Out of Order?

[Guest Biblicist]

We, many years ago for about 5 years, belonged to a church with female deacons, deaconesses they were called. There were many problems in that church.

So? I've been to many churches who taught the "men only" doctrine, and they had "many problems" as well.

for every problem you can possibly imagine that a female deacon might have caused, I can assure you there is a conjugate problem that a male would have caused.

What does that prove?

Nothing.

I did not make the connection between the problems in the church and women deacons, you did. I simply made a statement, and you assumed I meant that the female deacons caused those problems. Truthfully, the problems were the cause of the Pastor.

Clearly, your post was intended to bait me into that response though, based on the context of this thread. A rather deceptive ploy, but whatever. I have anger management problems, you use cheap tactics, so I guess we're even.

It is always dangerous to assume you know the motives of another.

Thank you Eric, I will say this, then with respect and in submission to the OP I'll let it go.

Now, back to the topic.

Pride is a root sin, and it creates a great deal many other sins. Anger, for example is a result of pride. I tend to get angry when things are not going as I think they should be, or someone is not doing something I think they should be. When I start to get angry, I have to stop myself and think, "what am I getting so angry about, it is because someone has upset ME, because it goes against my wishes or wants, or is it because someone is doing something against God's wishes and wants?" If I truly submit myself to God's word, and everything it teaches, I realize that God deals with people and issues in his own time.

Submit ~ hypotassō [NT use]

1) to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject

[tsth]

Well, brother Matthitjah,

I can see that they just won't hear of it, will they?

Pride and rebellion at it's best!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Vickilynn]

Shalom and good morning everyone!

I pray that our little "Time Out" has mellowed us and we now can discuss this issue with maturity, self-control and G-d's grace.

I would like to re-visit this issue:

Vickilynn posted:

Shalom Suzanne,

While I agree with the "don't marry him" statements, we need to be aware and sensitive to the fact that is not always the case in the Body.

We need to address those Christian women who HAVE married those types of husbands and encourage them in how to react to those types of husbands who are not perfect and act poorly towards them.

And while some husbands change for the better, some do not. Does that give us women license to not submit or to violate G-d's order for the marriage? NO!!

We need to teach and encourage our women to follow G-d's ways, for His ways are right.

Titus 2:3-5

3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

[tsth]

I would too Vickilynn,

Because truth of the matter is that in looking back, I would venture to guess that many marriages don't begin as Godly marriages, but hopefull will end up as 2 people who found the Lord together.

I would have to say that as hard as it sounds, the woman is responsible for winning the man over. If we look honestly at the passages within 1 Peter 3, that have been posted several times already. If we believe in God, truly, and have faith, truly, then we would be willing to step out in faith and put the principals to work, that He gave in regard to this. (That IS what faith IS!)

As I testified a couple of times, my marriage did not start as a godly marriage, but evolved into a wonderful blessing because of the Lord. He shaped us together, BUT one of us had to be patient toward the other, at different times throughout the marriage.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Oh yea...Suzanne..what would you tell your daughter?

Dads, I hope you already know this...................

To respond to tah's question, she, fortunately, wants to marry someone like her father. She knows the principals for what makes a good husband. She has seen what can cause troubles in marriages, and she also knows that the Covenant of Marriage, is nothing to fool around with. (She's 16, by the way), but we've talked about life issues since she was old enough to understand. We discuss things like divorce, because it's all around, so it's an issue that has to be addressed. We talk about the mistakes we made early on, as her parents. We talk about, her value, as a young woman, and how she should view herself, so that young men, will think no less of her, than she does. (Dads, the way you show value to your daughter, is priceless to her in her self-respect!)

We talk about money issues, and learning self-control. We talk about how a husband needs to put his family first, in all matters, including money and spending. We talk about sacrifice and her role as a woman. But, most importantly, we talk about what God says with regard to her. That's THE most important discussions we have.

Really though, Dads, you have an awesome responsibility in the shaping of your daughter, and her relationship with men. (I have to wonder why, so many young women are living with men who are not their husbands? Ever wonder about the psychology behind that, with regard to young women?)

Malachi 4

5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

In His Love,

Suzanne

Luke 1:

[Vickilynn]

I would too Vickilynn,

Because truth of the matter is that in looking back, I would venture to guess that many marriages don't begin as Godly marriages, but hopefull will end up as 2 people who found the Lord together.

Shalom Suzanne,

I agree. Even between 2 Christians! And it's not always the husband who needs to learn of G-d's ways!

I would have to say that as hard as it sounds, the woman is responsible for winning the man over. If we look honestly at the passages within 1 Peter 3, that have been posted several times already. If we believe in God, truly, and have faith, truly, then we would be willing to step out in faith and put the principals to work, that He gave in regard to this. (That IS what faith IS!)

I believe I would say that is not her responsibility to win him over per se, as it is her responsibility to WALK OUT her faith in front of him, pray for him, love and respect and submit to him and in this way, her husband will see the truth of the Scriptures and perhaps allow the L-rd into his life.

Also, if winning him over is her motive, she may be disappointed. That is G-d's job. If her motivation is to walk out HER faith unto the L-rd and let the L-rd do His job in HER life, and leave her husband at the altar, I believe G-d will be glorified.

We, as women, need to understand that we cannot force our husbands to get saved, or if he's saved, to act G-dly, all we can do is pray for them and live as WE are commanded to do - with love, respect, submission.

As I testified a couple of times, my marriage did not start as a godly marriage, but evolved into a wonderful blessing because of the Lord. He shaped us together, BUT one of us had to be patient toward the other, at different times throughout the marriage.

My hubby and I will be married 25 years in Feb and we are still a work in progress in our marriage because we are both still a work in progress in the L-rd. Neither of us will ever be perfect, but we each are doing our best to walk out our roles. And when I step "OUT OF ORDER" as you so articulately defined in the OP, it is wrong and I need to repent and get back into MY role and then G-d's order will reign, not flesh.

This is an important topic for wives, one that I am passionate about and teach about. I appreciate this thread Suzanne and your study on it. I agree with what you have posted!

[tsth]

I would have to say that as hard as it sounds, the woman is responsible for winning the man over. If we look honestly at the passages within 1 Peter 3, that have been posted several times already. If we believe in God, truly, and have faith, truly, then we would be willing to step out in faith and put the principals to work, that He gave in regard to this. (That IS what faith IS!)

I believe I would say that is not her responsibility to win him over per se, as it is her responsibility to WALK OUT her faith in front of him, pray got him, love and respect and submit to him and in this way, her husband will see the truth of the Scriptures and allow the L-rd into his life.

Also, if winning him over is her motive, she may be disappointed. That is G-d's job. If her motivation is to walk out HER faith unto the L-rd and let the L-rd do His job in HER life, and leave her husband at the altar, I believe G-d will be glorified.

We, as women, need to understand that we cannot force our husbands to get saved, or if he's saved, to act G-dly, all we can do is pray for them and live as WE are commanded to do - with love, respect, submission.

I agree, I'm afraid that I did not express it as well as I thought. I didn't mean to imply that women can change men. That's always the worst idea to have when going into a marriage. I was just trying to express this:

1 Peter 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

I would also have to say, that at the first of our marriage, my husband was soooo very patient with me!

It's been very give and take, but with regard to the roles, he's the leader of our family. And as Butero mentioned in one of his posts, when it comes down to the "final" decision, on an unresolved one, he gets the final vote. I feel for him though, because he knows that he's the one who will answer for those decisions too. It's NOT an easy job, his job.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Vickilynn]

It's been very give and take, but with regard to the roles, he's the leader of our family. And as Butero mentioned in one of his posts, when it comes down to the "final" decision, on an unresolved one, he gets the final vote. I feel for him though, because he knows that he's the one who will answer for those decisions too. It's NOT an easy job, his job.

Shalom Suzanne,

Amen, here as well. And you know, our husbands NEED our prayer and support, love, respect and submission because THEY DO have to answer for these decisions. And it's a hard job sometimes.

[tsth]

I'm curious?

What do you all think? Do standards of marriage change in regard to the man or the woman? Which one, do you think, sets the standards?

(I know God specifies, but I'm asking, which one has the greater impact on marriage standards?)

In His Love,

Suzanne