100% law abiding citizen with the exception of traffic violations. (Honestly, who keeps every traffic law?) You and your family are law abiding. Someone busts through your door yelling police. You have every right to doubt that it is the police because they have no reason to be there. However, when a drug house gets raided, they have no doubt it is the police. They know it is coming, they just have no idea when. They know it is the police.

I am with you to an extent. If someone busted though my door in the middle of the night, they would probably get shot. Why? I would be 99% sure it was not the police because they have no reason to be there. No crimes are being or have ever been committed in my residence.

Do not get me wrong, I would never intentionally shoot a law enforcement officer. However, if they came to my house I would be 99% sure they were someone I had arrested trying to take revenge on me and my family and until proven otherwise I would shoot it out with them.

That is why. YOU MUST HAVE THE RIGHT HOUSE! YOU MUST HAVE THE RIGHT HOUSE! YOU MUST HAVE THE RIGHT HOUSE! That can not be said enough times. YOU MUST HAVE THE RIGHT HOUSE!

The No-knock warrant is not the problem. Bad police work is the problem.

OK, this I can agree with.

With the Atlanta case, The woman knew they were the police and she shot at them. Plain and simple. She knew her family dealt drugs from her apartment.

I thought it had been established that the police planted drugs on her after the shooting.

A couple years ago I went to a home to serve an arrest warrant. In marked car, in patrol uniform. Knocked on door, went inside when invited by an 86 year old woman. Informed her grandson he was under arrest for a warrant. He tried to run. We began to fight. As I was cuffing him she stabbed me in the back (vest stopped it) with a butter knife. Instinctively I hit her so hard it broke ribs. I did not know who I was hitting, I just instinctively swung. I thought someone else had come into the room. So, to many it looked like that bad old 6ft 7 in 285 lb cop beat up that old woman. In reality, that old woman tried to kill me. If not for the fact the knife penetrated 2 layers of spectra, it would probably have looked real bad on me. He went to jail on a misd. probation warrant and she went to jail for Aggravated assault on a police officer. Do not let old women fool you. They will do a lot to protect their family.

...Wow.