Out of Order?

[jackie d]

Dear jackie d,

If you'll go back and look, you would see that we are discussing these very things. And if we discuss the biblical roles (see the posts about teaching our daughters/what would you tell your daughter), then you will avoid the situation you mentioned, about women not having stable and godly husbands. I've tried to address that very issue within this topic. And if we'll stay civil, we can continue to discuss the issue. But, the only way we are going to be able to do this, is to put our own human ideas/feelings aside, and look at biblical principles to get back to applying them. I think the whole reason so many women are in the state they are in, is because we thought we'd do it our way/feelings without godly instruction, and thus, we ended up with marriages that weren't so great. So, now we're stuck with, the questions of, "what went wrong"?

If we don't examine our history of marriage and divorce, and be willing to be honest about it, rather than just getting our feelings hurt, then we won't be able to return to the "right" ways, which would be the ways that God intended.

In His Love,

Suzanne

agreed...

[tsth]

Please don't penalize me! I'm trying really hard to keep this thread alive and civil.

You can ask several here.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Eph 6:19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Eph 6:20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

not stepping off topic here, I don't think....do these scriptures only apply to the male gender? Are we as women out of order to believe that this applies to us as well when it comes to our role within the family unit? Are we not to teach our children the gospel, the commandments and also to walk the same? And if this does apply to us as well would this be a stepping stone to making the necessary changes in bringing the family unit back to what it was intended to be?

We are absolutely to teach our children. And I think the applicable verses that specifically deal with this, would be from Titus 2, as this addresses the role of teachings AND the order, that this topic is about.

Titus 2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. 3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. 6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Ever noticed the end of verse 5? What does it mean to "malign the word of God", and it is clearly linked to wives being subject to their husbands. Again, it's part of that order that I'm talking about.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[jackie d]

Dear jackie d,

If you'll go back and look, you would see that we are discussing these very things. And if we discuss the biblical roles (see the posts about teaching our daughters/what would you tell your daughter), then you will avoid the situation you mentioned, about women not having stable and godly husbands. I've tried to address that very issue within this topic. And if we'll stay civil, we can continue to discuss the issue. But, the only way we are going to be able to do this, is to put our own human ideas/feelings aside, and look at biblical principles to get back to applying them. I think the whole reason so many women are in the state they are in, is because we thought we'd do it our way/feelings without godly instruction, and thus, we ended up with marriages that weren't so great. So, now we're stuck with, the questions of, "what went wrong"?

If we don't examine our history of marriage and divorce, and be willing to be honest about it, rather than just getting our feelings hurt, then we won't be able to return to the "right" ways, which would be the ways that God intended.

In His Love,

Suzanne

but the biblical principles being spoken of here apply to those who ARE married or in relationships....We cannot dismiss our feelings nor can we forget them, they exist. We can speak of how to correct it so that it doesn't happen again, but if we are not in it and practicing them, they are just words and don't solve the real issues. That is my point all around. This is the part that is frustrating me the most. Talk doesn't get the problem solved....it is putting to practical use the principles of this topic that will.

And I ask you this how does one put aside all the pain and scars from a lifetime of abuse just pick up these principles and put them to use? We are all talking about the salve for the wounds but is anyone interested cleaning the wound before it is bandaged and left to heal?

Does anyone hear me? Can anyone stop for a moment to listen? There is a houseful of people who want to counsel yet don't want to address the pain, it seems that people are placing hands over their ears and singing lalalalalala very loudly so that they don't have to hear it....yet we can't counsel without it, we can't be healers if we don't know what the illness is and having enough patience and compassion to allow someone to speak of it. No the message is clear: set everything aside, forget that life has smacked you in the face and walk this way....He said come unto me all you who are burdened and heavily laden and I will give you rest...we are to exemplify Christ. But I don't see it in this....I see more burden and people being laden with heavy guilt and shame because they are incapable of having any type of relationship because of a multitude of past abuse. And then being told to shut up and stop feeling and just do what these "counselors" are telling you to do....wow!

You all are saying stay in the role that is believed that God wants us to be in....fine. But there are many like myself who are carrying open gaping bloody wounds by attempting to do just that. Define the role for the church to care for these matters....put them into practice and watch for the others to take shape as well.

You brought up in another post about maligning the word of God.....seems that everytime someone tells me to put aside what has been and how I feel inside about it is maligning the word of God...for even Christ has compassion on those who hurt. How can we justify to ourselves shutting the mouths of the wounded and place such a burden on them to perform according to what is being taught here, without helping them to find comfort, hope and joy first?

My spirit deeply grieves over this....and I have yet to find one person set on making these things clear, to stop and think a moment about what a burden these topics truly can be....I know, I will be told that if I don't care for them don't get into them....but I keep hoping beyond hope that I will find just one to trust that I can seek good caring advice and counsel from where I don't feel as if I have been put on the judgement seat. (place weeping emotion bebe here)

[Guest Biblicist]

Not to get off topic, but I think we could address Jackie D's questions, and apply Godly principles of submission at the same time. If you'll bear with me.

Isaiah 54 and Psalm 68 [as was already stated ] tells us that God will be a husband to the widowed.

5 For your Maker is your husband

[jackie d]

Not to get off topic, but I think we could address Jackie D's questions, and apply Godly principles of submission at the same time. If you'll bear with me.

Isaiah 54 and Psalm 68 [as was already stated ] tells us that God will be a husband to the widowed.

5 For your Maker is your husband

[tsth]

Dear jackie d,

I understand that you feel pain over past situations. I'm sure that many of us here, have experienced painful relationships as well, but, that doesn't mean that Scriptural Truths, must be laid aside, because they are hard to consider.

One of your comments was:

but the biblical principles being spoken of here apply to those who ARE married or in relationships....We cannot dismiss our feelings nor can we forget them, they exist. We can speak of how to correct it so that it doesn't happen again, but if we are not in it and practicing them, they are just words and don't solve the real issues. That is my point all around. This is the part that is frustrating me the most. Talk doesn't get the problem solved....it is putting to practical use the principles of this topic that will.

I have posted a couple of times with regard to counsel I give my daughter. She's 16. She's not married and she has not been in any relationships.

I understand that you are asking about "you" and your situation, but, not trying to sound rude, but if this topic doesn't address your current situation, that's no excuse to act as though we have been offensive, just because this particular thread doesn't meet your current needs. Maybe another thread will come along that does? (Although I think this one would, if you would just be willing to really consider some of the things/counsel being given here. Don't think that us married gals, didn't go thru our share of crisis' as well. (rape, abuse, etc. are just a few of the things that I know for a fact have been experienced by some of us "not naming names though") Your hardships, and emotional issues, are not exclusive to just you. We understand, because we too have experienced them. Maybe that is WHY we would be just the ones to consider for counsel, considering we're out of those places now, and have come thru to the other side, with the guidance and Word of the Lord?

I'm really just wanting to provoke others to look at the state of the family today, and take stock of what could be done to change it.........namely by considering straight-forward, precise instruction from God thru His Word.

I hope you won't forget that this was what the topic was/is about.

God bless.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[jackie d]

Dear jackie d,

I understand that you feel pain over past situations. I'm sure that many of us here, have experienced painful relationships as well, but, that doesn't mean that Scriptural Truths, must be laid aside, because they are hard to consider.

One of your comments was:

but the biblical principles being spoken of here apply to those who ARE married or in relationships....We cannot dismiss our feelings nor can we forget them, they exist. We can speak of how to correct it so that it doesn't happen again, but if we are not in it and practicing them, they are just words and don't solve the real issues. That is my point all around. This is the part that is frustrating me the most. Talk doesn't get the problem solved....it is putting to practical use the principles of this topic that will.

I have posted a couple of times with regard to counsel I give my daughter. She's 16. She's not married and she has not been in any relationships.

I understand that you are asking about "you" and your situation, but, not trying to sound rude, but if this topic doesn't address your current situation, that's no excuse to act as though we have been offensive, just because this particular thread doesn't meet your current needs. Maybe another thread will come along that does? (Although I think this one would, if you would just be willing to really consider some of the things/counsel being given here. Don't think that us married gals, didn't go thru our share of crisis' as well. (rape, abuse, etc. are just a few of the things that I know for a fact have been experienced by some of us "not naming names though") Your hardships, and emotional issues, are not exclusive to just you. We understand, because we too have experienced them. Maybe that is WHY we would be just the ones to consider for counsel, considering we're out of those places now, and have come thru to the other side, with the guidance and Word of the Lord?

I'm really just wanting to provoke others to look at the state of the family today, and take stock of what could be done to change it.........namely by considering straight-forward, precise instruction from God thru His Word.

I hope you won't forget that this was what the topic was/is about.

God bless.

In His Love,

Suzanne

thanks Suzanne...for your reply, I don't speak just for myself in this I speak for multitudes but whatever...take care

[Vickilynn]

Now as the husband, we should submit to God. God has placed authorities over all of us. Maybe not husbands, but the leaders of our churches. God supplied humans, people, to be there for us within the security of our Church. I believe that is why it is so important to have a church family. [Mind you there are several single women in our church, some never married, some divorced, older ladies who are widowed, one who is married but her husband is in jail. At least one of them, I know, goes to our pastor for counseling on a regular basis.] God set up the structure of our church for just such a purpose.

Shalom Bib,

Excellent!

Ladies without husbands are still responsible for walking out their role as G-dly women. The LOCAL church is the place where these women will receive help, ministry, love and care for her to grow as a woman of G-d. Many churches have ministries to help the single moms with things they need help with. This local BODY is where you will see it.

Yes, the older women in the L-rd are to teach the younger women according to Titus 2:3-5. A lot of churches have women "mentors" as we do in our church.

Also, in our church, we have small groups called Lifegroups and there are ladies-only LifeGroups where there is Body ministry.

I have a dear, dear friend. She is a widow with a daughter. She has had it very, very rough, but she lays her burden down at the feet of Jesus and follows His Word and is in submission to the male church leadership. G-d has met her need over and over, but it hasn't been easy for her. All sorts of people have struggles, but the bottom line is this is the time it is even MORE important to follow G-d's ways, not our own.

I encourage all women, no matter what their status, to follow G-d's holy order for the family, for it is His truth and following Him will lead to blessing and rebelling will lead to misery.

[Guest Biblicist]

Okay, now that's something I can hear and heed. Now the question I have is how does a person who has lived certain patterns in their lives recognize when they are falling back into those patterns of learned behavior for self preservation or what have you?If we don't examine the problems of the past how can we stay out of them in the future? Do you really believe that the Samaritan woman just woke up the next day a completely new person never to mistakenly pick up the old patterns or was there a process of healing and growth? Was there another person to guide her, listen to her pain and/or cry with her or was she left flailing with strict instruction of what do? That's what all of life is isn't it....growth and submission to Christ? Roles and order?

You speak of the older Christian woman having a role to play regarding the younger...so I wonder what does her role look like to the person in need of her wisdom? How does that older Christian women get through to the younger that she can trust to even be submissive to her instruction?

You ask some very poinient questions. And I believe that the secret is in submitting to the authority of a local church. NO I do not believe the Samaritan woman woke up the next day and was a completely new person. She needed discipleship. We all do. If we do not have Christians around us who understand us, where we came from, then we have no one to hold us accountable. We need someone to submit to, an older Christian lady, a pastor, deacons. That's why God created Church congregations, and the order there. So we would have support, for our protection against the temptations of the Devil. No man is an island. [to coin a phrase]

I don't think that you can ever expect someone to submit to your authority, or instruction, unless they are your children . But that does not mean you should not share what God has laid upon your heart for that person when it is called for. It's up to God to do the changing, but it is up to us to do the witnessing, sharing and counseling. Conviction is the work of the Holy Spirit, and we can not help it along. However, we are also told that the Scriptures convict men of sin, in 2 Timothy 4:2b, Paul commands the minister of the Word to "convict, reprove and urge...." Here, as you can see, it is not enough to say, "I just minister the Word and let the Holy spirit do the convicting," The minister of the Word himself is requred to convict. And there are other passages to the same effect. (1 Tim 5:20; Titus 1:9) That means bringing conviction to counselee's itself is a part of the ministry of the Word.

So what does the role of a woman offering wisdom to younger women look like? Scripture is quite clear on that.

Titus 2

3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

likewise...meaning like the men v.2 they are to be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

So when you are looking for a woman to be your mentor, look for these attributes. If you wish to mentor another, these are the attributes you should strive to have.