This passage has troubled me...

[OopsMartin]

Those who argue for absolute silence of women in church meetings mostly argue around these points:

1. It specifically addresses "women" so this is something only for women.

2. The word silent means absolute speechlessness therefore all women should not utter a word in the assembly which rules out teaching, preaching, etc.

3. It makes mention of "the Law", so this is not only for any particular incident or for a limited time frame.

4. As is reasonable for women who are in submission to their husbands, wives need to ask questions of their own husbands instead of disturbing the church service.

5. Because it says that it is shameful for a woman to speak in church this further cements the restriction.

Those who argue against absolute silence of women in church services mostly argue around these points:

1. context rules out absolute silence ; the context is orderliness not gender preferences

2. Greek meaning of sigao is closer to "hush" rather than absolute forever silence.

3. Other Scriptures in the same time frame have Paul promoting women speaking and in ministry, so he cannot do both at the same time since they contradict one another.... and Paul in the same epistle just admonished wives who spoke publically (1 Cor. 11) to check their attire that it not bring shame to their husbands.

4. The upper room experience has both men and women speaking in tongues together and prophesying before each other.

5. In context Paul just got finished admonishing EVERYone to bring something to give/share at the meeting and admonished everyone about how to operate in tongues and prophesy before the congregation.

6. Since the verse says to ask husbands at home, the prohibition for orderliness likely was about wives loudly asking husbands questions, thus they should ask them at home, rather then disturb the flow of the moving of the Spirit

7. There is no Scriptural Law in the Torah that prohibits women from speaking. If Paul were to be referencing a local law, that does not make it a universal restriction. And it is unlikely that Paul would do so. In fact the only known "law" against women speaking in spiritual matters is from the Jewish Talmud, the oral traditions of the Prarisees, which has no universal binding on Scriptural admonitions.

8. Some argue that the restriction is not against every kind of speaking but only the sifting, weighing, and judging of the prophetic words given.

9. There is a growing number of scholars who are arguing for it to be an interpolation and have good scientific reasons for concluding this. One being that verses 34-35 are in different places in different manuscripts (not connected with verse 33). Another reason being that this section does not flow with the rest of the chapter upsetting the context by interrupting the theme of prophecy, spoiling the flow of thought. (Gordon Fee supports this) Another reason being that a professor of paleography examined certain manuscripts with a high powered magnifying glass and demonstrated that the words had been inserted and not part of the original writing of the manuscripts. An interpolation is Paul quoting others words and then responding to them, or referring to others words and then responding to them. This is actually done quite frequently in Pauls epistles.

Not sure if I covered everything, but that is the gist of it.

[Guest Robert R]

1 Corinthians 14:34-35:

34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

I find that the women in my church add just as much as the men do, and in addition to that, they tend to be less shy when it comes to addressing the congregation. I would also feel very uncomfortable asking a wife to keep silent in church.

Could someone give me some opinions on these verses?

P.S. I won't reply until quite a bit later today, I have to go to work.

The historical context of verse 34 makes it quite simple. What complicates the issue is that Paul also goes on to Say women should not teah men. However, I will simply deal with verse 34. According to historians, in the Church at Corinth, men and women sat in separate areas of the church. The women would literally talk very loudly, some almost shouting, across the congregation to ask their husbands for clarification of something said by the pastor. Thus, verse 34 is easy. In essence it says "Wait until you get home to ask questions; stop disrupting the service."

I keep hearing this argument stated..that the women were asking their husbands questions out loud. May I ask where you got that information from. I''m looking for an actual historical souce that makes this claim. Not speculation....

The Expositor's commentary is the last place I remember seeing it. I have seen it in many commentaries. That does not mean it is accurate, that merely means that it is corroborated by many sources.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Yes, this is a very heated issue in todays society.

I am not sure at all how those Scriptures should be understood. Some say that women should not teach but be silen andt some say that its was simple addressed to the Corinthian church not for other churches but this wrong because Titus was instructed to carry this to many churches.

1Ti 2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (12) But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. (13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

On the other hand I see scriptures such as this:

Php 4:3 And I also beg you, true yoke-fellow, help those women who labored in the gospel with me and with Clement, and others of my fellow-laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Women holding ministry positions:

Luk 2:36 And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in many days, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity.

Act 21:9 And he had four daughters, virgins, who were prophets.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant (minister) of the church that is at Cenchreae:

So to be honest I think women need to find a Godly balance of being Submissive and Laborers of the Gospel.

[OopsMartin]

Yes, this is a very heated issue in todays society.

I am not sure at all how those Scriptures should be understood. Some say that women should not teach but be silen andt some say that its was simple addressed to the Corinthian church not for other churches but this wrong because Titus was instructed to carry this to many churches.

1Ti 2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (12) But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. (13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

On the other hand I see scriptures such as this:

Php 4:3 And I also beg you, true yoke-fellow, help those women who labored in the gospel with me and with Clement, and others of my fellow-laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Women holding ministry positions:

Luk 2:36 And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in many days, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity.

Act 21:9 And he had four daughters, virgins, who were prophets.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant (minister) of the church that is at Cenchreae:

So to be honest I think women need to find a Godly balance of being submissive and Laborers of the Gospel.

Good thoughts Jedi.

Fact is we all need to find that balance. All leadership and ministry needs to be built upon the foundation of a servants heart. See Matt. 20:25-28

[Guest]

So to be honest I think women need to find a Godly balance of being Submissive and Laborers of the Gospel

OH Good!

You Forgot The Fellows.

Believers

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:20

Submit

Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting ourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Ephesians 5:20-21

Comfort

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11

Sing

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Ephesians 5:19

Bless

And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Luke 24:52-53

Trust

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psalms 2:12

Love

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deuteronomy 6:4-6

And Look Up

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:28

Be Blessed Beloved Of The Lamb

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[OopsMartin]

I really liked that Joe.

[KeilanS]

Thank you everyone, it does seem more logical that it is referring to women teaching or loudly asking questions than just speaking in general. I was really bothered by the idea of women not being allowed to talk.

Now just one question, I have never had a female pastor, but my youth pastor is female... do you think that is okay scripturally?

[firehill]

J. Lee Grady said this about it:

"It should be noted that the Jewish Talmud is a collection of comments by rabbis who disagree, and the statement here about the "obscenity" of teaching women the law of God is challenged. However, many scholars of early Jewish thought believe the quote here represents the prevalent opinion of rabbis in the first century. Women were not allowed to study the Torah or to become disciples of rabbis."

In my opinion this is likely where the comment in verses 34-35 came from, from the Talmudic law. But Paul could not have agreed with it since he promoted women in ministry, honored and acknowledged their service in the Lord. It is likely though that there were Jewish Christians who still thought that way.

In fact the only known "law" against women speaking in spiritual matters is from the Jewish Talmud, the oral traditions of the Prarisees, which has no universal binding on Scriptural admonitions.

Yes, Paul quoted his opponents who held to the Talmudic law. I just learned this! So it was Jewish men who were trying to stop women from speaking in church not Paul. I was shown sayings of the Talmud that were almost exaclty as those of Paul's opponents even regarding the word 'shame'.

[patricia1]

J. Lee Grady said this about it:

"It should be noted that the Jewish Talmud is a collection of comments by rabbis who disagree, and the statement here about the "obscenity" of teaching women the law of God is challenged. However, many scholars of early Jewish thought believe the quote here represents the prevalent opinion of rabbis in the first century. Women were not allowed to study the Torah or to become disciples of rabbis."

In my opinion this is likely where the comment in verses 34-35 came from, from the Talmudic law. But Paul could not have agreed with it since he promoted women in ministry, honored and acknowledged their service in the Lord. It is likely though that there were Jewish Christians who still thought that way.

In fact the only known "law" against women speaking in spiritual matters is from the Jewish Talmud, the oral traditions of the Prarisees, which has no universal binding on Scriptural admonitions.

Yes, Paul quoted his opponents who held to the Talmudic law. I just learned this! So it was Jewish men who were trying to stop women from speaking in church not Paul. I was shown sayings of the Talmud that were almost exaclty as those of Paul's opponents even regarding the word 'shame'.

In the condition the world is right now I do not think this issue should go around again to me it is in vain.. but for the person who has asked ..the question is answered by the best here and there should be no argument. I think this thread should be kept up front; able to be read and yet new posting not allowed for others who inquire, most people men and woman are quiet while the preacher is preaching and Our bible studies were always informal and any one can ask anything they like. In heaven we are all the same..in value and we are all the same in value in the sight of the Lord Jesus. For it was only one price paid for all.

Edited August 9, 2007 by patricia1

[OopsMartin]

Thank you everyone, it does seem more logical that it is referring to women teaching or loudly asking questions than just speaking in general. I was really bothered by the idea of women not being allowed to talk.

Now just one question, I have never had a female pastor, but my youth pastor is female... do you think that is okay scripturally?

You are going to have a lot of different answers on that Keilan. Bottom line is that it is the Holy Spirit that chooses to gift whomsoever He Wills, not us. If God chooses someone then who are we to question God. Check out the women God has used in the OT..... Miriam, Judge/Prophet Deborah, Huldah for the most prominent. And then check out some of the women of the NT.

God uses whomsoever He wills.