Yahweh is salvation Posted August 25, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 Ok. so he did say Son of God ( equal to God ). If that means that he is God, then why does he pray to God (him self ) ? Why does he say in ( Mark 14.62 ) " Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Poverfull, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Is he sitting beside himself ? I think that a lot of people have ben tought by the church and others who Jesus is, so they listen to them and not what the Bible (Jesus) is telling them. All what the church should be doing is , to give us the gospel , just like Jesus's apostles did and not be telling us, this means this and that means that. What the Bible is saying, thats for us (individualy) to find out. No one can be our teacher but Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletprayers Posted August 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Ok. so he did say Son of God ( equal to God ). If that means that he is God, then why does he pray to God (him self ) ? Why does he say in ( Mark 14.62 ) " Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Poverfull, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Is he sitting beside himself ? I think that a lot of people have ben tought by the church and others who Jesus is, so they listen to them and not what the Bible (Jesus) is telling them. All what the church should be doing is , to give us the gospel , just like Jesus's apostles did and not be telling us, this means this and that means that. What the Bible is saying, thats for us (individualy) to find out. No one can be our teacher but Jesus. Thats why we have 30,000+ different denoms......................instead of all being "one" like Christ also told us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Ok. so he did say Son of God ( equal to God ). If that means that he is God, then why does he pray to God (him self ) ? Why does he say in ( Mark 14.62 ) " Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Poverfull, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Is he sitting beside himself ? I think that a lot of people have ben tought by the church and others who Jesus is, so they listen to them and not what the Bible (Jesus) is telling them. All what the church should be doing is , to give us the gospel , just like Jesus's apostles did and not be telling us, this means this and that means that. What the Bible is saying, thats for us (individualy) to find out. No one can be our teacher but Jesus. You are confusing issues. Saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is God and the Father is God. Jesus did not juxtapose Himself with God. He juxtaposed Himself with the Father. You are, as I said confusing essence with relationship. Jesus relationally speaking is the Son of God. That does not mean that Jesus is not God in essence and being. Your position rests on the premise that only the Father can God, and that is a premise that is contradicted numerous times in the text of Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yahweh is salvation Posted August 25, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 Ok. so he did say Son of God ( equal to God ). If that means that he is God, then why does he pray to God (him self ) ? Why does he say in ( Mark 14.62 ) " Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Poverfull, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Is he sitting beside himself ? I think that a lot of people have ben tought by the church and others who Jesus is, so they listen to them and not what the Bible (Jesus) is telling them. All what the church should be doing is , to give us the gospel , just like Jesus's apostles did and not be telling us, this means this and that means that. What the Bible is saying, thats for us (individualy) to find out. No one can be our teacher but Jesus. You are confusing issues. Saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is God and the Father is God. Jesus did not juxtapose Himself with God. He juxtaposed Himself with the Father. You are, as I said confusing essence with relationship. Jesus relationally speaking is the Son of God. That does not mean that Jesus is not God in essence and being. Your position rests on the premise that only the Father can God, and that is a premise that is contradicted numerous times in the text of Scripture. Are you saying that there is two of them (two Gods) ? Please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 25, 2007 John 10:30 The Father and I are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up rocks to stone Him. 32 Jesus replied, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these works are you stoning Me?" 33 "We aren't stoning You for a good work," the Jews answered, "but for blasphemy, and because You--being a man--make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Isn't it written in your law, I said, you are gods ? 35 If He called those to whom the word of God came 'gods'--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 do you say, 'You are blaspheming' to the One the Father set apart and sent into the world, because I said 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I am not doing My Father's works, don't believe Me. 38 But if I am doing them and you don't believe Me, believe the works. This way you will know and understand that the Father is in Me and I in the Father." Ok. so he did say Son of God ( equal to God ). But what do you make of the first part: "The Father and I are one"? If Jesus is not God, then what do you believe Jesus to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 As for Mark 14:62... Do you know what an anthropromorphism is? God the Father does not have a physical body and there does not have a "right hand." "Seated at the right hand of power" is hebraism for authority. It is speaking to the authority that Jesus will excersize during the millennium (Messianic Kingdom) when Jesus sits on the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Jesus operates in His Father's authority, but excerizes His own power. Jesus' authority is derived from the Father, but the power that Jesus uses is inherent within Him, as God. Jesus does not get His power from the Father. That, again, does not speak to the issue of Deity, but of relationship and rank. Mark is not saying that there are two thrones in heaven. In fact, there are no thrones in heaven since God the Father does not have a body, He does not "sit," and Jesus is not sitting on a throne but is operating as our High Priest. He will not sit on a Throne until the Messianic Kingdom is inaugerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Ok. so he did say Son of God ( equal to God ). If that means that he is God, then why does he pray to God (him self ) ? Why does he say in ( Mark 14.62 ) " Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Poverfull, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Is he sitting beside himself ? I think that a lot of people have ben tought by the church and others who Jesus is, so they listen to them and not what the Bible (Jesus) is telling them. All what the church should be doing is , to give us the gospel , just like Jesus's apostles did and not be telling us, this means this and that means that. What the Bible is saying, thats for us (individualy) to find out. No one can be our teacher but Jesus. You are confusing issues. Saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is God and the Father is God. Jesus did not juxtapose Himself with God. He juxtaposed Himself with the Father. You are, as I said confusing essence with relationship. Jesus relationally speaking is the Son of God. That does not mean that Jesus is not God in essence and being. Your position rests on the premise that only the Father can God, and that is a premise that is contradicted numerous times in the text of Scripture. Are you saying that there is two of them (two Gods) ? Please answer. No, there is one God. God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Consider this: Isa 41:4 - Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? ' I, the Lord, am the first; And with the last I am He.' " Isa 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isa 48:12 - "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Now compare: Revelation 1 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." 12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: In Isaiah - God calls Himself "the First and the Last." In Revelation - Jesus calls Himself "the First and the Last." If Jesus is not God, then how can He use God's title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yahweh is salvation Posted August 25, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 I realy have the problem with the whole Trinity explanation. And it is an explanation that the church gives. If Jesus is God, then why does God have to pray to anyone and ask them to be spared. " Father, if it is possible, don't let this happen to me! Father, you can do anything. Don't make me suffer by having me drink from this cup. But do what you want, and not what I want." (Mark 14.35-36 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I realy have the problem with the whole Trinity explanation. And it is an explanation that the church gives. If Jesus is God, then why does God have to pray to anyone and ask them to be spared. " Father, if it is possible, don't let this happen to me! Father, you can do anything. Don't make me suffer by having me drink from this cup. But do what you want, and not what I want." (Mark 14.35-36 ) Because as you can readily see, there is rank in Godhead. More than that, what you need to understand is that Jesus was showing us how to live. Jesus demonstrated that it was possible to live in complete dependence on the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus, while being God, wilingly gave up several Divine priviledges and took on humanity with its limitations to show that even as limited as we are, we can still live by faith in our Heavenly Father. Jesus was demonstrating the Will of the Father. Had Jesus not emptied Himself and become a servant, He would not have been much of an example to us. Jesus allowed Himself to be tempted and even allowed Himself to die. Jesus lived in complete dependence on His Father, not because Jesus could not have acted on His own, but in addition to being our example, Jesus had a mission to complete and He had to be willing to take upon Himself the full price for sin. He had to be willing bear full cup of God's wrath and justice against sin. A man could not have bore the price for sin. God Himself (who is the only savior in the world according to Isaiah) had to save man from Sin. God said in Isaiah 43:11, "I am the Lord and beside me there is no Savior. So how can Jesus and not be God, if God says that He and He alone is the Savior? If Jesus is not God, then He cannot be the Savior. That is something that only belongs to God. Consider also tha the apostle Peter declared in Acts, that there no other Name under heaven save the Name of Jesus whereby men must be saved. Jesus is the only Savior, God is the only Savior, therefore, Jesus is God. You may not care for the Trinity, but the concept is in the Bible, even if the word "trinity" is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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