Who is Israel?

[Guest shiloh357]

I am nearly convinced that the church is Israel, which of course implies that the present day nation of Israel is not so important in the end times events. The geographic area of the place, sure. I believe it is the center of the earth and near where it all began. Can any of you consider that when God speaks of bringing Israel together, he means us? I would appreciate knowing what you think?

Replacement Theology. The Church and Israel are always treated seperately. The Church has not, does not, and will not replace Israel, as a country, or as a people. There are specific prophecies yet to be fulfilled when it comes to Israel, and God always keeps His promises.

What are the prophecies and what makes them specific to Israel?

For one thing, God promises to restore Israel to their Land, to make them prosperous as well as to restore them spiritually. We are in that process even now. Israel is being restored physically and will one day, be restored spiritually and Jesus, Himself, will rule from Jerusalem from His throne during the Millennium. We are actually in the middle of a very prophetic season where Israel is concerned.

[Fraught]

I am nearly convinced that the church is Israel, which of course implies that the present day nation of Israel is not so important in the end times events. The geographic area of the place, sure. I believe it is the center of the earth and near where it all began. Can any of you consider that when God speaks of bringing Israel together, he means us? I would appreciate knowing what you think?

Israel(The Jewish Nation).. Is the apple of God's eye... Chosen because of the righteousness of their forefathers... although.. they braught upon themselves a curse as a nation by repeated rebellion..(From the time of Moses on..). Which, through all this time they have been paying the price of borderline extinction...(Wages of their non-stop iniquities) The 'Church, is the body of Christ..( All those who have come to the saving knowledge of 'God in Jesus, Repentented, and have become saved..).. All who are true children of God, circumized at heart(Holy-Spirit), & Living in accordence to all that apllies accordingly ea. day FOR God,(as the extended hand of Christ) to witness to others, that is...

Thus, The circumcision(Born-Again) of heart...(Repentance, & change of mind to live in Christ, (faithfully of course,), means we are so to say..Jewish at heart,(adopted by Jesus) and the Gentiles, are sinners, all living outside of this salvation... However, when the church gets raptured, (The body 'of all saved,).. God's judgement of the Israel nation is done, & His attention is returned to the apple of 'His eye... The focus of Tribulational period is the restoring of Isreal for their 1st intended purpose.. To spread the gospel throughout the entire world... They (144,000 sealed 'BEFORE), tribulation begins, will reign with Christ after His return, 3 1/2 years into tribulation... The area of Israel Jesus returns to is Mt Zion.. (a Holy-Place) where the holy temple will be rebuilt(Site of 3rd holy mosque now, where abraham took issac to be sacraficed) , where He will reign on earth for 1000years... God;s church(The Holy-Spirit, which is in us, since saved..), will be removed before this happens, The Holy-Spirit is the restrainer (convicts one of sin).. Thus, The Jewish nation will preach God's word, The Holy Spirit will not be here because Christ IS... Although, there are many views to the end-times, (based on 1st&2nd ressurrection), I find it easiest to compare Pastor Hagees end time outlines, to revelation itsself.. He has many books available in bookstores, although I'm sure most people know this... But just in case, I hope this helps..

Yes Pastor John Hagee is the one who originally had me all fired up for Israel. I would have moved there if i could. I have changed my mind about this and about some of these end-time scenarios. We must know the truth. I just don't want to be one of the deceived.

[Guest shiloh357]

If the Church is Israel, then all the Scriptures about the children of Israel being gathered from the North, the South, the East and the West to Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) make no sense whatsoever.

Why? The church is scattered all over as well. And I am not being facetious here. My desire to know is honest and sincere.

The Church is not "scattered" in the sense that the Church ever had a specific homeland. The Bible only refers to the physical tribes of Israel being regathered to the land from which they were scattered. Since the Church does not have a national homeland, the regathering cannot logically refer to the Church.

[Guest shiloh357]

I just don't want to be one of the deceived.

Then you need to return to your prior views on Israel. Hagee is right about Israel being God's nation. I don't agree with Hagee on everything, but I do agree with his support of Israel, and the view that Israel is God's prophetic time piece.

[Fraught]

I find it best to use scripture rather than old or new school theology.

These verses sum it up pretty well.....

Romans 2:28-29, “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.”

I know these threads often become cotentious so this will be my only contribution to the thread. I believe what the verses say. It is the inward man which make us a child of God...the origin of our birth has nothing to do with it.

God Bless everyone.

God bless you Katyann, I hope you won't be sore with me for saying this, but Romans 2:28:29 is not saying the Gentile Christians are Jews. Part of the problem here is that you are confusing issues. You are trying to address an argument that has not been raised. There is no contention offered with respect to what makes us a child of God. However, there is nothing in these passages that suggest that Gentile Christians are spiritual or "inward" Jews. No one is arguing that physical descent has anything to do with it. In fact, no one that I know of on this board has made that assertion, so I don't see why you feel the need to continuously address that. It almost seems as that you are implying that we think that Jews are saved on the basis of being Jewish or that they have some kind of advantage. Your take on Romans 2:28-29 is entirely foreign to the object that Paul has in view in this chapter. You need to examine the entire line of thought.

Paul is using a common debate tactic in Romans chapter 2. He is anticipating the Jewish objections to his remarks. So in true debate form, he is addressing an imaginary Jewish audience and basically answering the objections he being a Jew himself, knows will be raised. He is cutting them off at the pass. Paul is explaining to Jews what it really means to be Jewish. He is not telling the Roman Christians that they are the "true Jews."

Paul is discussing the difference between those Jews who boast in their own self-righteousness and bring reproach upon the Lord, versus Jewish people whose boast is in the Lord, and whose lives are testimonies of praise to Him.

Paul, as I said, is speaking to what amounts to an imaginary unbelieving Jewish audience, while still making a potent point to his readership of non-Jewish believers. Paul has already demonstrated in the previous verses, that being without the Torah does not short change the Gentiles. They are not at a disadvantage. Paul sets his sights on Jewish pride that places its faith in external practices, and boasts in the Torah/Law at Lord’s expense.

In boasting about and abusing their Jewishness, Paul says that they have become the very antithesis of what Torah observance, and Jewishness really is. In their foolish pride, they both dishonor God and fail to be a light to the Gentiles.

Paul goes even further and tells them that those who are uncircumcised but have fulfilled the righteousness of the law (other words, those who are born again) will sit in judgment of those to whom the law was first given. The very ones who should have been glorifying God and being a light to world will, through their hypocrisy and pride find themselves judged by the very ones they considered to be in darkness. Those non-Jewish believers who, through the Messiah fulfill the righteousness of the Torah will stand as a reproach against those whose boast is solely in their fleshly observance of the law.

Paul then tells his imaginary Jewish audience that the Jewish person who goes about making an obnoxious, ostentatious display of his pedigree is, in fact, not a Jew. This "nonJew" commands others to keep the Torah while violating it himself, He takes pride in the advantages he has as if they were his own accomplishments, and not the provision of the Lord, and in doing so he has no place in the Kingdom of God. Paul tells his Jewish audience in these verses that their outward circumcision is not the essence of their Jewishness. It is the circumcision of the heart; the cutting away of the fleshly desires and attitudes that prevent them from living as those who praise is of God.

Once again, the Church is not Israel and Gentile Christians are not Jews, spiritually or otherwise. The "Church = Israel" position is an outdated, archaic, unscriptural, fallacious and easily refuted theological position. There is absolutely ZERO objective Scritpural evidence to support it.

Please read Isaiah 59 and come back to me (I meant Shiloh)

Edited July 29, 2007 by Fraught

[Fraught]

I think the best understanding of this issue of the church replacing Israel is found by examining Romans 8-12. THere you will find a description of a tree...an olive tree. This tree represents the family of God. Jesus is the root of the tree and Israel are the branches. Some of the branches were removed (notice not all the branches were removed) and other "wild" branches (read as gentiles) were grated into this family by faith. Paul cautions us in thinking too highly of ourselves and becoming belligerent to the original branches. If God was willing to replace the original branches, then replacing the wild branches is even more possible.

Paul goes on to mention that once the whole of the gentiles to be saved are grafted into the tree, then thw hole of Israel will be saved. You see, God knows which gentiles are to be grafted in and once we have been grafted in, then He will save the whole of Israel. He will remove the blindness and deafness that has come upon them for our (the gentiles) sake. Then God will complete His family tree with the rest of Israel. It is so very beautiful to see what God is doing. Israel is only temporarily blinded to what God is doing. They will be saved.

Why would any Christian think that God has thrown away Israel? If He did, how could we ever be certain that one day He would not throw us (the church) away as well?

I do not believe all Israel was thrown away. Just as in the days of Elijah, there were 7000 who did not bow their knee to Baal. This is mentioned in Romans 11:4. There was, at that present time, a remnant. If that remnant became Christian, they no longer practiced their Jewish religion.

[Guest shiloh357]

Please read Isaiah 59 and come back to me (I meant Shiloh)

Yeah, I have read it many times. Do you have point? I doubt another reading of it cause to magically see what you think I should see in that chapter. So what is it about Isaiah 59 that you thinks supports Replacement Theology, if that is where you are headed in this?

[Scarletprayers]

I just don't get it, God promises over and over that He has plans for Israel they are his "forever" a nation set apart, now God is NOT a liar, so either Israel is still the Apple of Gods eye, and He has promises yet to fulfilled for them, or we are all in trouble. I agree with Cobalt, if we as the body of Christ can't believe what God says about Israel, where does that leave us "those grated in" with the promises He has made? Excellent post as always Shiloh!

I pray daily for God's will and protection for the body and for Israel!

[Guest]

Please read Isaiah 59 and come back to me

OK! OK!

The Islands (Gentles) Are Surly Gonna Get It

And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

Isaiah 59:16-18

The Messianic Jew Will Be Saved

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Isaiah 59:`9-21

Oyez! Oyez! Oyez!

All Who Claim The Name Of Jesus - HE IS FAITHFUL

Behold The Lion Of Judah

Behold The KING Of The Jew

Behold The Love God Has For Israel

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 14

Brothers, What Say Ye Of Christ

Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem

Maranatha!

Hallelujah!

Even So, Come Quickly Lord Jesus, Come Quickly

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Why would any Christian think that God has thrown away Israel? If He did, how could we ever be certain that one day He would not throw us (the church) away as well?

Amen!! I agree. I have been asking that question for a long time, myself. God's faithfulness to restore biblical Israel both as a nation and as a spiritual Kingdom is proof of His faithfulness to His promises!!

Umm...I cant agree with that statement AT ALL. The Church is from Christ, The Church is the Body of Christ, meaning the Church is one with Him and CAN NOT BE SEPERATED. For the Church to be"thrown away" would mean Christ would have to deny Himself (can He cant do that).

Ruck, you are missing the point. The point is that if God was not faithful to his promises to biblical Israel to restore them as a nation after scattering them, then it would give reason to doubt God's promises to Christians. The point is that God's faithfulness to Israel is based on who God is. God would cease to be God if he broke His promises and permanently dissolved biblical Israel. There would be no New Covenant in that case, since the New Covenant is made with both the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jer 31:31). God's faithfulness to Israel demonstrates His integrity is still intact, and that we can trust His promises regarding salvation.