John Bernall Posted December 16, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1969 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I also have read the book of Enoch, as part of my study in Genesis, I am not the most learned Bible student here, however I would issue caution when considering whether this book is to be relied upon as evidence. that is a very good point to make, Anne. without a good discernment, any extra-biblical book can be misrepresented and misleading. some have discovered so-called proof of purgatory from the Books of the Maccabbees. when doing your study of Genesis, did you research or look into the Tar'gumim? Tar'gum On'kelos or Tar'gum Yonathan? these are Aramaic interpretations which have a lot of information on various views of how the interpreters of B'reshith/Genesis saw the text. here's a link: http://www.tulane.edu/~ntcs/tgtext.htm However should you decide to continue with your couriousity into the book of Enoch, I ask you to remember that there were two Enoch's. Enoch the descendant of cain, whom the first city/town was named after and Enoch the descendant of Seth. The question I guess I have is, considering the times within, which Enoch wrote the book? the tradition of the book of Enoch isn't that Enoch himself wrote the book, but the Sons of the Prophets, who had seen a vision of the past concerning the times of Enoch, the Righteous Scribe, the Son of Jered. according to this also, those who wrote it related many oral traditions concerning Enoch and those times before the flood. many of the embellishments found therein are said to have some sort of interpretive context, that they are not to be taken literally. Shalom v'Chesed b'Yeshua, Z'ev Yochanan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I was recently reading the dead sea scrolls one of the books is called the war between darkness and light or something close to that. There are several different non-canon books which were found with the dead sea scrolls which talk about God and the war between good and evil... also discusses 200+ fallen angels, by names who are trying to overpower God. Goes into great details about the war which is supposedly impending. Heatherxoxox Ah yesh, the D.S.S i have spent the better part of 15 years researching the Qum'ran texts. so much so that my brother used to call me "Scroll Skull" the Gonzaga University Foley Center (where i live) has several volumes of the D.S.S. with the hebrew/aramaic text on one page and the english translation on the opposite page. not to mention there are literally hundreds of books published by scholars of every background. the problem with all these various books and scholars is that you have various opinions about these mysterious documents, like new age philosophy, Yeshua and Yochanan were Essenes, and other such stuff that are as wacky as they are spaced out. some say the Essenes were mystics and early Kabbalists. but from the research i have done, they weren't. they merely expounded upon various texts like the Book of Enoch, the Books of Adam and Eve, and the many apocalyptic texts of their time. much of their doctrine came from these books. the 200+ fallen angels were of a second falling of angelic beings, the first being that of "Lucifer" who is called Heylel ben Shachar in the Hebrew of Isaiah 14. the Book of the Wars of the Children of Light and Darkness is about the final apocalyptic battle between the followers of the Covenant and the Children of Belial. they believed in the coming of two Messiahs, and the spirits of truth or error influencing the hearts and minds of every one. they were truly a remarkable group, and despite the disagreement i have with many of their ideas, i would have loved to have hung out with them Yochanan I am loving what you have posted Yochanan. I believe that the 200 fallen angels are the angels in prison spoken of in Peter. Though there is alot of stuff out there I tell everyone to read with their heart. You know it is kind of like chewing up the watermelon but spitting out the seeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bernall Posted December 16, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1969 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I am loving what you have posted Yochanan. I believe that the 200 fallen angels are the angels in prison spoken of in Peter. Though there is alot of stuff out there I tell everyone to read with their heart. You know it is kind of like chewing up the watermelon but spitting out the seeds. Shalom, i am in complete agreement with you about the angels in prison. i never heard/read it that way... a watermelon i've always heard the eat the meat and spit out the bones Shalom b'Yeshua Z'ev Yochanan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil.2:12 Posted December 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 161 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/06/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/13/1934 Share Posted December 16, 2007 The extra-canonical, or Apocryphal (hidden) Books were written by people with a theological axe to grind, or a theological point to establish. Many of these "hidden" books were written by the Gnostic's to try to give the sheen of "scripture" to their beliefs. Others were written by individuals in other heresies who claimed the name of a biblical person (such as the Gospel of Peter or the Gospel of Judas) in order to have as an author a proved biblical character to add authenticity to what is in reality just a retelling of an older heresy, but with a supposed biblical author. Satan has gone to great lengths to get his false doctrines to be accepted as "scripture" only to fail miserably every time. God will always preserve the truth of the Scriptures, for it is only then that men will be able to accept the Scriptures as the "very Word of God". Satan continues to try to get his false doctrines accepted as Scriptural over and over again, however God always has men and women standing by who know the truth and are not afraid to tell what it is. The false gospels and other books full of false doctrines find little traction even after some 2000 years of "enlightenment" by Satan. So the error is kept out of the Word of God by those entrusted with sharing the Word from generation to generation. Mute testimony to the power of God to keep His Word true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bernall Posted December 27, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1969 Share Posted December 27, 2007 The extra-canonical, or Apocryphal (hidden) Books were written by people with a theological axe to grind, or a theological point to establish. Many of these "hidden" books were written by the Gnostic's to try to give the sheen of "scripture" to their beliefs. Others were written by individuals in other heresies who claimed the name of a biblical person (such as the Gospel of Peter or the Gospel of Judas) in order to have as an author a proved biblical character to add authenticity to what is in reality just a retelling of an older heresy, but with a supposed biblical author. Satan has gone to great lengths to get his false doctrines to be accepted as "scripture" only to fail miserably every time. God will always preserve the truth of the Scriptures, for it is only then that men will be able to accept the Scriptures as the "very Word of God". Satan continues to try to get his false doctrines accepted as Scriptural over and over again, however God always has men and women standing by who know the truth and are not afraid to tell what it is. The false gospels and other books full of false doctrines find little traction even after some 2000 years of "enlightenment" by Satan. So the error is kept out of the Word of God by those entrusted with sharing the Word from generation to generation. Mute testimony to the power of God to keep His Word true. Shalom Phil, many blessing be with you from the Living God. in as much as this pertains to the New Testament Apocryphal writings, i stand in agreement. however, as to much, not all, of the Old Testament Apocryphal writings i do not agree. due to the historicity of much of them, though not necessarily inspired by God, they are quoted all over the New Testament, particularly Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, 1+2 Maccabees, and even though it is a parable, a favoured one at the times, and not a literal, true story, Tobit has been quoted 17 or more times in the Gospels alone. the question to be asked is, if these books were so inspired by the Adversary, then why were they quoted or alluded to in the New Testament as well as by the Rabbinical Scholars throughout the centuries since their conception? (i speak of the Old Testament Apocryphal writings). Shalom v'Chesed b'Yeshua (Peace and Lovingkindness in Yeshua) Z'ev Yochanan here is a list of Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach and 1+2 Maccabees quoted in the New Testament. Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26 Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15 Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8 Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12 Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24 Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14 Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4 Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60 Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2 Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1 Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10 Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11 Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15 Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6 Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17 Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17 Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10 Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1 Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19 Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23 Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3 Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15 Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13 Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21 Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22 Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10 Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2 Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54 Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17 Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28 Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35 Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20 Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15 Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22 Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15 Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14 Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18 Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1 Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2 Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10 Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14 Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1 Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5 Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10 Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19 Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1 Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8 Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6 Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30] Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22 Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7 Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18 Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22 Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26 Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34 Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22 John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1 John 3:8 Sirach 16:21 John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16 John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39 John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8 John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16 John 6:35 Sirach 24:21 John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s] John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24 John 8:53 Sirach 44:19 John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4 John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59 John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18 John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9 John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3 John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11 Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26 Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19 Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12 Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7 Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32 Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32 Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6 Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10 Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19 Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40 Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21 Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1 Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25 Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc. Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1 Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8 Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7 Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc. Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19 Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26 Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21 Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41 Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9 Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30 Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10 Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3 Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4 Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20 Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17 Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1 Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9 Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18 Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6 Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10 Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7 Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17 Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5 Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31 Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49 Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1 Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6 Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5 Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15 Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1 Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15 Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24 Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4 Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23 Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11 Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21 Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19 Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11 Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24 Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12 Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23 Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12 Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7 Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8 Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11 Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13 Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4 Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1 Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34 Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27 Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18 Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9 Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20 1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s 1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13 1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10 1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10 1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8 1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18 1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17 1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23 1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19 1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2 1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s 1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3 1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23 1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6 1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s 1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s 1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1 2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15 2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16 Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13 Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17 Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1 Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13 Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7 Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9 Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3 Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17 Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18 Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21 Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19 Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23 Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6 Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s 1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3 1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18 1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8 1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14 1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18 2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7 1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11 1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5 1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15 1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3 2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16 2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60 Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30 Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6 Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17 Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30 Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41 Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16 Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10 Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17 Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1 Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1 Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52 Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20 Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2 Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25 Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42 Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14 Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24 Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23 Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10 Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2 Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19 Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17 James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27 James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20 James 1:19 Sirach 5:11 James 1:2 Sirach 2:1 James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s James 1:21 Sirach 3:17 James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27 James 3:2 Sirach 14:1 James 3:6 Sirach 5:13 James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4 James 3:10 Sirach 5:13 James 3:10 Sirach 28:12 James 3:13 Sirach 3:17 James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16 James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11 James 5:3 Sirach 29:10 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19 1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12 1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5 1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6 1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc. 1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13 2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6 2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6 2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19 2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10 Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1 Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1 Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14 Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15] Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1 Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14 Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8 Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7 Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14 Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29 Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22 Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9 Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc. Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25 Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8 Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 27, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted December 27, 2007 I also have read the book of Enoch, as part of my study in Genesis, I am not the most learned Bible student here, however I would issue caution when considering whether this book is to be relied upon as evidence. that is a very good point to make, Anne. without a good discernment, any extra-biblical book can be misrepresented and misleading. some have discovered so-called proof of purgatory from the Books of the Maccabbees. when doing your study of Genesis, did you research or look into the Tar'gumim? Tar'gum On'kelos or Tar'gum Yonathan? these are Aramaic interpretations which have a lot of information on various views of how the interpreters of B'reshith/Genesis saw the text. here's a link: http://www.tulane.edu/~ntcs/tgtext.htm However should you decide to continue with your couriousity into the book of Enoch, I ask you to remember that there were two Enoch's. Enoch the descendant of cain, whom the first city/town was named after and Enoch the descendant of Seth. The question I guess I have is, considering the times within, which Enoch wrote the book? the tradition of the book of Enoch isn't that Enoch himself wrote the book, but the Sons of the Prophets, who had seen a vision of the past concerning the times of Enoch, the Righteous Scribe, the Son of Jered. according to this also, those who wrote it related many oral traditions concerning Enoch and those times before the flood. many of the embellishments found therein are said to have some sort of interpretive context, that they are not to be taken literally. Shalom v'Chesed b'Yeshua, Z'ev Yochanan Yes that is a good point. I always tell those who might read these books to read them with their heart and God will tell you what is good and what is not. Like the book of Adam and Eve. As soon as I got top the part were it said that Adam should be worshiped because he was made in the image of God I shout the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan4257 Posted December 27, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 421 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2007 Good question, but I can not give an authoritative answer. Maybe it was because it did not contribute to God in some way? I know nothing about the Book of Enoch except for what I have found on the web. Here is one link that may interest you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch[/urp] What other books have been left out? Anyone know? OneLight The answer is many have been left out. For example, the original 1611 version of the King James bible included the following books" "Apocrypha of the King James Version The English-language King James Version of 1611 followed the lead of the Luther Bible in using an inter-testamental section labelled "Books called Apocrypha". It included those books of the Vulgate and the Septuagint which were not in Luther's canon. These are the books which are most frequently referred to by the casual appellation "the Apocrypha". They comprise the following:[7] * 1 Esdras (Vulgate 3 Esdras) * 2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras) * Tobit * Judith * Rest of Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24) * Wisdom * Ecclesiasticus (also known as Sirach) * Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy (all part of Vulgate Baruch) * Song of the Three Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90) * Story of Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13) * The Idol Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14) * Prayer of Manasses * 1 Maccabees * 2 Maccabees These books are also listed in Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England." And they did this because these books formed part of the Latin version of the bible known as the Vulgate, used by the church previously which, commissioned by Pope Damasus 1 in 382 AD, was translated by Jerome, and contained, for example 46 books in the OT compared with the present day 39, plus 3 in the Apocrypha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil.2:12 Posted December 27, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 161 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/06/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/13/1934 Share Posted December 27, 2007 (edited) The extra-canonical, or Apocryphal (hidden) Books were written by people with a theological axe to grind, or a theological point to establish. Many of these "hidden" books were written by the Gnostic's to try to give the sheen of "scripture" to their beliefs. Others were written by individuals in other heresies who claimed the name of a biblical person (such as the Gospel of Peter or the Gospel of Judas) in order to have as an author a proved biblical character to add authenticity to what is in reality just a retelling of an older heresy, but with a supposed biblical author. Satan has gone to great lengths to get his false doctrines to be accepted as "scripture" only to fail miserably every time. God will always preserve the truth of the Scriptures, for it is only then that men will be able to accept the Scriptures as the "very Word of God". Satan continues to try to get his false doctrines accepted as Scriptural over and over again, however God always has men and women standing by who know the truth and are not afraid to tell what it is. The false gospels and other books full of false doctrines find little traction even after some 2000 years of "enlightenment" by Satan. So the error is kept out of the Word of God by those entrusted with sharing the Word from generation to generation. Mute testimony to the power of God to keep His Word true. Shalom Phil, many blessing be with you from the Living God. in as much as this pertains to the New Testament Apocryphal writings, i stand in agreement. however, as to much, not all, of the Old Testament Apocryphal writings i do not agree. due to the historicity of much of them, though not necessarily inspired by God, they are quoted all over the New Testament, particularly Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, 1+2 Maccabees, and even though it is a parable, a favoured one at the times, and not a literal, true story, Tobit has been quoted 17 or more times in the Gospels alone. the question to be asked is, if these books were so inspired by the Adversary, then why were they quoted or alluded to in the New Testament as well as by the Rabbinical Scholars throughout the centuries since their conception? (i speak of the Old Testament Apocryphal writings). Shalom v'Chesed b'Yeshua (Peace and Lovingkindness in Yeshua) Z'ev Yochanan here is a list of Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach and 1+2 Maccabees quoted in the New Testament. Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26 Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15 Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8 Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12 Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24 Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14 Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4 Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60 Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2 Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1 Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10 Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11 Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15 Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6 Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17 Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17 Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10 Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1 Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19 Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23 Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3 Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15 Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13 Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21 Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22 Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10 Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2 Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54 Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17 Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28 Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35 Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20 Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15 Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22 Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15 Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14 Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18 Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1 Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2 Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10 Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14 Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1 Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5 Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10 Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19 Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1 Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8 Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6 Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30] Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22 Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7 Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18 Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22 Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26 Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34 Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22 John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1 John 3:8 Sirach 16:21 John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16 John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39 John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8 John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16 John 6:35 Sirach 24:21 John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s] John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24 John 8:53 Sirach 44:19 John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4 John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59 John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18 John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9 John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3 John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11 Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26 Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19 Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12 Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7 Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32 Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32 Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6 Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10 Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19 Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40 Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21 Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1 Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25 Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc. Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1 Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8 Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7 Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc. Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19 Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26 Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21 Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41 Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9 Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30 Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10 Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3 Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4 Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20 Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17 Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1 Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9 Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18 Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6 Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10 Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7 Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17 Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5 Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31 Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49 Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1 Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6 Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5 Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15 Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1 Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15 Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24 Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4 Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23 Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11 Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21 Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19 Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11 Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24 Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12 Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23 Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12 Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7 Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8 Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11 Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13 Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4 Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1 Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34 Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27 Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18 Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9 Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20 1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s 1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13 1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10 1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10 1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8 1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18 1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17 1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23 1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19 1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2 1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s 1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3 1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23 1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6 1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s 1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s 1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1 2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15 2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16 Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13 Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17 Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1 Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13 Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7 Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9 Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3 Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17 Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18 Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21 Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19 Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23 Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6 Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s 1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3 1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18 1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8 1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14 1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18 2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7 1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11 1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5 1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15 1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3 2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16 2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60 Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30 Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6 Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17 Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30 Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41 Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16 Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10 Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17 Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1 Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1 Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52 Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20 Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2 Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25 Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42 Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14 Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24 Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23 Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10 Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2 Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19 Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17 James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27 James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20 James 1:19 Sirach 5:11 James 1:2 Sirach 2:1 James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s James 1:21 Sirach 3:17 James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27 James 3:2 Sirach 14:1 James 3:6 Sirach 5:13 James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4 James 3:10 Sirach 5:13 James 3:10 Sirach 28:12 James 3:13 Sirach 3:17 James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16 James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11 James 5:3 Sirach 29:10 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19 1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12 1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5 1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6 1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc. 1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13 2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6 2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6 2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19 2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10 Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1 Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1 Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14 Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15] Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1 Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14 Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8 Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7 Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14 Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29 Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22 Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9 Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc. Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25 Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8 Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12 That is an impressive list of Scriptures, which I shall keep for study purposes. Just why were these not included in the OT canon (set befort New Testament times) I have not a clue. However, it appears, from your list, that the salient points in these books (points God wanted us to know about) were obviously contained within the writings that made up the New Testament canon. In my post, I was dealing with the pseudo books that were written when the books of the New Testament itself were being written. I am far more familiar with the New Testament and its history than I am of the Old Testiment and it's history. The only conclusion I can come to concerning why none of the "hidden" books, both Old Testament and New Testament are not in the separate canons is that God knows what He's doing and He, in spite of man, will place the books He wants in both canons. As far as I am concerned, both the Old Testament canon and the New Testament canon are closed and need nothing added to them in our lifetime and beyond. The similiarities between the New Testament passages that seem to match passages in some of the "hidden books" could be put down as nothing more than the Holy Spirit telling a New Testament writer the same thing He had told a writer in the Old Testament period. However, the "hidden book" may have had many errors in it and only an occasional "nugget". Why God chose to keep these books out of the Scriptural record is His business, not mine. By the way, Yochanan, I appreciate the Jewish point of view on topics like these. It provides insight that very few Gentiles possess and helps me see the point of view of those who actually wrote the Old Testament. I know that most of the writers in the New Testament were also Jewish (Luke I wonder about) but they, for the most part, were writing for Gentile readers, except of course for the Book of Hebrews, one of my favorite books. Edited December 27, 2007 by Phil.2:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted December 27, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted December 27, 2007 By AD 140, there were so many counterfeit books, letters, epistles, etc. in circulation claiming to be inspired that a decision had to be made as to what was canonical and what was not. Marcion the heretic developed the first known canon and used it to spread the gnostic heresy. The debate over what should be included and what should not lasted almost two hundred years. In AD 367, Athanasius sent a letter to the churches describing the books of the New Testament, the same as we have today: "Again it is not tedious to speak of the books of the New Testament. These are, the four gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Afterward, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic),seven, viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John."(Athanasius, L, 552). Shortly after this letter circulated, both Jerome and Augustine followed suit. Finally, a church council, the Synod of Hippo, AD 393, endorsed the list and the list was again re-endorsed by the Third Synod of Carthage in 397. Since that time, there has been no serious questioning of the accepted New Testament canon. (adapted from Evidence That Demands a Verdict, copyright 1999 by Josh D. McDowell, pp.23-25) Did you know that this same council also listed the books of the Old testament in the same decree. It is interesting that this council is credited for the canon of the New testament but within the same decree considered unreliable on the Old testament by most modern versions of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthorn Posted December 27, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/04/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/09/1984 Share Posted December 27, 2007 There is no evidence that the book of Enoch that people know today is the same book referenced in Jude. The other old books that exist today that are not in scripture are interesting reading, but are not the inspired word of God.Except that the scripture in both is almost verbatim. The book is referred to, and quoted, in Jude 14-15: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Compare this with Enoch 1:9, translated from the Ethiopic: And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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