EricH Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2008 EricH wrote: So I am guessing from this that you don't want to attempt to answer to these questions. It is however a road we need to go down. All theologies have implications. Thiose implications need to be wrestled with and answered for the theology to have vailidty and meaning. If you decide you would like to diaogue on these questions, let me know. I don't think trust in God should be used to avoid answering questions that may have implications for the positions we hold. No, you misunderstood what I meant. I wasn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2008 Well partially,, but the one thing in Romans 8:29 is this.......The kjv, goes like this, "for whom he did foreknow he also predestined etc etc. So if you put the emphasis in the past tense verb did it sounds like He only forknew some and not all. so if you were to carry on and say.....for whom He didn't foreknow ??????. I am not trying to be difficult here, just trying to tidy up some stuff in my mind.....like this for example. Jer1:5, before I formed the in the belly, I knew thee, before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. This one instance that God did foreknow Jeremiah, but does that mean Joe and Jane doe and little eric too.. In other words did God foreknow that pharoah would be set up for the oposite reason that Jeremiah was. One to Glorify God to the nations through righteousness and one for wickedness so that through his wickedness, God would be glorified. Making sense?? Where does it say that everything that God foreknew, he foreknew from the beginning of creation? Neither of those verses says that. That concept is being read into them. Why wouldn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2008 Well partially,, but the one thing in Romans 8:29 is this.......The kjv, goes like this, "for whom he did foreknow he also predestined etc etc. So if you put the emphasis in the past tense verb did it sounds like He only forknew some and not all. so if you were to carry on and say.....for whom He didn't foreknow ??????. I am not trying to be difficult here, just trying to tidy up some stuff in my mind.....like this for example. Jer1:5, before I formed the in the belly, I knew thee, before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. This one instance that God did foreknow Jeremiah, but does that mean Joe and Jane doe and little eric too.. In other words did God foreknow that pharoah would be set up for the oposite reason that Jeremiah was. One to Glorify God to the nations through righteousness and one for wickedness so that through his wickedness, God would be glorified. Making sense?? Where does it say that everything that God foreknew, he foreknew from the beginning of creation? Neither of those verses says that. That concept is being read into them. Why wouldn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2008 The point of departure here seems to me to be over the question of God's sovereignty and knowledge. Are they complete, or partial. The position that God only knows certain things and only exercises His providence in certain situations is called Open Theism. It basically states that God initiated creation and that it now proceeds according to intrinsic rules. it slao teaches that God does not know all outcomes, and that He only exercises control in specific situations. It has significant issues from a Biblical perspective as well as logically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricia1 Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,858 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/23/1957 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Erich, Now I see your point, Jesus knew me before I was in my moms womb. Today He knows what He intended for me and what in reality really is. Does He know both? Did he knew it all at one time? I believe He does... The greek word foreknow, foerknew and foreknowledge comes from the same root. To know beforehand; As in promises, warnings and predictions. Forethought. Divine and as a human as well. The word foreordained is different and was used for Christs coming and the propiation for our sin. It is only used that once in the King James version. (that I see in the concordance...I am using Strongs) My child I know sometimes what she is going to do or say because I know her so well. The there is the divine where God may show me to pray she is having a hard time. Thats divine for God knows. When God wanted to show his wrath on His people and Moses intervened with intercesstion for the moving Gos heart did our Lord know moses would intercede beforehand? Some promises of God are conditional. If the conditiond is not met the promise is nothing but a vapor. Then we become in Jeoapardy of sayin ' whats the use...God knows it already ....which is dangerous" Liars cannot get into heaven.. Show be a human on this earth who has not twisted truth, lied, exaggerated, sin my omission of a truth. Yet if this was exact fact no one will be in heaven. It is the lying heart..the one who will kill, the narcissistic one...it benefits only themselves. Genes and all that is only living matter and since we have authority over all living thing through Christ we can exercise that faith. Esaus was hated...His heart was full of anger, resentment..murder I call him the second Cain and praise the Lord esau was not able to wipe out Jacob and his see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2008 Judah Lion: God has the power to be completely sovereign, but in order to give man a free will he has given up a certain degree of sovereignty and given it to man. Otherwise there would be no evil in the world. Very good point. Where does the text say that god gave up complete sovereignty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 2, 2008 4. Who is in control of the circumstances of their lives? I believe God controls our circumstances whenever he chooses to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricia1 Posted April 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,858 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/23/1957 Share Posted April 2, 2008 it sounds like we are pawns in Gods pocket and we most definitely are not. I did not looke up foretelling for future events but knowing and knew and preordained come from prognosis. I am not sure how to spell it... Yet to tell the future is another word having to do with prophecy. Where are my word scholars here.......God is not prophecying about us prior to the womb. He knows, concrete fact. what is meant my Sovereignity? Kingship, Lordship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricia1 Posted April 3, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,858 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/23/1957 Share Posted April 3, 2008 i believe it is not God giving up any sovereignty...it is God allowing us to make a decision and 'letting His child go' to see what will happen as part of the growing up process. It is us whom decides to make the wrong decision. Jesus still remains Lord, God still is on the throne but we abdicate not allowing God to be Lord over us...Does that make sense to anyone here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 In looking at God's sovereignty, I don't see sovereignty as meaning that God controls every event and/or the outcome of every event. The problem I have with Calvinistic sovereignty is that it basically has God burning the candle at both ends. What I mean is that God on the one hand God calls all men but the Calvinistic view claims that there is a general call and a special "irresistable" call. God calls all men but that those who God predetermined to save, but keeps those whom He does not predestine to be saved to from accepting the call. They hear the gospel but are purposelfully kept from obeying it. God calls all men to repent, but then punishes the sinner for being the very unrepentant sinner God predestined Him to be. There is nothing in that sort of teaching that "glorifies" God or demonstrates any semblance of justness. This is how Calvinsim seems to explain the irretrievably wicked. What is worse is how the concept of "vessels of wrath" is taken to mean that God creates some to be vessels of wrath in order that God can be glorified. God creates them so he can destroy them in order to be glorified. This is said to be "just." God, the minute Adam sinned would have been fully justified to destroy him and Eve. That much is true. That would have been completely just. However, for God demand obedience, but prevent such obedience and then to punish or destroy the disobedient for the very disobedience God allegedly "predestined" for them to commit with no hope to be otherwiese, is not justice at all, and there is no level upon which it can be claimed to be so. In human terms, we would call that "abuse." God has both a permissive will and a perfect will. Both are soevereign. God's perfect will is that no one commit murder, but his permissive will allows men to murder. God's perfect will would be that no one lust, lie, steal, commit adultery, curse, get drunk, fornicate, etc. Yet, God allows all of those things to occur in this world despite being "in control." IN the same way, God's perfect will is that all men would be saved, but his permissive will allows man to reject the offer of salvation He gives. God's perfect will is rarely carried out in this world, at least it is carried out far less often than it should be. Free will is not a matter of God abdicating His sovereignty, and that is part of the problem I have with Calvinism. It seems to teach that either God controls the movements and actions of every person, or else, we can't say God is "sovereign" and that is simply not true. It is not at all contradictory to say that is it is God's sovereignty that gives man the choice to accept or reject the offer of salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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