Who is Israel?

[firehill]

My point was that the primary definition of Israel (for our purposes in this thread) applies to the physical descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

I thought the purpose of this thread is to answer 'Who is Israel?' Which is what I'm trying to get to.

Are you saying the above for the purpose of meaning that only physical Israelites INHERET the blessings of Abraham? What about those who joined israel in the OT? Did they get to share in the same inheritance??? Will they when resurrected?

If not, didn't I already explain that in Galatians 4 Paul explains that the divided between SONSHIP is what had been demolished, thereby who is heir to the promises of God? There is neither jew/gentile, slave/free, male/female IF one belongs to Christ because then one is a SON and if a SON then one is an hier.

Not trying to go in circles here but are we back to the issue of who inherits what?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Rom 11:8-11 As the scripture says, "God made their minds and hearts dull; to this very day they cannot see or hear." (9) And David says, "May they be caught and trapped at their feasts; may they fall, may they be punished! (10) May their eyes be blinded so that they cannot see; and make them bend under their troubles at all times." (11) I ask, then: When the Jews stumbled, did they fall to their ruin? By no means! Because they sinned, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous of them.

Isn't this what we are seeing in this forum????

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

They do not constitute a "spritual Israel."

ALL in the faith then constitute LITERAL Israel? AS in, just like the gentile who accepted the faith in the OT was no longer considered a gentile but rather an Israelite?

Okay, for the four millionth time, Gentile believers are part of Israel. That does not mean they are not Gentiles. One's DNA did not change. They were simply treated as the native born Israelite was treated and had full access to all the privileges and rights of a native born.

QUOTE

They are simply part of Israel.

Here's where I see a breakdown occure. First you and I agree that ALL are Israel in the OT (jew and gentile that accepted their faith). Would you now say then that those gentiles who were NO LONGER gentiles once they accepted the faith in the OT because at that point they are considered Israelites were ONLY PART of Israel? Is that how they were to be considered?

Gentile is used two ways in the Scripture. Gentile could simply refer to one who is not a physical descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It was also used to refer to pagans. They were no longer Gentiles in that they were not pagans as one cannot be a pagan and believe in the true God. However, they were still Gentiles who had joined Israel. They remained Gentiles but lived as Israelites. They were expected to live peaceably among the Children of Israel and the Children of Israel were expected to treat them kindly and to accept them as they would a native born Israelite.

I've a question concerning 'biblical Israel'. Did not biblical Israel in the OT consitute even those gentiles who became Israelites? Is the biblical Israel of the OT the same as the biblical Israel of the NT?

"Israel" in the New Testament, appears 71 times. In each of those references the word "Israel" is used in the normative sense. It is always applied to biblical Israel. It is never used ot refer to any other entity.

Paul didn't mean for 'the church' to be a predominately gentile organization, yes?

No, what Paul's metaphor did not make room for was a Church that separted its self from biblical Israel and to declare its self to be the "true Israel" or the "spiritual Israel" that supplants biblical Israel.

[Guest shiloh357]

My point was that the primary definition of Israel (for our purposes in this thread) applies to the physical descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

I thought the purpose of this thread is to answer 'Who is Israel?' Which is what I'm trying to get to.

Are you saying the above for the purpose of meaning that only physical Israelites INHERET the blessings of Abraham? What about those who joined israel in the OT? Did they get to share in the same inheritance??? Will they when resurrected?

You and Horizon are both a couple of broken records, firehill. I said the primary definition (with respect to the OT) for this thread is that Israel is comprised of the twelve tribes descended from Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. That is the normative sense of the term. I was responding to the discussion of how Israel is primarily defined in the OT. If you think you can manage it, please keep my remarks in their context.

[firehill]

Okay, for the four millionth time, Gentile believers are part of Israel. That does not mean they are not Gentiles. One's DNA did not change. They were simply treated as the native born Israelite was treated and had full access to all the privileges and rights of a native born.

Ofcourse their DNA didn't change Shilo. Come on now. I'm not disagreeing with you here. Okay. So then, so they had full access to ALL the privileges and rights of a native born meaning ALL, EVERYTHING, including ALL the promises of God, yes?

They are simply part of Israel.

Which means what? In what way are they NOT part of Isreal?

They were expected to live peaceably among the Children of Israel and the Children of Israel were expected to treat them kindly and to accept them as they would a native born Israelite.

So they were considered an Israelite BUT they weren not considered children of Israel, children of God even though they joined their faith???

"Israel" in the New Testament, appears 71 times. In each of those references the word "Israel" is used in the normative sense. It is always applied to biblical Israel. It is never used ot refer to any other entity.

Your response above didn't answer my questions. So here they are again. Did not biblical Israel in the OT consitute even those gentiles who became Israelites? Is the biblical Israel of the OT the same as the biblical Israel of the NT?

No, what Paul's metaphor did not make room for was a Church that separted its self from biblical Israel and to declare its self to be the "true Israel" or the "spiritual Israel" that supplants biblical Israel.

First I still need you to tell me what you say biblical israel is that way I can reply to your above statement. Was biblical Israel in the OT just the jews or also those who joined their faith thereby becoming 'Israelites'?

[firehill]

My point was that the primary definition of Israel (for our purposes in this thread) applies to the physical descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

I thought the purpose of this thread is to answer 'Who is Israel?' Which is what I'm trying to get to.

Are you saying the above for the purpose of meaning that only physical Israelites INHERET the blessings of Abraham? What about those who joined israel in the OT? Did they get to share in the same inheritance??? Will they when resurrected?

You and Horizon are both a couple of broken records, firehill. I said the primary definition (with respect to the OT) for this thread is that Israel is comprised of the twelve tribes descended from Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. That is the normative sense of the term. I was responding to the discussion of how Israel is primarily defined in the OT. If you think you can manage it, please keep my remarks in their context.

Okay, so you mean to say that biblical Israel in the OT comprised of the 12 tribes that descended from Jacob. In other words the foreigners who became 'Israelites' were never biblical Israel but rather they were 'a part of Israel'. Do I understand you correctly? So technicaly Israle in the OT did NOT constitue then the foregners that beame 'Israelites', is that what you are saying? I ask because we recently agreed who consituted the nation of Israel which were ALL of the faith (jew or foreigner).

So what do you then mean by them being only 'a part' of Israel in the OT?

[Guest shiloh357]

My point was that the primary definition of Israel (for our purposes in this thread) applies to the physical descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

I thought the purpose of this thread is to answer 'Who is Israel?' Which is what I'm trying to get to.

Are you saying the above for the purpose of meaning that only physical Israelites INHERET the blessings of Abraham? What about those who joined israel in the OT? Did they get to share in the same inheritance??? Will they when resurrected?

You and Horizon are both a couple of broken records, firehill. I said the primary definition (with respect to the OT) for this thread is that Israel is comprised of the twelve tribes descended from Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. That is the normative sense of the term. I was responding to the discussion of how Israel is primarily defined in the OT. If you think you can manage it, please keep my remarks in their context.

Okay, so you mean to say that biblical Israel in the OT comprised of the 12 tribes that descended from Jacob. In other words the foreigners who became 'Israelites' were never biblical Israel but rather they were 'a part of Israel'. Do I understand you correctly? So technicaly Israle in the OT did NOT constitue then the foregners that beame 'Israelites', is that what you are saying? I ask because we recently agreed who consituted the nation of Israel which were ALL of the faith (jew or foreigner).

No that is not what I am saying. You seem bent on avoiding the context and making things more complicated than they are.

Please read my prior comments. I am tired of repeating myself over and over.

[firehill]

My point was that the primary definition of Israel (for our purposes in this thread) applies to the physical descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

I thought the purpose of this thread is to answer 'Who is Israel?' Which is what I'm trying to get to.

Are you saying the above for the purpose of meaning that only physical Israelites INHERET the blessings of Abraham? What about those who joined israel in the OT? Did they get to share in the same inheritance??? Will they when resurrected?

You and Horizon are both a couple of broken records, firehill. I said the primary definition (with respect to the OT) for this thread is that Israel is comprised of the twelve tribes descended from Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. That is the normative sense of the term. I was responding to the discussion of how Israel is primarily defined in the OT. If you think you can manage it, please keep my remarks in their context.

Okay, so you mean to say that biblical Israel in the OT comprised of the 12 tribes that descended from Jacob. In other words the foreigners who became 'Israelites' were never biblical Israel but rather they were 'a part of Israel'. Do I understand you correctly? So technicaly Israle in the OT did NOT constitue then the foregners that beame 'Israelites', is that what you are saying? I ask because we recently agreed who consituted the nation of Israel which were ALL of the faith (jew or foreigner).

No that is not what I am saying. You seem bent on avoiding the context and making things more complicated than they are.

Please read my prior comments. I am tired of repeating myself over and over.

Above you said the primary definition of Israel with respect to the OT applies to the physical descdanets of Jacob, the 12 tribes and that such 'is the normative sense of the term.'

Okay. So tell me who biblical Israel is in the OT, please. There's two options:

a) the physical descendents of jacob, the 12 tribes

b) jew and foreginer (aka, 'Israelite' who joined the faith, the nation)

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

Okay, for the four millionth time, Gentile believers are part of Israel. That does not mean they are not Gentiles. One's DNA did not change. They were simply treated as the native born Israelite was treated and had full access to all the privileges and rights of a native born.

Ofcourse their DNA didn't change Shilo. Come on now. I'm not disagreeing with you here. Okay. So then, so they had full access to ALL the privileges and rights of a native born meaning ALL, EVERYTHING, including ALL the promises of God, yes?

Of course they did.

QUOTE

They are simply part of Israel.

Which means what? In what way are they NOT part of Isreal?

What I am saying is that Gentile believers constitute one subset of Israel. That is what the olive tree metaphor demonstrates.

QUOTE

They were expected to live peaceably among the Children of Israel and the Children of Israel were expected to treat them kindly and to accept them as they would a native born Israelite.

So they were considered an Israelite BUT they weren not considered children of Israel, children of God even though they joined their faith???

No that is not what I said. Not even close.

QUOTE

"Israel" in the New Testament, appears 71 times. In each of those references the word "Israel" is used in the normative sense. It is always applied to biblical Israel. It is never used ot refer to any other entity.

Your response above didn't answer my questions. So here they are again. Did not biblical Israel in the OT consitute even those gentiles who became Israelites? Is the biblical Israel of the OT the same as the biblical Israel of the NT?

Sigh... maybe you need to take some classes in reading comprehension, firehill. I have only defined biblical Israel a million times for you. Yes, to both.

[firehill]

QUOTE

Okay, for the four millionth time, Gentile believers are part of Israel. That does not mean they are not Gentiles. One's DNA did not change. They were simply treated as the native born Israelite was treated and had full access to all the privileges and rights of a native born.

Ofcourse their DNA didn't change Shilo. Come on now. I'm not disagreeing with you here. Okay. So then, so they had full access to ALL the privileges and rights of a native born meaning ALL, EVERYTHING, including ALL the promises of God, yes?

Of course they did.

QUOTE

They are simply part of Israel.

Which means what? In what way are they NOT part of Isreal?

What I am saying is that Gentile believers constitute one subset of Israel. That is what the olive tree metaphor demonstrates.

I was asking in regard to those who joined Israel in the OT. In what way were those who became Israelites only a part of Israel or to put it another way, in what way were they not part of Israel?

SO in the OT gentiles could became 'Israelites' but not in the NT?