OopsMartin

I popped into a chat room once or twice a long long time ago. Too many people talking at once. couldn't find a thread of reason to follow. Don't know how you guys do it.

Nah, women express themselves with words more. or so I've been told. I just nod my head and shrug my shoulders. hehe

I agree. Consider that in real life, sometimes that is all the conversation between men that happens. A nod here, a tweek of the head, a lifting of the eyebrow, lopsided smile, frown. A lot of men do most of their "talking" that way. Oh and sometimes we even throw in a hand gesture.

I don't think we'll ever know who are the brightest. Sometimes the wisest and brightest are those who don't get involved with the race. Some individuals hidden away in some remote locations quietly living an ordinary life, may be the real genius's of our time. As far as academics, we men only thought we had the corner on it because we didn't allow or encourage the women to participate. It was clever of us, but now we've been found out.

Generally, women who go for something like that do it for the attention it gets from men. You must ask, is this what I want? To have men look at me in a sexual manner imagining all kinds of things? When we know that every unclean thought is not a good thing? When we sow to the flesh, we reap from the flesh. But, spiritual creatures cast fleshly things away. Women are also responsible and carry a burden for men in the way they dress. Women know that men are easily heated by what they see. Therefore, holy comportment in all things is efficacious. Those with natural endowments must dress them in a way they do not become a stumbling block for brothers. What would Jesus say? Those who know Him well, know! Those who are just getting to know Him, must take the advice from those who know Him. My advice? Don't do it. The least of the issues on that subject are health-related. I would tend to think it a bad idea also. We men don't need breasts of certain sizes. It's the whole person, especially the inner person that makes for a meaningful lasting relationship. Men who want certain exclusive physical characteristics in their "women" are shallow and need to grow up. Other than that if there are extenuating circumstances that make it conducive to a sense of security for a woman, that is between her, her husband and the doctors. However, and a big however, I'm not sure that breast augmentations are really that safe or healthy. I would consider that a very big concern.

thinking of numbers.... I cannot remember how many unhappy marriages I've become aware of over the last 38 years as a Christian, but immediately I can think of four Christian marriages (and probably more if I sat down and wrote them out) in which both physical, emotional and mental abuse was happening. One of them... OK that's five.... the husband beat his wife so badly so much that she ended up having rods put in her back and lived with continual pain. Another man, a pastor no less, would throw his wife around and choke her in anger. Another man drove his entire family away from God... son ended up homosexual, one daughter into pornography, the other afraid of men, wife became an alchoholic. The wife and one daughter have since (since they divorced) come back to the Lord. I watched that family for over 25 years, unable to talk any sense into the husband, unable to reach the wife (which is often near impossible in cases of abuse). The husband, whom I rarely see now, has become strange, and less intent on claiming himself a Christian. In all of the cases that I can remember, one of the characteristics that tied them all together was the idea that the husband ruled his family, and that he was the final decision maker. Also, that women were primarily sensual beings which is why they should be only or primarily involved with household and children. I'm pretty sure that all of them also believed that women were emotionally inclined and men were logically inclined which was why men should decide important issues and the direction of the family. Talking about reporting cases, only one that I knew of ever reported the abuse (and that only once in spite of multiple attacks). Most felt that reporting the abuse would only insure that they would get double portions when the husband came back home. And thinking of reporting rapes..... most rapes are never reported. And they are not even talked about for many years later. Most sexual attacks on children are not reported because the children don't know how to talk about them until years later. IMO these things happen because of an overall lack of respect for fellow human beings. If children were looked at as miniature adults, very human, intelligent and insightful, maybe just perhaps we could take back the numbers. Also, if women were truly viewed as just very human just somewhat different, with the same intelligence, insightfulness of men and no more or less sensual than men, we might be able to take back some of the numbers of abuses toward women. And a great deal of the problems TODAY are because of how women are portrayed in mags, movies, advertising, etc. It infuses the minds of both men and women. But remember that all this was happening even before printing and movies. they are the result of the inward sin of humanity. P.S. I hope I didn't upset anyone with too much of the particulars.

Correct. I think I may have hijacked this thing, and for that I apologize. They are indeed separate issues. Although recent stats are pretty discouraging. 25 years ago incidents of abuse within a marriage were 1 in 10 marriages. Today it is 1 in 4. I think as a whole, society has lost respect for all things sacred as situational ethics and moral equivalence have become the world view of choice of this generation. Sad. Actually, we really have little idea how bad the issue of marital abuse is. 25 years ago it was shameful to speak of it (and yet they were more open than the previous generation), even for the victims. Same thing for rapes, and child abuse. All these things were covered up. Now we are beginning to have an idea to how wide spread it is, only because victims are talking. Even so not all are talking. And not all are willing to openly accuse their abusers. Abuse has always been around. And because of the shameful secrecy it's always been worse than we imagined. I believe it arises out of the concept of the powerful controling the weaker. We like to think that we are benevolent rulers, but really humans are just too sinful to manage unaccountable power. Look at what happens to our movie stars. How many can manage their wealth and the power it contains in holiness? Few. Those who do make great sacrifices and work hard to find integrity.

. Hey, waiting is good. Excellent. While you are waiting just keep on keeping on studying, seeking, praying, rejoicing in God. Even though I know that I'm doing in general the things God wants, He often gives me sabbaticals or breaks. We need rests and respites from the storms. Dogs are good too. Sabbaticals huh? You are exempt from this question as you cannot get any more "personal" with God than where you are in your life... Blessings LOL thanks. but that is not really true. It seems that just when I think I'm settled doing the work God has for me, He will change tracks on me, tell me I'm done here and now maybe I've work over there. blessings to you too.

. Hey, waiting is good. Excellent. While you are waiting just keep on keeping on studying, seeking, praying, rejoicing in God. Even though I know that I'm doing in general the things God wants, He often gives me sabbaticals or breaks. We need rests and respites from the storms. Dogs are good too.

Wonderful testimony damo. God is able. Continue to work to become the man of God, that God would have you to be. I'm proud to know you. It's a tough road, but walking it will reap good results for your future.

Seems to me that I remember the word translated "adultery" actually covered a wide range of domestic and sexual abuses and sinful actions, including pornography. Haven't looked it up lately. Perhaps someone else has. Even with the Scriptures in hand, I think a Christian needs to humbly approach God with much prayer asking for God wisdom, and being absolutely certain that every other avenue had been exhausted. And I would also say, we must be certain that our spouse has actually turned their heart away from us.

i can tell ya from experience, words can kill just like a fist can. I suffered 6 heart attacks the last one almost doing me in for good. Took far too many years of verbal abuse from my wife. Finally had enough and sent her packing. I wouldn't be here today if i had of tried to do it the churchs way, and stay married. I realized i didn't love her enough to let her send me to the grave. VERY sorry to hear this. Glad you survived. I've often wondered if emotional and mental abuse has longer lasting effects than plain physical abuse. Thing is that physical abuse is always accompanied by a great deal of harsh verbal abuse. Having talked with many women and a few men that have survived, it seems that the forced subjugation is one of the things that damages a persons psyche.

I see a disconnect there. You are correctly noting that Christ's love for the church is equated or compared to the intimate self giving relationship that Paul just painted a picture of in chapter five. But the picture cannot be reversed to say that our human marriages and the frail incomplete selfish love we most often share shadows a picture of God's love. (use that in an evangelistic message and few would ever become Christians). Our marriages are not a picture of God and human, man being god and woman being human, because we are both only human. It's a dangerous idea to equate a husband as representing God to his wife. Only Christ represents God to us. Christ as the God-Man the model of perfection and ultimate Love CAN indeed emulate for us the love that a husband should have for his wife and the responsive trust, support and yieldedness that a wife would gladly give in return.

Forgiving a person is one thing. Their repentance is another thing. If they do not, have not repented of wrong actions then wisdom says you be wary. After one puts their hands in a fire, if the fire is not put out, we cannot pretend that it doesn't exist and put our hand in the fire again. Forgiving them frees you to love them again without bitterness. Love is wise. God's wisdom can guide us to still love a person who is in deliberate sin, without foolishly allowing them to harm us and/or others.

If you read the whole chapter five you will see verse one admonishes all to love sacrificially. Then in vs. 21 Paul admonishes all to submit one to another. 1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God. Paul then does an interesting thing. Leaving out the verb in vs. 21 he slides the attitude of mutual submission right over the to woman as if to suggest that this attitude is to continue in the intimate relationship of marriage. And then a few verses later he brings the husband back to verse one and admonishes him to show the same sacrificial love toward his wife as if to also suggest that this type of self giving love is to continue even in intimate relationships. This idea of course, was shocking to the Greeks because they did not usually marry for love but to continue a gene pool. I am of the opinion that the direction of his words was to strengthen that which was weak. Men did not generally "love" their wives sacrificially then. Women did not generally freely (they were compelled in various ways) yield to or give their support and respect (vs. 33) to their husbands. In addition, as if that were not enough, Paul creates an interdependence. He admonishes the wife to view her husband as her head, and admonishes the husband to view his wife as his own body. Such a picture is cemented by verse 31 where he reminds them the purpose of marriage is to become one flesh, two become as one. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." Thus by sacrificial love (doing for the benefit of the other rather than self), freely given submission (trust, respect, support, honor, yieldedness, etc.), considering each other as part of ones own being, we are more able to dwell and live as one new entity = us.

As a man I find some problems with the patriarchal idea of "final decision maker". By always having the vote that counts, whenever we disagree, I get my way. Now I may believe I have good reasons for it, but so does the woman. Always being able to be the decision maker does not cause growth in the relationship IMO. When two committed couples have to consider the other and come to agreement, it stretches both parties in character, humility, and basically makes them work. I've found that praying together will often bring up a solution that neither of us have thought of. God is capable and always creative. In the end, the harmony that results from two who expose their true concerns and come to mutual agreement (even if that means deciding to let the other person decide) is more productive of real unity, than one person always having to give in, and one person always getting the final vote. However, I acknowledge that some couples can only operate at that level. But Scripture does not prescribe such a model. In my vote patriarchy is not a preferred model even though we have examples of it.

that is my take on it also. Though you might get some flack from cessationists about it.

Well said Sherman. You are precisely exactly correct.

It is a caution agains entering into binding relationships of any kind with unbelievers, where the nature of that binfing relationship might force one to have to choose between the binding relationship and ones relationship with Jesus Exactly. Even where there is no force involved there is always pressure to conform to things that would be not in the best interest of a Christian. Conformity is the bane of social activities in society.

Wonderful testimony. And I agree with the fact that Christians are no longer under the curse. However, I cannot see that 1 Tim. 2:15 is really about having or not having pain in child bearing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the context. I certainly commend the women in researching out Gen. 3:16 and curses and their application to help women have easier birthings.

Thanks for the warning, EricH. Very kind of you. I

I've noticed that egalitarians here like to use the phrase "teach correct biblical doctrine" a lot. What exactly is the point of this? It seems a little redundant since if a doctrine is biblical, it is correct. Is there such a thing as incorrect biblical doctrine? Suppose a nonbeliever is teaching some correct biblical doctrine. I'm curious, would you give him ten minutes in your church's pulpit? Would you let him teach from there every other Sunday? Maybe he could teach a Sunday school class, right? -Neopatriarch Pretty much everyone is aware that 1 Timothy chapter one is about those who were teaching incorrect doctrine. Yet, gender hierarchalists want to say that women may not teach correct Biblical doctrine to men. So Firehill is just wanting to know how that is achieved from the texts.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but most of the arguments in this link have been answered here at Worthy. At first, I thought to necro some old posts to show where many of the issues raised in this link have been discussed already, but instead I think I will post a good treatment of 1 Timothy 2:8-15: Women in the Church: 1 Timothy 2:8-15 Part 2 Part 3 One little caveat: I'm not sure I agree with him on 2:15 referring to the birth of Christ (maybe I'm wrong though). Nevertheless, his treatment is excellent overall. -Neopatriarch LOL Neo, this thread could run for two years and never have all the concerns "answered". Biblical scholars have studied 2:15 for years and still there is no absolute agreement on it. Same with the rest of the chapter. And just putting forth party lines doesn't help. I don't consider that real discussion. In reality these issues are difficult to have real discussion on. There are always those who have to hurl their views and slash at anyone who disagrees. And this is why discussion should continue. Not talking about it, never settled any problems in my family.