Youth Suspended Over SKETCH of Gun

[Axxman]

Axxman you are saying that we should "live the way God would have us live" but at the same time you are saying we should ignore acts of evil committed against other people, keep our blinkers on, and just focus on ourselves. By ignoring evil you may as well be committing evil yourself, so this cannot be the way God would have us live.

First of all...I never said we should just "focus on ourselves." I have repeatedly said we need to keep our focus on God. I think we need to take the example of Jesus when dealing with these issues. Jesus didn't live in some Utopian form of gov't. The Roman gov't was brutal and yet Jesus is largely silent about all the injustices of that time. Not one time in any parable or teaching did Jesus EVER advocate for social change. This is, of course, in spite of massive taxation, high slavery population (approx 3 slaves per free man), underprivileged and oppressed minority (the Jews), and a one-man gov't with a leader so brutal he ordered every male child in a whole region murdered. You'd think that Jesus would have had at least a spare moment to rebuke, chastise, or complain about the gov't system that ruled them. And yet he did not. So your accusation towards me of 'ignoring acts of evil" and "keeping the blinkers on" may as well be directed at Jesus Christ too.

People being murdered, tortured or having their basic rights trampled on all the time, also doesn't "infringe upon your desire to serve and worship Jesus Christ" either, but that does not mean you should just say "it is none of my business, and it not hurting me, so it must be OK as far as God is concerned". Jesus did tell us to love our fellow man. Jesus didn't preach that people should just go along with anything evil as long as it didn't directly stop people believing in God.

You are correct...Jesus didn't say to "just go along with anything." So what did Jesus say? He said, "Give to Caesar, what belongs to Caesar. Give to God, what belongs to God." So what do we have that belongs to God? What does God require of us? God requires our worship and God requires our conscience. Everything else belongs to Caesar. AS long as the gov't doesn't infringe on our personal reponsibilities to God, we are to honor it. If you are a slave to the gov't...you are required to be a good slave...not a trouble maker who tries to start the revolt.

And Jesus most certainly did not advocate any worship of the state or claim that government had a Godly right to "rule".

That is very dangerous territory to get into.

I know that if people have a particular view on a subject, it often makes a difference what "side of the fence" they find themselves on. So can you say in all honesty that if you were a slave you would be perfectly content and show exemplary behaviour?

Again...I never said to "worship" the gov't. We are to respect the authority that God has placed over us. The scriptures are CLEAR on this. That is precisely my problem when it concerns Christians and their idolatry of the Bill of Rights. Some Christians worship the First Amendment even though as a rule of law it flies in the face of God's commandments. So where does the allegiance lie? Have they given something that should belong to God over to Caesar?

If I were a slave, I would like to believe that I would live as Christ would want me to...and I would hope to receive blessings for that. Let me toss the question back to you...You are not a slave (in the biblical sense), you are blessed to live in a relatively free country...and yet you resent the gov't, advocate for change, and disrespectably chastise the gov't often...is that how you truly feel God wants you to act based on the example of Jesus Christ and the Apostles?

[JustinM]

"Give to Caesar, what belongs to Caesar. Give to God, what belongs to God." So what do we have that belongs to God? What does God require of us? God requires our worship and God requires our conscience. Everything else belongs to Caesar.

Wow, that is a twisted interpretation of scripture.

Since God is the Creator, everything belongs to Him. According to your interpretation of scripture, our forefathers committed a sin by revolting against the British Monarchy. I guess the US is illegitimate. How much has the world benefitted from this act of "defiance?"

Read the following article, I'm not gonna sum it up for you.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=57328

[Axxman]

"Give to Caesar, what belongs to Caesar. Give to God, what belongs to God." So what do we have that belongs to God? What does God require of us? God requires our worship and God requires our conscience. Everything else belongs to Caesar.

Wow, that is a twisted interpretation of scripture.

Since God is the Creator, everything belongs to Him. According to your interpretation of scripture, our forefathers committed a sin by revolting against the British Monarchy. I guess the US is illegitimate. How much has the world benefitted from this act of "defiance?"

Read the following article, I'm not gonna sum it up for you.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=57328

Thanks for the completely biased, unscriptural, idolatrous article. More in a minute....

First lets deal with "God is the Creator, everything belongs to him" portion of your post. Would that include the govt's he establishes? Would that include China, Russia, and Nazi Germany...or just your own little corner of world history? The bible is cclear that ALL gov't is established by God? Do you deny this?

Of course, I believe that the forefathers of this country were noble in a worldly sense...but they clearly struck out in a spiritual sense. This is NOT a big surprise since most of them were NOT good Christian men...and certainly not worthy of the idolatry heaped upon them for their efforts. I wouldn't say that the US is illegitimate ...there is PLENTY of scriptural evidence that God can use the evil of man for His own purposes. Clearly God used what these fallible men did for His glory. Maybe you should give God a bit more credit instead of these flawed men.

On to the article...In one paragraph Mr Farah agrees that Jesus and the disciples never raised an alarm to injustice...even to their own deaths. In the next paragraph, he praises people for fighting injustice. He sums up his less-than-brilliant opinion by stating that we don't have to follow Jesus' example because Caesar doesn't rule America. Brilliant!! And I'm accused of twisting scripure!?!?!?

I do agree with him that if the gov't were to order you to do evil...we must resist. For God is the owner of our conscience and we must NOT sin against our God. We must render our obedience unto God. However, to act as though we are allowed to overthrow our gov't just cuz we don't like it is SO FAR BEYOND our scriptural authority. Which is why NOBODY...including your Mr Farah...has based any of their opinions in scripture.

and I'll e-mail him my thoughts

[buckthesystem]

Why does it seem that you assume that human rights, or constitutional rights, are at odds with following God?

And yet you also seem to think that a government - which was most definitely created by man, and is not devine in any way - has the support of God?

hiya Bucks...I'm gonna respond to both of your posts here.

I have never said that 'human rights' in general are at odds with following God. (That should be an adequate response to Eliyahuw's last comment too.) I have little problem with human rights as far as they are in-line with scripture. The same could be said of constitutional rights. I am fine with constitutional rights as long as they are in line with scripture. As it turns out, the way the First Amendment is defined by the courts is a direct violation of one of the 10 commandments. Therefore, as a rule of law, it should not be supported by Christians.

I also never said that ANY particular gov't system has the "support of God." I have said that we are to respect the gov't because that is what God has called us to do. Jesus never disrespected the gov't system he was under and it was far more brutal than the one we currently enjoy. Jesus gave himself over to their unjust legal system without so much as a fight. Did Jesus cry out for human rights? Did Jesus condemn the legal system and unjust gov't system. NO! In fact, Jesus himself said he could have called down legions of Angels to right the wrongs of justice. Instead he respectfully obeyed. The gov't system we are under has been set up by God for HIS pleasure, and by HIS doing. He is the sovereign ruler of this earth.

Your other post: It is not a "utopian" government system, it is the system that existed to a large extent just about everywhere in the west until the latest "trend" of governments tricking the people and putting the personal agendas of corrupt politicians before the will of the people.

I am not "having a go" at GW Bush, but you must agree that he has exercised "executive orders" in his term more than any other president. And looking at Europe, UK, Australia, NZ, America - well just about anywhere for that matter it seems that the world is telling itself "democracy is dead, it is time for corrupt dictatorships everywhere - just some places far worse than others". The people pay for government to exist, they employ civil servants and politicians, and for these employees of the people to turn against them and start dictating to them as if they were their bosses, is nothing but evil. Where evil exists, Christians not only have a right - but a duty - to reign it in.

It cannot be Godly to support an evil system.

Of course I see corruption in the gov't system we have. I see corruption in the founding fathers that set the system up. It doesn't change the fact that we are living under a system that has been appointed by God, for His purposes. It is NOT our place to worry about it. It is our place as Christians to keep our eyes focused on the things of God and to continually try and spread the message of salvation.

People pay for the gov't to exist because they have to. If they didn't have to pay...most people wouldn't. Its not like people pay taxes because they have some idea that they will get their way. Pay taxes or go to jail. End of story. Jesus paid taxes because it was required..not because he was under some inclination that it bought him some piece of the pie.

There is no evidence that Jesus resisted, or in any way failed to support the 'evil' gov't system He was under. Jesus was far more concerned with the evil religious system, and false doctrines of his day, than whether or not Caesar was a brutal leader. Christians are to obey and respect the gov't unless (and these are the ONLY qualifiers I know of) it would require the betrayal or denial of God.

What corruption do you see in the founding fathers that set the constitutional system up?

It is incorrect to say "People pay for the gov't to exist because they have to. If they didn't have to pay...most people wouldn't" - I think most people would be willing to pay for a small, unintrusive, government system to exist. But I don't think anyone should be forced to pay for the bloated system that we have now with the personal agendas of senior civil servants and petty politicians being paramount. Nobody should have to pay for a system of excess and waste, a system that provides for parasites to exploit it. Most people, likewise, are under no illusion that they "will get their way", they know they have no chance.

Sure Jesus paid taxes because "it was required" - it was required or he would have been killed. Only governments have the power to kill - or certainly destroy - if they don't get their "pound of flesh". I find it amazing that the people let them get away with this. If Jesus had "resisted" or let it be seen that he "failed to support...." in any way, it would have, at the very least, threatened his ministry.

Your idea that "Christians are to obey and respect the gov't unless (and these are the ONLY qualifiers I know of) it would require the betrayal or denial of God" is not only the most dangerous, horrible, strange, interpretation of scripture there is, but it totally denies all logic and reason. Why should people "respect" evil and corruption in a system that has been entirely invented by man to further his own greed?

[buckthesystem]

Axxman you are saying that we should "live the way God would have us live" but at the same time you are saying we should ignore acts of evil committed against other people, keep our blinkers on, and just focus on ourselves. By ignoring evil you may as well be committing evil yourself, so this cannot be the way God would have us live.

First of all...I never said we should just "focus on ourselves." I have repeatedly said we need to keep our focus on God. I think we need to take the example of Jesus when dealing with these issues. Jesus didn't live in some Utopian form of gov't. The Roman gov't was brutal and yet Jesus is largely silent about all the injustices of that time. Not one time in any parable or teaching did Jesus EVER advocate for social change. This is, of course, in spite of massive taxation, high slavery population (approx 3 slaves per free man), underprivileged and oppressed minority (the Jews), and a one-man gov't with a leader so brutal he ordered every male child in a whole region murdered. You'd think that Jesus would have had at least a spare moment to rebuke, chastise, or complain about the gov't system that ruled them. And yet he did not. So your accusation towards me of 'ignoring acts of evil" and "keeping the blinkers on" may as well be directed at Jesus Christ too.

People being murdered, tortured or having their basic rights trampled on all the time, also doesn't "infringe upon your desire to serve and worship Jesus Christ" either, but that does not mean you should just say "it is none of my business, and it not hurting me, so it must be OK as far as God is concerned". Jesus did tell us to love our fellow man. Jesus didn't preach that people should just go along with anything evil as long as it didn't directly stop people believing in God.

You are correct...Jesus didn't say to "just go along with anything." So what did Jesus say? He said, "Give to Caesar, what belongs to Caesar. Give to God, what belongs to God." So what do we have that belongs to God? What does God require of us? God requires our worship and God requires our conscience. Everything else belongs to Caesar. AS long as the gov't doesn't infringe on our personal reponsibilities to God, we are to honor it. If you are a slave to the gov't...you are required to be a good slave...not a trouble maker who tries to start the revolt.

And Jesus most certainly did not advocate any worship of the state or claim that government had a Godly right to "rule".

That is very dangerous territory to get into.

I know that if people have a particular view on a subject, it often makes a difference what "side of the fence" they find themselves on. So can you say in all honesty that if you were a slave you would be perfectly content and show exemplary behaviour?

Again...I never said to "worship" the gov't. We are to respect the authority that God has placed over us. The scriptures are CLEAR on this. That is precisely my problem when it concerns Christians and their idolatry of the Bill of Rights. Some Christians worship the First Amendment even though as a rule of law it flies in the face of God's commandments. So where does the allegiance lie? Have they given something that should belong to God over to Caesar?

If I were a slave, I would like to believe that I would live as Christ would want me to...and I would hope to receive blessings for that. Let me toss the question back to you...You are not a slave (in the biblical sense), you are blessed to live in a relatively free country...and yet you resent the gov't, advocate for change, and disrespectably chastise the gov't often...is that how you truly feel God wants you to act based on the example of Jesus Christ and the Apostles?

Just because you imagine that "Jesus was silent about particular issues" doesn't mean that he condoned them. Why would Jesus advocate "social change"? He was not a politician, but a Messiah. You can't take the fact that Jesus put up with all this as a sign that he approved of it, even expected that we should!

"Give to Caesar what belongs to Ceasar" - eek, no! You must know you are not supposed to take that literally. That's ridiculous. Jesus knew as we all do, afterall it is obvious, that NOTHING BELONGED TO CEASAR! If you are going to use the word "Ceasar" to mean "government" and transpose that phrase to today, then we know that NOTHING "belongs" to government, all that government has it gains by taking it from the people by force (not even giving them a chance to freely give anything). As for "as long as the gov't doesn't infringe on our personal reponsibilities to God, we are to honor it", government infringes on our personal responsibilities to God all the time - e.g. legal abortion, legal torture, trampling on our rights, taking our property. And if you truly believe what you claim, you are the victim, once again, of a twisted interpretation of scripture. One of the basic tenets of "living like Jesus would have us live" is HONESTY. And to serve an evil and corrupt government doesn't quite gel with that.

You claim "We are to respect the authority that God has placed over us. The scriptures are CLEAR on this.". No, I absolutely will never accept this load of ........, and the scriptures are ABSOLUTELY NOT "clear on this" - this is an evil twist of the interpretation of scripture. The ONLY authority that is over us is GOD HIMSELF. If you have trouble understanding this, then consider: How can an institution that was created by the people to serve the people, and funded by the people, or wouldn't otherwise exist, be "placed over us"???????

As for you having a problem with the first Amendment: Well the first Amendment says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Now how, exactly, does that flie in the face of God's commandments? My interpretation of that is only that "Government should make no law with regard to the practice of religion" which, of course, they shouldn't!

[Scarletprayers]

I have to agree with Axx, yes Jesus said what He said, and because you don't like it, doesn't change it. Yes scripture is clear that we are to obey our government and once again, just because you don't like it, doesn't change it. Jesus spoke out against those that would harm the soul, and even said not to worry about those that can take your life, because He isn't worried about how you live your life in the world, but how you live your life before God.

As for the US, and all the good its done, so what, God can use anything man does for good, even wrong things. Every social change that we are told what to about, is what "we" ourselves can do, giving to the poor, visiting those in prison or through the group "church" collecting for the widows and orphans, never once are those things commanded of a worldly government, other than Israel, but Israel was a Theocracy set up and set apart by God himself.

[rtwo]

I have to agree with Axx, yes Jesus said what He said, and because you don't like it, doesn't change it.

True enough... but Jesus said what He said about Ceasar. Not about a Constitutional Democratic Republic. The difference in how these forms of government exist is profound, and shouldn't be ignored when using this scripture. The US government exists by, for and of the people, meaning, in effect, that it's here because we let it be here. It holds our money in trust to do the will of the people -- not of the government.

While it's true that Paul essentially said you only have to fear authority if you're doing wrong, history reflects that he almost couldn't have been talking about government -- even the early Christians feared government -- and for doing RIGHT!

While I don't pretend to know the correct interpretation of the passages, I do believe the Bible to be infallible. Therefore, when an interpretation of Scripture fails to mesh with historical evidence, we have to rethink the interpretation. Hitler did not use his "sword" against injustice -- nor have countless other historical rulers. Not only was it right for Christians to display civil disobedience by harboring Jews and others targeted by the Nazi hate machine, it would have been, I believe, just as right for them to take up arms and aid the Allies in ousting Hitler.

[Scarletprayers]

If you notice I said, we are told as individuals to do what is right. There is a reason why I put it that way. My vote (I hope) makes a difference, if not, the government that gets elected is because God wanted them there for His reasons, and mine were wrong. I firmly believe that God controls all of this and it doesn't matter what man wants or tries to do, we will never override what God wants done. To say otherwise is putting man in charge, saying his will can change God's will. Not gonna happen.

[kat8585]

If you notice I said, we are told as individuals to do what is right. There is a reason why I put it that way. My vote (I hope) makes a difference, if not, the government that gets elected is because God wanted them there for His reasons, and mine were wrong. I firmly believe that God controls all of this and it doesn't matter what man wants or tries to do, we will never override what God wants done. To say otherwise is putting man in charge, saying his will can change God's will. Not gonna happen.

I think that can happen, as God's will is for all to be saved, but many will be lost by their own choice, or will.

[buckthesystem]

If you notice I said, we are told as individuals to do what is right. There is a reason why I put it that way. My vote (I hope) makes a difference, if not, the government that gets elected is because God wanted them there for His reasons, and mine were wrong. I firmly believe that God controls all of this and it doesn't matter what man wants or tries to do, we will never override what God wants done. To say otherwise is putting man in charge, saying his will can change God's will. Not gonna happen.

Scarlet I have no doubt that our ultimate destiny will be controlled by God, but what we do day to day (including what government we elect) is as a result of FREE WILL!

If there were no free will, what would be the point of anything? Do you believe that God placed all governments over all peoples when ever, where ever, for his own reasons?

Governments are not heavenly beings! They are made up of EARTHLY PEOPLE, and invented by man! God created all men in his image, all men equal. God did not EVER place any earthly man ABOVE any other man!

Governments are not divine, God is the only one who is devine. God trumps man ALWAYS.

There is no way ever that scripture says that God placed governments over people, that one is a real spin.