1 Timothy 2:15

[OopsMartin]

The reason sin is passed down through man is because man, Adam, was not decieved, he outright disobeyed God.

Theory. Scripture does not say that. It does not say that sin is passed down through males for any reason. It does not even say that sin was passed down through Adam. It does say that through one human humanity has been ushered into sin. I read that to mean that Adam being the only other human being alive at that time and being the only one left who had not sinned, when he sinned he ushered the whole of humanity into sin. If the man and been deceived and ate of the fruit first and the woman and eaten out of deliberate sin, then she would have been the one who ushered the whole human race into sin. I

[inhistime]

It

[inhistime]

The reason sin is passed down through man is because man, Adam, was not decieved, he outright disobeyed God.

I can agree with this. The Bible differentiates the kind of sin that Adam committed and the kind of sin that Eve committed. The bible says that Eve fell into sin through deception. She fell into sin, she did not sin in rebellion. In contrast the Bible lists the sin of Adam as that of one dealing treacherously with God. Hosea 6:7 says

"But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me."

Sin then is passed down through Adam's seed through the line of the male. God shows this by requiring all the males in the Old Covenant to be circumcised. All the females were part of the covenant without any cutting off of their flesh. Why is this? It is because the foreskin was said to be a sign of sin and only the males carried the sin where their seed passed through. All of us have been born with the foreskin of the heart that needs to be circumcised by God. It is the foreskin that is a sign of sin and the heart must have the sin dealt with. In the flesh, the foreskin was to be cut off as a sign of sin being dealt with. No male was allowed to be in the covenant without cutting off the foreskin - the thing that symbolized sin. This was to show that the sin nature passes through the male, but when we come into God's family, although the male still passes on the physical sin nature, we have been spiritually "cut off" from that sin nature through Christ.

Clearly, God held Adam to some sort of responsibility for his wife, thus the role of spiritual advisor.

The only responsibility that Adam had for his wife was to bring her up to his level of knowledge. The bible says that Adam was not deceived and that Eve was. The bible also says that Adam was with her when she ate. When God called them both to account, God spoke to Adam in Genesis 3:17 and said that the ground is cursed on his behalf because he listened to his wife's voice. I like how John Piper explains this verse. He says that Adam listened to the voice of his wife while she was being deceived and he did nothing. His responsibility was to give of himself to his wife to help her at the time that she was being hurt through deception. He needed to educate her so that she would not be deceived. But Adam said and did nothing to help her. The ground and the animals are the only things that God curses because these two things are the two things that God used before Eve was created to educate Adam on the difference between God and his creation. I can copy my articles on what Adam saw before Eve was created that are on my blog if anyone is interested.

How did Eve know that they were not to touch the tree, God did not tell her?

We do actually know that God told Eve. How do we know? Because Eve told the serpent that "God has said..." and then she quoted God. She did not say that "Adam said..." She quoted God and she quoted things that God told her that were not said the first time to Adam. Now we can either believe that God told her an additional warning not to even touch the fruit or we can believe that a sinless woman who has no reason to lie told a lie to the serpent. It is reasonable to believe that Eve told the truth because if she added to God's words and God did not say this to her then God had to rebuke her since scripture says that adding to God's words is a serious offense and God will rebuke those who add to his word. When God confronted Eve after she ate the fruit he did not rebuke her for adding to his words neither did he say that she lied or added to his words. We must then believe Eve who spoke the words before she sinned. God's words are either quoted directly in scripture or they are quoted from a person who says "God said". Eve said "God said" and we have no reason to believe that she was lying.

Adam told her because God expected Adam to be Eve's spiritual advisor.

There is no evidence in scripture that Adam told Eve. We do have evidence that God told Eve. It is a tradition that Adam was to be Eve's spiritual adviser but the scripture says nothing of the sort. Eve was never told that she could not make a spiritual decision on her own. She was only told not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

It is obvious that Adam shared this information with her since the Serpent questioned her and she was able to answer knowlegeably.

Eve was able to answer knowledgeably because she says that "God said". Anything other than that is reading into the text something that just isn't there.

[DarkNebulaWelder]

[

How did Eve know that they were not to touch the tree, God did not tell her?

We do actually know that God told Eve. How do we know? Because Eve told the serpent that "God has said..." and then she quoted God. She did not say that "Adam said..." She quoted God and she quoted things that God told her that were not said the first time to Adam. Now we can either believe that God told her an additional warning not to even touch the fruit or we can believe that a sinless woman who has no reason to lie told a lie to the serpent. It is reasonable to believe that Eve told the truth because if she added to God's words and God did not say this to her then God had to rebuke her since scripture says that adding to God's words is a serious offense and God will rebuke those who add to his word. When God confronted Eve after she ate the fruit he did not rebuke her for adding to his words neither did he say that she lied or added to his words. We must then believe Eve who spoke the words before she sinned. God's words are either quoted directly in scripture or they are quoted from a person who says "God said". Eve said "God said" and we have no reason to believe that she was lying.

Ya, but according to the Genesis account, God commands Adam re: the Tree BEFORE Eve was created, so it's not really clear where Eve directly gets her information.

Isn't it possible that Adam told Eve that God told him, and that she was giving a second-hand account of this commandment? No doubt, she would have trusted Adam, taking him at his word that this was God's commandment. You'll notice that the serpent is the one who brings up God first....he does not bring up Adam. Eve is responding directly to the serpent's account of what God has said, so of course, Adam is not even involved in the conversation.

Also, if one is easily deceived, as Eve was, wouldn't this indicate a certain initial lack of understanding?

With this in mind, if God DID command her directly, couldn't one also conclude that Eve may have been confused about God's commandment, and that, for some reason, she misconstrued God's words, and was actually under the misguided notion that God did not want her to touch it?

As such, she wouldn't be willfully adding to the God's word......she would have been confused.

[firehill]

The reason sin is passed down through man is because man, Adam, was not decieved, he outright disobeyed God.

I can agree with this. The Bible differentiates the kind of sin that Adam committed and the kind of sin that Eve committed. The bible says that Eve fell into sin through deception. She fell into sin, she did not sin in rebellion. In contrast the Bible lists the sin of Adam as that of one dealing treacherously with God. Hosea 6:7 says

"But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me."

Sin then is passed down through Adam's seed through the line of the male. God shows this by requiring all the males in the Old Covenant to be circumcised. All the females were part of the covenant without any cutting off of their flesh. Why is this? It is because the foreskin was said to be a sign of sin and only the males carried the sin where their seed passed through. All of us have been born with the foreskin of the heart that needs to be circumcised by God. It is the foreskin that is a sign of sin and the heart must have the sin dealt with. In the flesh, the foreskin was to be cut off as a sign of sin being dealt with. No male was allowed to be in the covenant without cutting off the foreskin - the thing that symbolized sin. This was to show that the sin nature passes through the male, but when we come into God's family, although the male still passes on the physical sin nature, we have been spiritually "cut off" from that sin nature through Christ.

Clearly, God held Adam to some sort of responsibility for his wife, thus the role of spiritual advisor.

The only responsibility that Adam had for his wife was to bring her up to his level of knowledge. The bible says that Adam was not deceived and that Eve was. The bible also says that Adam was with her when she ate. When God called them both to account, God spoke to Adam in Genesis 3:17 and said that the ground is cursed on his behalf because he listened to his wife's voice. I like how John Piper explains this verse. He says that Adam listened to the voice of his wife while she was being deceived and he did nothing. His responsibility was to give of himself to his wife to help her at the time that she was being hurt through deception. He needed to educate her so that she would not be deceived. But Adam said and did nothing to help her. The ground and the animals are the only things that God curses because these two things are the two things that God used before Eve was created to educate Adam on the difference between God and his creation. I can copy my articles on what Adam saw before Eve was created that are on my blog if anyone is interested.

How did Eve know that they were not to touch the tree, God did not tell her?

We do actually know that God told Eve. How do we know? Because Eve told the serpent that "God has said..." and then she quoted God. She did not say that "Adam said..." She quoted God and she quoted things that God told her that were not said the first time to Adam. Now we can either believe that God told her an additional warning not to even touch the fruit or we can believe that a sinless woman who has no reason to lie told a lie to the serpent. It is reasonable to believe that Eve told the truth because if she added to God's words and God did not say this to her then God had to rebuke her since scripture says that adding to God's words is a serious offense and God will rebuke those who add to his word. When God confronted Eve after she ate the fruit he did not rebuke her for adding to his words neither did he say that she lied or added to his words. We must then believe Eve who spoke the words before she sinned. God's words are either quoted directly in scripture or they are quoted from a person who says "God said". Eve said "God said" and we have no reason to believe that she was lying.

Adam told her because God expected Adam to be Eve's spiritual advisor.

There is no evidence in scripture that Adam told Eve. We do have evidence that God told Eve. It is a tradition that Adam was to be Eve's spiritual adviser but the scripture says nothing of the sort. Eve was never told that she could not make a spiritual decision on her own. She was only told not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

It is obvious that Adam shared this information with her since the Serpent questioned her and she was able to answer knowlegeably.

Eve was able to answer knowledgeably because she says that "God said". Anything other than that is reading into the text something that just isn't there.

This is an excellent response and I'm still digesting it all. I have to comment on this for now though:

We do actually know that God told Eve. How do we know? Because Eve told the serpent that "God has said..." and then she quoted God. She did not say that "Adam said..." She quoted God and she quoted things that God told her that were not said the first time to Adam. Now we can either believe that God told her an additional warning not to even touch the fruit or we can believe that a sinless woman who has no reason to lie told a lie to the serpent.

For those of the persuation of the assumption that Eve a sinless human being twisted what God said or to put it a different way, that Eve lied about what God said, I wonder, what really would have been the point, motive, reason of her lieing TO THE SERPENT while her husband was with her? There's none!

[firehill]

[

How did Eve know that they were not to touch the tree, God did not tell her?

We do actually know that God told Eve. How do we know? Because Eve told the serpent that "God has said..." and then she quoted God. She did not say that "Adam said..." She quoted God and she quoted things that God told her that were not said the first time to Adam. Now we can either believe that God told her an additional warning not to even touch the fruit or we can believe that a sinless woman who has no reason to lie told a lie to the serpent. It is reasonable to believe that Eve told the truth because if she added to God's words and God did not say this to her then God had to rebuke her since scripture says that adding to God's words is a serious offense and God will rebuke those who add to his word. When God confronted Eve after she ate the fruit he did not rebuke her for adding to his words neither did he say that she lied or added to his words. We must then believe Eve who spoke the words before she sinned. God's words are either quoted directly in scripture or they are quoted from a person who says "God said". Eve said "God said" and we have no reason to believe that she was lying.

Yes, but if one is easily deceived, as Eve was, wouldn't this indicate a certain initial lack of understanding?

With this in mind, couldn't one also conclude that Eve may have been confused about God's commandment, and that, for some reason, she misconstrued God's words, and was actually under the misguided notion that God did not want her to touch it?

As such, she wouldn't be willfully adding to the God's word....she would have a misunderstanding of what it entailed.

EASILY deceived? The arche enemy's attacks can hardly be considered easy for one. For two, you're conjecturing that Eve was easily deceived therefore what indicates a lack of understanding? One doesn't have to be confused about God's commands in order to be deceived by the arche enemy anyway. For what reason then could Eve have been confused about God's command? She QUOTED Him afterall. She was deceived not confused as the bible specificaly says.

[inhistime]

The woman was the second of the Earth creatures to be cursed because she was the second to yield to sin and the devil.

I don't know who wrote this but this is comes across as very degrading to women to lump women (calling her second of the Earth creatures) in with the animals. The animals were cursed but the woman was not cursed neither was the man. And by the way, the woman was the only one of all of creation that was not created from the earth. She was created from the side of the man.

Before the fall she was equal with the man, and childbirth was to be a pleasure without pain, but now she must be ruled by the man and have multiplied pain, sorrow and conception.

God did not say that she "must be ruled by the man". After sin had come into the world, God revealed what the results of sin would be on the relationship between man and woman. God said "your desire will be for your husband". Now most complementarians believe that this means that the woman will want to rule over the man. While I don't agree with this interpretation, to follow it through, then God must be saying that the woman must desire to rule the man. Is that what God said? No, of course not. He said what she will do and he also said what the man will do. You cannot make these a command by God. If they were a command, then the command would have been given to the man not the woman. God didn't say to Eve "He will be commanded to rule over you and you are commanded to be ruled" God predicted the future and he was warning Eve what her life would be like living with a man who had rebelled against God. He neither gave a command directly to Adam to rule nor did he give any command to Eve regarding how she was to respond to the rule of Adam.

Genesis 3:16 says

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

God says that he will do something. What is that? When you look up the actual meanings of the words in the Hebrew you can see something very interesting. When God says that he will "greatly multiple your pain in childbirth" the word "pain" here is different than the "in pain you will bring forth". This first word for pain is the very same word that God uses of Adam when he said in verse 17:

In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

Why is her toil or work increased? Look up the word translated as "childbirth" and you will see that it actually means conception. God said that he would greatly increase her toil and her conception. The KJV accurately translates it as:

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;

Eve was not created to have babies one right after another. But because of sin's entrance into the world the human race was not going to live forever so children must be produced faster so that the world would be populated before the parents die out. As a result Eve's toil - her work - was greatly increased because she had multiple pregnancies. God said that he would greatly multiply her conception and that greatly multiplied her work. It was something that God did to preserve the race but it was not a curse on the woman.

Next God says that "in pain you will bring forth children". It is as a result of God greatly increasing her conception and the morality now being experienced by Eve that causes the pain. It is a result from the changes that God has made to her body, but again God does not say that the pain is a curse. It is a result of what God has to do because Eve is now mortal. This change has caused her to bring forth children in great pain.

Now man is the recognized head of the woman and should be her spiritual advisor

Nowhere does man's headship ever connected to rulership. In fact the head is to give up his life for his wife instead of rule her. Also if God made man her spiritual adviser the one who is to make all of her decisions, then the woman would not be able to become a mature Christian one who has learned how to make wise decisions. This would keep the woman in a child-like state dependent on the man.

[inhistime]

Ya, but according to the Genesis account, God commands Adam re: the Tree BEFORE Eve was created, so it's not really clear where Eve directly gets her information.

It is clear where Eve got her information because Eve said "God said". The bible says that God told Eve directly what she could eat. Genesis 1:28 God says to them....then verse 29 God tells them both what they could eat. If God told her what she could eat directly, then why would he not tell her what she couldn't eat at the same time? Eve tells us "God said..." and I think we should believe her that God told her this.

Isn't it possible that Adam told Eve that God told him, and that she was giving a second-hand account of this commandment?

No this isn't possible. First of all Eve didn't say "Adam said that God said..." She said "God said". Secondly you would have a big problem concerning what she said since God didn't tell Adam when he was first created that he was not allowed to even touch the fruit. Since Eve said quoted God as saying that she was not even to touch the fruit, if God actually didn't say this to her (as she said he did) then either she added to God's word or was so totally confused about a simple command that Adam gave that she was too dumb for words. No, I think we need to just accept the account as it is given. Eve said "God said..."

Eve is responding directly to the serpent's account of what God has said, so of course, Adam is not even involved in the conversation.

Adam should have been involved in the conversation because he knew that it was not true. Adam was not deceived remember? Since his wife was believing a lie, Adam should have defended the truth and stopped his wife from being deceived.

Also, if one is easily deceived, as Eve was, wouldn't this indicate a certain initial lack of understanding?

Adam was created first and had experiences with God that immunized him from Satan's lies. Eve was created after Adam and was not privy to Adam's special experiences with God that taught him about the difference between the creation and God himself. Because she did not have this knowledge that kept Adam from being deceived, she fell into deception. That didn't make her defective or more easily deceived by nature. It meant that she did not have the knowledge that would have kept her from deception.

With this in mind, if God DID command her directly, couldn't one also conclude that Eve may have been confused about God's commandment, and that, for some reason, she misconstrued God's words, and was actually under the misguided notion that God did not want her to touch it?

No, because God did tell her not to touch the fruit. There is no way around it. Either Eve lied about what God said or she told the truth. If she told the truth then this is exactly what God said to her. If she lied then what reason did she have to lie and why was she never reprimanded by God for lying? Also why did none of the biblical authors attribute the sin of lying to Eve if she added to God's words?

As such, she wouldn't be willfully adding to the God's word......she would have been confused.

To say that she would have been confused would have made the first woman to have the mind of a small child. The command was simple. Don't eat the fruit of that tree. If she was confused by that simple command then she wasn't a help meet for Adam but instead she would have been a detriment to him. He would have had to be watching her every minute of the day because what else would she be confused by?

[DarkNebulaWelder]

[

How did Eve know that they were not to touch the tree, God did not tell her?

We do actually know that God told Eve. How do we know? Because Eve told the serpent that "God has said..." and then she quoted God. She did not say that "Adam said..." She quoted God and she quoted things that God told her that were not said the first time to Adam. Now we can either believe that God told her an additional warning not to even touch the fruit or we can believe that a sinless woman who has no reason to lie told a lie to the serpent. It is reasonable to believe that Eve told the truth because if she added to God's words and God did not say this to her then God had to rebuke her since scripture says that adding to God's words is a serious offense and God will rebuke those who add to his word. When God confronted Eve after she ate the fruit he did not rebuke her for adding to his words neither did he say that she lied or added to his words. We must then believe Eve who spoke the words before she sinned. God's words are either quoted directly in scripture or they are quoted from a person who says "God said". Eve said "God said" and we have no reason to believe that she was lying.

Yes, but if one is easily deceived, as Eve was, wouldn't this indicate a certain initial lack of understanding?

With this in mind, couldn't one also conclude that Eve may have been confused about God's commandment, and that, for some reason, she misconstrued God's words, and was actually under the misguided notion that God did not want her to touch it?

As such, she wouldn't be willfully adding to the God's word....she would have a misunderstanding of what it entailed.

EASILY deceived? The arche enemy's attacks can hardly be considered easy for one. For two, you're conjecturing that Eve was easily deceived therefore what indicates a lack of understanding? One doesn't have to be confused about God's commands in order to be deceived by the arche enemy anyway. For what reason then could Eve have been confused about God's command? She QUOTED Him afterall. Is there any one verse in the entire bible where God himself is specificaly QUOTED, FALSELY? Impossible. Even the serpent's words were not a QUOTE.

Well, there are really only 4 options concerning how Eve was commanded, and what went wrong in the translation:

(1) She was quoting God, who gave her a different commandment than He gave Adam....this I do not believe, as we know that God's word doesn't change, including His commandments

(2) She was quoting Adam, who quoted God wrongly....I don't believe this, either, just because if Adam had quoted God wrongly, God surely would have condemned him for misquoting Him to Eve....i.e. adding to God's Word, which was brought up earlier.

This leaves 2 other options....that she misquoted either Adam, or misquoted God. Now, the Bible doesn't specify which one of them directly commanded Eve, but it goes without saying that, whomever it was, she misunderstood the commandment. If she hadn't, surely God would have repromanded Eve for willfully sinning by intentionally misquoting His commandment.

Therefore, it only seems logical to me that Eve completely misunderstood the commandment.

There is willful sin AND unwillful sin, after all.

I mean, it was imperatively implied by God that the tree was STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, which perhaps she mistook as having NO PHYSICAL CONTACT with it, whatsoever....especially if Adam had re-iterated the commandment to her. Perhaps he did it in such a way that left room for error.

Either she misunderstood the commandment, or she was willfully lying.....it seems obvious that it's the former than the latter, because the issue of lying was not even brought up.

[inhistime]

Firehill said:

For those of the persuation of the assumption that Eve a sinless human being twisted what God said or to put it a different way, that Eve lied about what God said, I wonder, what really would have been the point, motive, reason of her lieing TO THE SERPENT while her husband was with her? There's none!

Excellent point! Can you imagine Eve lying to the serpent for no reason and no motive at all with her husband standing by her side? For those who think she had a reason, I would sure like to hear it. I think we had best just agree with scripture and see that Eve was never charged with any other sin except eating of the fruit. I think that says it all.