Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 [ I do not say that women should be ordained or not ordained, Vickilynn. I am searching in this. I have only known a couple of women pastors. My knowledge of those was only very slight making it impossible to form any reasonable opinions about them and their respective ministries. On the other hand I have known many male pastors over the years and have sat under 8 different ones including my first a RC (Roman Catholic) priest. Two of the eight were really so out of line with God's will that He led me to leave their congregations because of them. This is really a big problem in this thread. Is the issue whether or not a woman has a vibrant ministry that appears to be fruitful or is it following God's qualifications laid out in the Bible for offices in the church? Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread. The issue is not whether or not they are good or poor pastors or whether a woman is an otherwise good pastor. This is not an exercise in pragmatism or what works. sw sw, if positions of authority were as clearly demonstrated as you say throughout this thread to everyone involved in this thread, it likely would have ended a while back. It continues probably because difference of opinion or doubt still exist here. No it continues because many love the world more than the Word. sw Yes, and love of the world causes differences of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Someone I know who I trust said that in churches that start ordaining women as pastors, within 2 years of doing so have also ordained homosexual pastors. I'm not sure how true or accurate that statement is, but I trust the person who told me and at this point have no reason to doubt his word. ~ Regards, PA actually, if that were true, there would be more "homosexuals" trying to pastor..... there are several (denominations as some would say) that do ordain women and have not even remotely concidered those that are living in sin ( homosexuals for instance ) The Assemblies is one that has had women working in the ministry for a very long time, and yet, the women have to stand to the heavy standard of living an upright and blameless life, as their male counterparts do.... a person livng in sin is not living an upright nor a blameless life..... a person can be innocent and not be blameless.... there is a differance.... blameless means there is no way anyone can point fingers... a person that is innocent can do things to attract undue, unwarrented attention and bad publicity.... ( such as going to a bar every day after work and not drinking anything but soda, the appearance is not blameless.... ) anyways, the 2 year thing is not correct.... mike Actually, there are many denominations that have ordained women in pastoral and associated positions for at least a hundred years. I saw a list once. Long list. It included Quakers, Assembly of God, Church of God, Foursquare, Methodist and several others I don't recollect at the moment. In the 1800's when women fought for the right to vote and other privileges, along with the fight for the release of slaves, it did open more doors for women in the near future. White males were the prejudicial preferreds of most of the world for many eons. We have the history of communism and the KKK's to remind us of that. You'd think by now that we would realize it is best if everyone earn their privileges and recognition by proving their worthiness instead of having select groups handed privileges they don't deserve. At least you are now being honest. You are no longer trying to twist God's word on the subject to fit your personal agenda. You are now being honest enough to argue from the unbelieving world's perspective. And your prejudice against males is also coming through loud and clear. Women rulers in the world have not shown themselves to be any less oppressive than men so your reasoning there (nice KKK and communism examples) is exceedingly flawed. sw MOI? prejudiced against my own gender...... ahahahahahaha unbeLIEVable. hehehehehe Let's just say that I'm am prejudiced against all negative prejudicial positions, no matter who they harm and who they show preferential treatment for precluding Biblical sinful behavior. hehehehe that was a good one. talk about reaching. And my personal "agenda" is God's Truths that set the captives free. Let's get down to the nitty gritty dude. Which of the feminine denominations are you with? And yes, your statement reflected bias against males whether you are one or not. But then again many weak men in feminist denominations have decided to allow women to take over their church just like you. That is essentially how it happened. And based on your prior post, blaming men for the world's problems, apparently you have bought into their feminine world view. Step up to the plate and be a man and take your church back. sw feminist denominations??? which ones have not allowed women to pastor now? even the Baptist have, there are not many that have, but they have.... if you look at all the denominations, you will find that they all pick and choose which parts of the Bible to accept and which parts to reject..... there is not a single denomination that has not rejected parts of the Word of God..... one may say you can not have musical instruments in the service of God, another might say that speaking in tongues is no longer for today, yet another may say that only certain people can be pastors, and others say that anyone called can, another may put massive restrictions on people to keep them bound by rules rules and more rules..... another might say a person has to confess each and every sin before a man before they are forgiven, and they may have to do it on a regular basis... another says that communion is only for the "paperwork/registered" members and not open for the entire body of Christ.... another may even say that you are not saved unless you are baptised, another may not allow a person to join their fellowship unless they have been baptised into their denomination (even though they have already professed their faith and accepted Christ and have already been baptised....) there are none that are perfect those that accept women ministering will not be moved, and those that do not accept it will not be moved... not by man anyways.... there are women that i will listen to speak, and there are some that i will not..... there are men that i will listen to speak, and there are some that i will not..... my wife and me have modeled our work after another couple, for we were impressed by the way they allowed the Lord to work through them.... especially at alter calls.... she would take one side, and he would take the other side of the alter area.... no one was allowed to minister unless they were called upon and the women would be on one side, and the men on the other.... all the ministers/elders would be called to the alter area, but again, unless directed by either him or his wife, no one was to do anything.... you may think this is a bit rigged but, there were more workings happening then i have seen in other ways.... why???? well, you have some that will not be spiritually ready and will actually dampen the Spirits work..... the husband would move along the men and speak with each one, find what they were seeking, and call a peticular male ( or two ) to minister to that peticular man..... his wife would be doing the same with the ladies.... there might be a time also, when the husband would call upon his wife to come and assist him with a peticular situation, and also in the reverse..... she would call upon him to assist her with a situation.... it was not a freeforall..... there have been times, i would not go to the alter to minister, but rather would stand back, and plead for those that were going to the alter, some times i would do nothing more then to walk and stand behind the person that the pastor was ministering to...... there were times that the pastor would send the alterworkers (and other ministers and elders ) to step back from the person(s) he was working with, for one reason or other.... am I for women ministers/pastors? or am I against them? well, it actually depends, if the governing authority says NO.... then i say they should not push the issue, but should be submissive to the governing authority..... if the governing authority says YES, then i say allow them to be submissive to the governing authority... as Christ said...... IF THEY ARE NOT AGAINST US, THEN THEY ARE FOR US.... as he spoke to His disciples when they rebuked others for casting out demons and healing in the Name if Christ and they were not walking with them, (or following along as they were ) are these women against Christ???? are these women preaching/teaching Christ???? if they are, they are not against Christ.... if an assistant pastor, is doing what he feels God wants, as he believes God is leading, but it goes against the head pastor, he should be submissive to the head pastor, or he will cause a division among the church and actually cause the chuch to split or even fall...... who is for Christ? who is not? even those TV evangelist, the ones tha tpeople jump on for not going to all the sick wards and healing everyone.... first off, it is not them that heal, and second, how do we know where God is leading them.... next why are we scoffing.... and who is placed in authroity over them???? who is responsible for all our leaders???? for all our pastors????? GOD is...... those that say they only fall under the AUTHORITY of GOD, are in for a great fall, they are actually in rebellion against what the Lord has set before them..... mike This is bogus. Many denominations still make every effort to follow God's Word and do not ordain women. No denomination or non-denomination is inerrant because sin taints us but those who have gone down the dark road of women's ordination have exhibited a complete disdain for God's word as they twist and torture it to justify their feminist agenda. All you have to do is follow this thread and see how they abuse the Bible to justify themselves. Its a scandal. sw Yes, the sharp two edged sword cuts both ways doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletprayers Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Part of the problem here is that some are going by what others have told them to believe. They have not researched the Scriptures themselves. When people just accept what others say without doing as the Bereans and searching the Scriptures for themselves, they accept other's preconceived ideas and then build again on that until its gathered so much extra baggage as to be really nonsensical and confusing. Someone not in their circles is often more able to see the confusion than the ones in the middle of it. Those who just repeat what others have reasoned out, really don't understand much of what they are saying. Heb. 5:11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Every Christian is supposed to grow into the maturity of the stature of Christ. Every Christian is supposed to grow beyond being fed the reasonings of others (predigested milk) and be able to see and reason for himself the Word of truth knowing how to rightly divide Scripture. Those who simply repeat what others have told them are still babes being fed milk. Without reasoning things out for ourselves, searching all the Scriptures (not just repeating pieces of sentences helicoptered out of their contextual home) we don't have enough real understanding to reason it out to others. No the problem comes when those searching the scriptures try to make them fit into todays preconceived notion that women have somehow been picked on for 2000 + years and the teachings for all those years were wrong. Homosexuality, adultery, fornication, women preachers "in a church setting" have been taught against from scripture since its beginnings, but now all of those things have invaded us as a society and there are those who twist them to their peril. Just because "society" is trying to make them acceptable does not mean that God has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread. 1 Timothy 3 isn't even talking about shepherds (pastors). Paul used different Greek words there. And in Ephesians 4 there are no limitations of the gifts placed on women. Show my your resume concerning Greek language studies and explain why your conclusions differ from every credible theologian in church history on this. Oh of course, they are all sexists. sw sw, would a doctorate in Greek language studies make a difference to you? WHo decides which theologian are are credible and which are not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Let's get down to the nitty gritty dude. Which of the feminine denominations are you with? And yes, your statement reflected bias against males whether you are one or not. But then again many weak men in feminist denominations have decided to allow women to take over their church just like you. That is essentially how it happened. And based on your prior post, blaming men for the world's problems, apparently you have bought into their feminine world view. Step up to the plate and be a man and take your church back. sw Well dude, I don't know any feminist denominations. There may be some masculinist denominations though, that would be churches that are hard lined patricarchal.: As for me, I'm a charismatic So. Baptist. Some of us ordain women and some of us don't. Most don't. Weak men. LOL I've always thought the really weak men were the most threatened by women who are smart and skilled. Strong women don't threaten me. Blaming men for the worlds problems. Hmmmm you mean that all our patriarchal societies with strong male leadership who warred against each other for who knows what reasons aren't responsible for the results of their strong male decisions? Come on. Of course men are primarily responsible for the leadership they exercise. When women exercise leadership they are responsible for the good and bad of it too. But we all know that know matter how many skilled and gifted female leaders there are, there will always be more male leaders than females. that means that males will always be primarily responsible for the ills of the world. Comes with the territory. But really sw, let's knock off the personal attacks and get back to disagreeing about Bibilical interpretations. Calling me names just doesn't impress me nor does it make me question my years of research on the subject at hand. :: "And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?" I Cor 8:11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 And we who are desiring to be like Him so that we can see Him as He is, if one of us happens to be a pastor of a flock of Jesus' people would he/she not be attempting to follow His example? Shalom Rumple, No. Jesus did not ordain women pastors. Women who want to live like Jesus should follow His commands as well as His example. No one "just happens" to be a pastor Rumple. It is a serious thing. And something that the Scriptures do not support. VickiLynn, Jesus didn't ordain anyone including male pastors. Ordination rituals were an invention of the Catholic church. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Yes I knew it would end up being the Catholics fault. When did they "invent" Bishops Deacons and Elders and Paul's clear instructions about who they should be and who should be an overseer and who should not be one? I think part of the confusion as I have watched this debate unfold does come from Church organization or lack of organization. If you do not have a consistent Church Body in need of governance and leadership, then the idea of who should be appointed in leadership is really not relevant. If there is no such thing as the Office of the Key's then I guess I can see how strange it must sound to argue about an office being reserved for a female or a male, as there is no offices to worry about. The more I see the twisting and turning of the Word to fit our modern ideas, the more I seem to veer toward a pre-Vatican II feeling. Would Luther recognize what he has wrought? The RCC certainly is flawed on some basic issues, but indeed their current Pope has made the case of their being the protector of scripture a guardian from the blowing in the wind of protestant shifting understanding, and I think he has a point on that. If there is no respect for any tradition, if there is no respect for the thousands of years of Christian thought and individual Christians, which came before us, then of course we are going to continually re-interpret the Word of God to fit our own modern understandings, as if we were the first believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread. 1 Timothy 3 isn't even talking about shepherds (pastors). Paul used different Greek words there. And in Ephesians 4 there are no limitations of the gifts placed on women. Show my your resume concerning Greek language studies and explain why your conclusions differ from every credible theologian in church history on this. Oh of course, they are all sexists. sw sw, would a doctorate in Greek language studies make a difference to you? WHo decides which theologian are are credible and which are not? When people like you have to twist and torture every major Bible translation by claiming the words don't really mean what they say because you disagree with all of those translators of the Greek, then I think you might consider you are the one that is in error. I am far from the only poster on here that accuses of you twisting Scripture to meet your agenda. Even posters I disagree with on many other things agree with me on this one. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletprayers Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted July 29, 2007 And we who are desiring to be like Him so that we can see Him as He is, if one of us happens to be a pastor of a flock of Jesus' people would he/she not be attempting to follow His example? Shalom Rumple, No. Jesus did not ordain women pastors. Women who want to live like Jesus should follow His commands as well as His example. No one "just happens" to be a pastor Rumple. It is a serious thing. And something that the Scriptures do not support. VickiLynn, Jesus didn't ordain anyone including male pastors. Ordination rituals were an invention of the Catholic church. Amen! Ahh yes, the last steps in the tap dance, of "I can't defend it" so lets blame it on the Catholics....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 And we who are desiring to be like Him so that we can see Him as He is, if one of us happens to be a pastor of a flock of Jesus' people would he/she not be attempting to follow His example? Shalom Rumple, No. Jesus did not ordain women pastors. Women who want to live like Jesus should follow His commands as well as His example. No one "just happens" to be a pastor Rumple. It is a serious thing. And something that the Scriptures do not support. VickiLynn, Jesus didn't ordain anyone including male pastors. Ordination rituals were an invention of the Catholic church. Amen! Ahh yes, the last steps in the tap dance, of "I can't defend it" so lets blame it on the Catholics....................... While I acknowledge the real problems within Roman Catholicism, anti-Catholic bigotry is alive and well and resides today in both the feminists and fundamentalist churches. To bolster their arguments for women pastors, they must deal with 2000 years of male only ordination in the orthodox catholic church so they attack what they consider the source of it. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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