Ddavid from NC Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewA Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 82 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 469 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/21/1967 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse? What do we do with it ? Learn of course. This Psalm is a prayer to God to deal with the enemies of the Psalmist, we assume could be David. We are in told to turn the other cheek. We are told quite clearly that any kind of revenge against our enemies is wrong, as Vengance is mine sayeth the Lord. Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. Yes GOd wishes to see every human "saved" but at the same time God will not tolerate his enemies and those who do wrong against his people. We see time and time in Bible how God is disgusted with any sin, anyone who rises up against God and h is people will suffer the full wrath of God, especially if the person or people involved do not undertake themselves to take any kind of revenge, be it verbal spreading hatred or physical. I have experienced this first hand myself. A number of times over past few years i have been attacked by number of my ex wife family members, I did nothing at all in form of gossiping, bad mouthing or taking any kind of revenge on them, God quickly dealt with them in his own way and brought upon them much suffering and anguish which mirrored the accusations and actions they made against me. We also see this when Israel is attacked by other nations, God has not allowed Israel to fall and the enemies of God have been wiped out and totally beaten and destroyed despite heavily out numbering the Jews. This is what we are essentially reading in Pslam 5, if you read further, verse 10 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. David what you are suggesting is an old argument that is put up against those who oppose Christianity, most notably atheists. They revel in the so called inconstancy, hypocrisies and contradictions that they perceive to exist within the Bible, especially when they deal with Gods character. After all how can a God who declares he loves everyone in the next breath destroy them etc. God made us, God can do what he likes with us, I already explained how GOd hates sin and deals with people who attack Him and His people. People seem to forget we are at war with satan, what good is it if our commander in chief, God, sits back and does nothing and simply lets our enemies walk all over us and Israel? God is our shepherd, What use is a shepherd if he allows wolves to enter the flock every night and just take any sheep they like. pretty soon there would be no more sheep left, and those still remaining may flee and leave. So in short , God wishes all of us to be saved, God hates sin, but God is no push over or politically correct when it comes to dishing out punishment revenge and protecting his people. GOd may not like taking these lives or punishing , but then that is the persons problem not Gods, for they have rejected God and risen up against God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse? What do we do with it ? Learn of course. This Psalm is a prayer to God to deal with the enemies of the Psalmist, we assume could be David. We are in told to turn the other cheek. We are told quite clearly that any kind of revenge against our enemies is wrong, as Vengance is mine sayeth the Lord. Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. Yes GOd wishes to see every human "saved" but at the same time God will not tolerate his enemies and those who do wrong against his people. We see time and time in Bible how God is disgusted with any sin, anyone who rises up against God and h is people will suffer the full wrath of God, especially if the person or people involved do not undertake themselves to take any kind of revenge, be it verbal spreading hatred or physical. I have experienced this first hand myself. A number of times over past few years i have been attacked by number of my ex wife family members, I did nothing at all in form of gossiping, bad mouthing or taking any kind of revenge on them, God quickly dealt with them in his own way and brought upon them much suffering and anguish which mirrored the accusations and actions they made against me. We also see this when Israel is attacked by other nations, God has not allowed Israel to fall and the enemies of God have been wiped out and totally beaten and destroyed despite heavily out numbering the Jews. This is what we are essentially reading in Pslam 5, if you read further, verse 10 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. David what you are suggesting is an old argument that is put up against those who oppose Christianity, most notably atheists. They revel in the so called inconstancy, hypocrisies and contradictions that they perceive to exist within the Bible, especially when they deal with Gods character. After all how can a God who declares he loves everyone in the next breath destroy them etc. God made us, God can do what he likes with us, I already explained how GOd hates sin and deals with people who attack Him and His people. People seem to forget we are at war with satan, what good is it if our commander in chief, God, sits back and does nothing and simply lets our enemies walk all over us and Israel? God is our shepherd, What use is a shepherd if he allows wolves to enter the flock every night and just take any sheep they like. pretty soon there would be no more sheep left, and those still remaining may flee and leave. So in short , God wishes all of us to be saved, God hates sin, but God is no push over or politically correct when it comes to dishing out punishment revenge and protecting his people. GOd may not like taking these lives or punishing , but then that is the persons problem not Gods, for they have rejected God and risen up against God. Andrew, thanks for your response. You are correct in identifying this passage as part of an imprecatory prayer of David. For clarity I'm not suggesting anything in posting this. It is simply a passage that doesn't fit with our comfortable beliefs concerning God and His character. People enjoy talking about the Providence of God and dismiss the aspect of His judgment and His true Sovereignty. The underlying question in this passage is David putting words in the mouth of God or is it correct? God hates sinners and their ways. Some theologs will suggest foreknowledge or foreordination plays a role, is in fact God does hate sinners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 To say that G-d loves individual sinners does, I think, border on the notion of the "universal fatherhood" of G-d. Considering these verses, I would say that G-d does not love those who do not belong to Him-- If God were your Father, you would love me. John 8:42a You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. John 8:44a The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates. Psalm 11:5 It is true that G-d loves the world (John 3:16) and sent His Son to redeem sinful man, but showing grace and mercy is not the same thing as having love for someone. G-d created the world and man is part of that creation, and man's redemption and restoration to Divine fellowship was all part of G-d's eternal plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 If God hated sinners, then He wold not have sent His Son to die for sinners. I see this scripture more as a blanket statement pertaining to the sin that is in the heart of the sinner, as if binding them as one. Are we our sins or are our sins the result of our decisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 If God hated sinners, then He wold not have sent His Son to die for sinners. I see this scripture more as a blanket statement pertaining to the sin that is in the heart of the sinner, as if binding them as one. Are we our sins or are our sins the result of our decisions? I'm playing the devils advocate here: Well when he sens your sins to hell, you go with them. So, how would He separate the two. remember we are enemies of God prior to salvation. Scripture does say "while we were yet sinners". But, then we have this verse and other countless references to his hate for sinners. how do we make sense of it and remain true to the Scripture and just not as we would prefer Him to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 If God hated sinners, then He wold not have sent His Son to die for sinners. I see this scripture more as a blanket statement pertaining to the sin that is in the heart of the sinner, as if binding them as one. Are we our sins or are our sins the result of our decisions? I'm playing the devils advocate here: Well when he sens your sins to hell, you go with them. So, how would He separate the two. remember we are enemies of God prior to salvation. Scripture does say "while we were yet sinners". But, then we have this verse and other countless references to his hate for sinners. how do we make sense of it and remain true to the Scripture and just not as we would prefer Him to be? I'll try to answer the best I can. Sins are actions. They are not spirits. When a sinner is sent to hell, it is because of their action; therefore, sins are not sent to hell but the sinner for their disobedience and rejection of God Himself. I have found no reference to God sending our sins to hell. Please provide ... As we study, pray and seek the truth through His Spirit, we mature and begin to know how to divide the scriptures and understand what the meanings are behind them. An example would be about plucking your eyes out because you lust after a beautiful woman. Are we to do this or are we to seek the strength not to lust? So, I do not believe that God hates us, but the choices we make, and because of these choices, we are either accepted into His presence or condemned to live apart for Him forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 Very good question and verses - I have to stew on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 If God hated sinners, then He wold not have sent His Son to die for sinners. I see this scripture more as a blanket statement pertaining to the sin that is in the heart of the sinner, as if binding them as one. Are we our sins or are our sins the result of our decisions? I think if you take Scripture literally (or even Calvin, for that matter), we are sin. Paul wrote of his "body of sin." To suggest that sin is merely a bad decision lessens the value of the Atonement; man doesn't need a Savior, just more knowledge to make a correct decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 If God hated sinners, then He wold not have sent His Son to die for sinners. I see this scripture more as a blanket statement pertaining to the sin that is in the heart of the sinner, as if binding them as one. Are we our sins or are our sins the result of our decisions? I think if you take Scripture literally (or even Calvin, for that matter), we are sin. Paul wrote of his "body of sin." To suggest that sin is merely a bad decision lessens the value of the Atonement; man doesn't need a Savior, just more knowledge to make a correct decision. Maybe I should of elaborated a bit more. Sin is the result of the influence of our flesh, known as our sinful nature. We have to remember that Christ died for sinners, not sin. Sin, in and of itself, can not be redeemed nor forgiven as itself, but sinners are redeemed and forgiven of their sins. I separate the two, for when we accept Christ we are believing in Him for salvation, where our sins can not accept His work on the cross. The question itself requires deep division of His words, way beyond the milk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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