Out of Order?

[Vickilynn]

I am requesting that the issue of female preachers, be left in the "Women Preachers" thread. PLEASE do not take this thread from it's original direction which is regard to the family order and role affect on our society.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Shalom Suzanne,

Sorry! I'll stick to the marriage issues.

[tsth]

AGAIN, I am asking that you please respect my request, and keep this topic in line with family order, and leave the church body discussion in the other thread.

Thank you!

Thanks vickilynn. I just saw your post.

(Mods, please do not let this thread be closed, due to others not complying with my request.) Instead I would ask that those who refuse to drop the "women preacher issue", be addressed, rather than the issue of my thread, which is entirely different.)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

I am requesting that the issue of female preachers, be left in the "Women Preachers" thread. PLEASE do not take this thread from it's original direction which is regard to the family order and role affect on our society.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Shalom Suzanne,

Sorry! I'll stick to the marriage issues.

Sorry Suzanne. I will try to focus more on the marriage. I was responding to WSB, and didn't see this first. I think it went off in this direction because the other thread was closed.

That's ok Butero. Yes, I know that is what happened, and I am REALLY trying to prevent this thread from being closed and have given the mods a heads up, to watch for derailing.

Thanks!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

Let's discuss what Bib and Jackie brought up.

The woman who has an abusive husband, a non-Christian husband, NO husband - any thing other than the optimum husband who loves and leads his wife according to the Scriptures.

What can we tell them to encourage them and guide them to walk in G-d's ways, even when it's really tough going?

[tsth]

Submit to authorities...Romans 13

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.

7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Submit to one another....Ephesians 5

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Church submit to Christ.....Ephesians 5

24a Now as the church submits to Christ...

Submit to the Father....Hebrews 12

9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!

Submit to leaders....Hebrews 13

17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Submit to God....James 4

7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Submit to every authority....1 Peter 2

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,

Submit to master [employer].....1 Peter 2

18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

I have no problem understanding and obeying these verses. As I am sure that most people here don't either. My question is, why are these verses so easy to understand and expect obedience of yet the verses that tell wives to submit to husbands do not...They bring such controversy. Why? Submission always means the same thing. I never hear anyone arguing against submission to God, saying, "it doesn't mean what it says it means", "that's cultural", etc. Is it cultural to submit to authorities, your employer, leaders, The Heavenly Father, each other?

If we would be real honest with ourselves, we'd recognize that what Bib posted above, is what is at the crux of the matter. It comes down to a pride issue, and with anything that's out of order in regard to the things that God commands us, it always comes back to "pride".

That is the meaning of the following:

Job 33:14 For God does speak--now one way, now another-- though man may not perceive it. 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men as they slumber in their beds, 16 he may speak in their ears and terrify them with warnings, 17 to turn man from wrongdoing and keep him from pride,

(There is one who was created to deal with the proud, eventually)

Job 41:34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."

It is a sobering thought, if we'd take the time to think about it.

In His Love,

Suzanne

These two posts, go hand in hand.

(God, very clearly intended for a created order. Especially within the family and culture.) See Ephesians

Isaiah 3:12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path. 13 The Lord takes his place in court; he rises to judge the people. 14 The Lord enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people:

(The Teachings On Godly Order)

Ephesians 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

(Goes directly into)

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother"--which is the first commandment with a promise-- 3 "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth." 4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

(The issue of slaves, could be viewed as an employee's/worker's relation to an employer)

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. 9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

In His Love,

Suzanne

I totally agree with you that God did set up an order of authority. The first passage you gave seems to be a warning of things that happen to a nation who turns away from God. Women rule over it and children are oppressors. You then gave us scripture to show God's authority in the family, as well as the work place. In a nation that still has slavery, the scripture would certainly apply today as well.

The first recorded transgression against God was the one that occured in heaven where Lucifer rose up and tried to overthrow him. A group of angels rebelled with the devil, and they were cast out of heaven. If there is one thing satan is good at, it is stirring people's hearts to rebel against authority. That can be at home, on the job, in the church, or even against the laws of the land. Nobody likes being under someone else's authority, and you can see the anger and venim being thrown out whenever this type of topic comes up. Satan hates authority, so he leads people to oppose it.

[Guest Biblicist]

Why do so many churches have a problem with female deacons then?

We, many years ago for about 5 years, belonged to a church with female deacons, deaconesses they were called. There were many problems in that church.

[exrockstar]

Shalom,

Let's discuss what Bib and Jackie brought up.

The woman who has an abusive husband, a non-Christian husband, NO husband - any thing other than the optimum husband who loves and leads his wife according to the Scriptures.

What can we tell them to encourage them and guide them to walk in G-d's ways, even when it's really tough going?

that can be a little tough.

thats the same thing as asking...what do we tell someone AFTER they have stuck their hand in fire?

1. pray for guidance

2. proceed on studying

3. hang tight

if a female has no husband, but has moved out from home, then Christ is their head.

[tsth]

Shalom,

Let's discuss what Bib and Jackie brought up.

The woman who has an abusive husband, a non-Christian husband, NO husband - any thing other than the optimum husband who loves and leads his wife according to the Scriptures.

What can we tell them to encourage them and guide them to walk in G-d's ways, even when it's really tough going?

I gave my personal testimony in regard to my own marriage, and my husband and I BOTH needing to submit to Christ Jesus. It meant BOTH of us coming to the realization that just Naming His Name, was NOT IT!

We needed to see and believe His Truth for our lives/our marriage, and start following the blueprint! He gave us everything we need for life.

Well, I can tell you from my own marital experience, that it began with the sharing and discussion of God's Word, with my husband. (not in manner of talking down, but just sharing with him what I was understanding about our lives, from reading God's Word.) As it turned out, my husband recognized the truth of it too....He began to grow in God's Word as well.

It just started by the sharing of God's Word. We were going thru a difficult trial within our family at the time, and a pastor shared with me some passages of Scriptures, that were so very appropriate to this time in our lives. I then sat down and heartfully shared them with my husband and we began to talk about the matters, honestly, with regard to God's Word. We both began to see that the Word of God was VERY RELEVANT to US, and what we were currently going through. THAT is when God began to become real to us. When someone pointed out how powerful, and applicable His Word was, even to our little lives. That WAS the beginning, many years ago.

My husband is now a pastor. He now shares the Truth of God's Word with many people, and God restored things that were in disarray back then.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Biblicist]

We, many years ago for about 5 years, belonged to a church with female deacons, deaconesses they were called. There were many problems in that church.

So? I've been to many churches who taught the "men only" doctrine, and they had "many problems" as well.

for every problem you can possibly imagine that a female deacon might have caused, I can assure you there is a conjugate problem that a male would have caused.

What does that prove?

Nothing.

I did not make the connection between the problems in the church and women deacons, you did. I simply made a statement, and you assumed I meant that the female deacons caused those problems. Truthfully, the problems were the cause of the Pastor.

[tsth]

Shalom,

Let's discuss what Bib and Jackie brought up.

The woman who has an abusive husband, a non-Christian husband, NO husband - any thing other than the optimum husband who loves and leads his wife according to the Scriptures.

What can we tell them to encourage them and guide them to walk in G-d's ways, even when it's really tough going?

Well, I know this verse has been discussed before, but maybe this is a good time to bring it up:

1 Peter 3:1-2 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

The submissive role is not abrogated if the husband is a non-Christian. As for abusive? I don't know. I think an abusive husband speaks to so many things that I do not know where to start. Scripture says "husband love your wives" and an abusive husband is certainly not loving his wife.

What's interesting is that singularly, it all comes down to whether or not we really believe what God's Word says about certain issues, even the more difficult and uncomfortable ones.

In His Love,

Suzanne