Was Jerusalem Mystery Babylon?

[Metanoia]

Hello Brad,

I believe you are sincere in what you believe, but have missed the real mystery of babylon.

For one thing, what you are espousing is that Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon and destroyed in 70 AD. Yet Revelation was written in 90 AD, almost 20 years after the fact.

Secondly, Mystery Babylon would be a financial hub. Jerusalem wasn't then, and is neither now a center of finance, it's a spiritual city with deep spiritual roots.

The mystery of Babylon is at work and is continuing to work, but it's musterion will continue to elude you since you believe the mystery has been finished. Yet the mystery (musterion) is just beginning to be revealed.

For God told Daniel seal the book until the time of the end, then it would be unsealed. As Paul told the congregation in Corinth, "If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows NOTHING as he ought to know."

Don't let pride trip you up.

[Guest yod]

Brad,

I consider you a brother believe it or not.

Yet without any malice whatsoever I stand by everything I've said. The Bible also says that no scripture is of private interpretation. Why doesn't anyone else on this board see things the way you do? That should be a red flag for you.

Whether you forgive me for pointing out the truth is your problem

[Brad]

Brad,

I consider you a brother believe it or not.

Yet without any malice whatsoever I stand by everything I've said. The Bible also says that no scripture is of private interpretation. Why doesn't anyone else on this board see things the way you do? That should be a red flag for you.

Whether you forgive me for pointing out the truth is your problem

How do you know if no one else agrees with me. I heard from some who do but because of this board being so heavily monitored by doctine cops they have either left or they do not get involved.

This board BTW has many Milleiumist here with an interest in the Holy Land. Can't win. So no red flags seen from this group.

The thing I hold against you Yod is that in your pride you have never considered anything that I have said as truth and you say that I twist scripture the match what I want people to believe.

Since I've been here I have changed my views a few times and thanks to people who had some truth for me to grow in.

You as far as I can see have not even recieved one thing that I have written as been something that has caused you to grow. Have you all the truth that there is to know? Do you and your buddies continuesly pat each other on the back when it seems that you have put down someone with something that contradicted what you see as the truth. This is what I have against you and I see no change. So how in the world can I pretend that everything is all right. :sweating:

[Guest yod]

The thing I hold against you Yod is that in your pride you have never considered anything that I have said as truth and you say that I twist scripture the match what I want people to believe.

I hold nothing against you. We disagree.....that's all. I've never been offended by your attitude nor have I spoken with malice. Maybe a little sarcasm but it's not the end of the world, eh?

I've tried to consider what you have said but I can't go against what I know to be true...especially when your theories are so flimsy

You even went so far as to accuse me of not taking the Word literally while continually spiritualizing every single verse? How weird is that?

You as far as I can see have not even recieved one thing that I have written as been something that has caused you to grow. Have you all the truth that there is to know?

I have listened to everything you have said and checked against the Word. It just doesn't line up. It's not like I ignored your posts. Honestly, I couldn't believe you were even serious for the first few posts. I kept waiting for some reasonable explanation of how you came to this position.

But you have yet to give a direct answer to any objections I've raised except to once say something about being "literally spiritual" (whatever that means)

and yes, the Bible contains all the truth we need to know when we let is say what it says and align ourselves to it.

If this discussion is too much for you we can drop it. I'm really not interested in badgering you off the boards...and I'm not an agent of the "doctrine police" though I'm glad they are here.

So...given that I think you are whack and you think I'm a jerk....how can we further the cause of the gospel together? I'm all ears. :t:

[John3;16]

Why Jerusalem is not Babylon, first the millenium period would have preceeded the fall of "Babylon" Christ would have returned first in the clouds then on the mount of olives, and would be ruling all the world including Israel, nations would no longer learn war, they would have beaten thier swords into plowshares, The temple would have been built, not destroyed, Rome killed Peter, probably killed Pual, many other desciples and prophets, they have murdered many christians, burning many on stakes, using them as sport in amphitheaters, and Israel was not punished for crucifying the Lord, but for rejecting him, if you consider why christ went to the cross, he went to pay for our sins, so we are responsible for his death, Jesus said no one takes my life from me, I lay it down, and also there is no greater love than this, he who lays down his life for his friends. It also states in Zechariah 14:1 Behold the day of the Lord commeth, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

note: the day of the Lord!

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses riffled, and the woman ravished, and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. note: the Lord gathered all nations;

note: the old roman empire, and wait to see who the lord comes up against.

14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Note: the Lord fights against those nations that are gathered against Jerusalem.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereeof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south.

Note: Jesus is returing in glory, to defend the remnant of Isreal, and to destroy thos nations that come against her.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of mountains; for the valley of mountains shall reach unto Azal; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Note: Saints are returnig with Christ, these pasages correlate to Revlations return of christ.

there are many verses that align with Rev and other prophetic books like in verse 14:6 it states that it shall not be light or dark, and in verse it speaks about living waters shall go out from Jerusalem, and in verse 14:9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there there be one Lord, and his name one.

Zech 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Note: Jerusalem is where the lord will dwell, this is the restoriation of Israel, not of Rome, or gentiles, although they will be blessed during this 1000 year reign. also note, 70 A.D. Jerusalem was not inhabited safely thereafter, so this is afuture event.

Zech 14:And this is the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem: There flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in there holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Note: again this is in correlation to Rev. and take note it is the nations that come against Jerusalem that are destroyed. the lord did not intervene in 70 A.D.

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the king, the Lord of Hosts, and keep the the feast of the tabernacles.

Note: here it is the remnant of all the nations that come up to worship the Lord, who is in Jerusalem ruling.

Here are some verses that explain that israel will be restored, promises that God made to Israel, as you can see preterest do not understand prophesy,

There is an execellent book written that disputes preterist point of view:it is called: The End Times Controversy, co authers TRim Lahaye and Thomas Ice

Zech 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Juda and Jerusalem.

Zech 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zech 12:8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of suplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his only son.

Zech 13:6 And one shall say unto him, what are these wounds in thine hands? then he shall answer, those with which I was wounded in the hose of my friends.

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepard, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepard, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand upon the little ones.

Zech 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut of and die; but the third shall be left therein,

Zech 13:9 And I will Bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, the Lord is my God.

this is prophesy of Jesus and the cross and the day when Isreal realizies Jesus as king and Lord.

In Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith th Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for light by night, which devideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the Lord of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Isreal also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out benneath, I will also cast off all the seed Isreal for all that they have done, saith the Lord,

Romans 11:26 And so all Isreal shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

these verses are related to Zech 12:10

Jeremiah 32:37 Behold I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Jeremiah 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

all through scripture there are promises to Israel, these are a few that give us insight into future times, some promises have been fulfilled, but there are still many to come, the Lord said I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you. Isreal is the apple of the Lords eye. He always restored Isreal after judging her. Praise the lord!

[Guest yod]

Thanks John

There is such a huge mountain of evidence within those scriptures to refute almost every single word Brad has spoken and yet he continues to act like we are blind?

We could take it one point at a time if he has trouble with headaches.

1. When did all nations come up to fight against Jerusalem?

2. when did Jesus defeat all nations [on Mount Meggido in the Valley of Jezreel or anywhere else] who came against Israel?

3. What happened to the 200,000,000 man army from the kings of the East?

[Brad]

Hello Brad,

I believe you are sincere in what you believe, but have missed the real mystery of babylon.

For one thing, what you are espousing is that Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon and destroyed in 70 AD.  Yet Revelation was written in 90 AD, almost 20 years after the fact.

Secondly, Mystery Babylon would be a financial hub.  Jerusalem wasn't then, and is neither now a center of finance, it's a spiritual city with deep spiritual roots.

The mystery of Babylon is at work and is continuing to work, but it's musterion will continue to elude you since you believe the mystery has been finished.  Yet the mystery (musterion) is just beginning to be revealed.

For God told Daniel seal the book until the time of the end, then it would be unsealed.  As Paul told the congregation in Corinth, "If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows NOTHING as he ought to know."

Don't let pride trip you up.

Hi Metanioa.

I see that you just join worthy Boards. I'm a Preterist so my views are quite different then most people here. I get along with anyone you has different views but those who cross the line when it comes to showing respect I have a problem with. I hope we can get along better then most who like sword fighting around here.

Quote: I believe you are sincere in what you believe, but have missed the real mystery of babylon.

I think the scriptures reveal the mystery Babylon quite well as Jerusalem, how else can it be seen for whom the scriptures were written to in the first place. They weere letters to the Churches of their day. You don't think that John wrote them just for us in this generation do you?

Quote: For one thing, what you are espousing is that Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon and destroyed in 70 AD. Yet Revelation was written in 90 AD, almost 20 years after the fact.

Dating of the book of Revelation is a kind of issue that needs to be studied (as a whole). The futurist approach that we have all been taught placing pieces of the puzzle in our future, has simply not communicated well. It is like a picture puzzle. If one studies the pieces separately, he will not see the whole picture. Those who oppose the early dating of the Book of Revelation are looking at a part of the puzzle without dealing with the whole.

The "inner evidence" problem. As we shall see, the better view is that the book was written sometime between 56-70 A.D. As wide spread as agreement for the date of 96 A.D. is, one would think that there must be considerable evidence to support this position. Nothing could be further from the truth.

1- The Revelation which was made by God to John the evangelist in the island of Patmos, into which he was thrown by Nero Caesar. Thus, from the oldest and most important versions in our possession comes unequivocal testimony placing the Revelation in the time of Nero.

2- Consider the theme of the book to be Rev 1:7: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him: and all tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen." This verse is very similar in context to Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Notice also the language. It speaks of those who pierced him. Although we know that the Romans crucified him and pierced him, the apostles accused the Jews of the act. In Acts 2:23 and 36 Peter says that they crucified Jesus.

3- To the church at Philadelphia Jesus says he will make them "of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie" to come and worship before their feet. (Rev. 3:9) This is a clear reference to the utter defeat of Judaism and the destruction of the Jewish theocracy John 8:33; John 8:44 and the glory that would arise upon the New Testament church.

4 - John called himself their brother and companion in tribulation (Revelation 1:9). The problem with this [Domitian date] theory is that there is no evidence that during the last decade of the first century there occurred any open and systematic persecution of the church. Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians beyond all comparison. One of the things that doesn't fit is the persecution of Domitian. There is very little evidence for any involved persecution.

5 -According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD.

6 - The notion that the churches of Asia would not be in the state of apostasy the book of Revelation seems to describe earlier that the reign of Domitian rests upon pure supposition. That the churches of Galatia were "so soon removed" from the gospel proves that there is no substantial basis for the claim that the churches of Asia could not have apostatized early on. Indeed, Paul affirms that the apostasy associated with the latter times was well under way when he wrote Timothy. (I Tim. 4:1-6; II Tim. 3:1-5) The letter to the Hebrews speaks directly to the apostasy of Jewish believers from the faith. John also wrote of this apostasy as a present fact saying "They went out from us, but there were not of us..." (I John. 2:19) Like the spirit of Antichrist John said was already present and evidence that they were in the last days of the mosaic age (I John. 4:3), the apostasy of the church at Ephesus and those John wrote of disproves the notion that the conditions described in Revelation "must" be assigned to a later date.

7 -The second century Syrian version of the book has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.

8 -Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666. (You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible). What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666. This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the one being referred to as the beast and that the change from 666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that very reason. It is nearly impossible to find another person's name in that time frame that would do this! Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.

9 -In Revelation there seems to be only 7 churches in Asia. Historically, there seems to be many more than that after 70 AD as Christianity began to grow very rapidly.

10 - Also a Jewish problem was present in the church at Smyrna (2:9) and in the church at Philadelphia (3:9) which makes an early date more consistent.

11 - Revelation chapter 11:1-19 depicts the temple in Jerusalem as still standing. John is told to measure the temple and altar and them that worship therein. (v. 1) "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (v.2) This passage clearly indicates that the temple and city are both in existence at the time of John's writing.

12 - The end of the city of Jerusalem and the temple was the end of the Jewish world or age. There is on way John wrote the book of Revelation in 95 AD and never mentioned those things. Therefore the book was almost assuredly written before 70 AD

13 - The seven kings of Rev 17:10 help us date the book. Revelation 17:10-12 marks the period in which John wrote the Revelation. Like the reference to the city and temple, this internal evidence cannot reasonably be disputed. Chapter 17:10 states unequivocally that the sixth emperor is still on the throne: "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come." The Caesars are as follows: (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, (6) Nero. "Five are fallen" -Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius were deceased, "one is" -Nero was yet on the throne. The reign of Nero extended from 54 A.D. to 68 A.D. Therefore the book was almost assuredly written sometime between these dates.

14 -The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet. If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.

15 -The blood flowing as high as the horses' bridles would portray the gravity of judgment (Revelation 14:20). The distance of 1600 stadia (about 180 miles) just happens to be the approximate length of the land of Palestine. The "inner evidence" for a early date into the book of Revelation before AD 70 goes on and on.

16 -John identifies the enemies of God as Gog and Magog whose number is as the sand of the sea. (Revelation 20:8). A clue is given to us by God in their numbers it was as the "sand of the sea." This too can only apply to a pre-70 AD date. The only people who ever received that promise was Abrahams descendants (the Jews before AD 70) No other people received that promise.

17 - This harlot woman, or the city of Babylon that was fallen, claimed to be the true wife of the Lord and not a widow (18:9) Only Israel was seen as a wife of the Lord. (Isa 54:6; Jer 3:20) Such a claim could not be made after 70 A.D.

18 - This same defiled or harlot woman is see riding or sitting upon the back of a scarlet beast. (Revelation 17:3) The Jews organized a great persecutions against the saints of Christ who would not bow to the lordship of Caesar in order to stomp out Christianity. Being blinded by the earthly or carnal system of Moses they sought to destroy the spiritual seed of Abrahams descendants represented by Isaac and Sarah Gal. 4:21-31 by using Rome. It was in this manner that the Jews give their kingdom to the beast and riding or sitting on the back of the scarlet beast Rome. Israel offering a daily sacrifice for Nero until the beginning of the war is a well attested fact of history.

Quote:Secondly, Mystery Babylon would be a financial hub. Jerusalem wasn't then, and is neither now a center of finance, it's a spiritual city with deep spiritual roots.

Jerusalem was a Spiritual hub, as far as buying and selling Spiritual things read Isaiah 55 about buying mercy, Matt. 25 foolish virgins had to go buy oil "Holy Spirit". Rev.3 the seventh church Ladiocia had to buy garments, gold tried int he fire and eye salve. All these things had spiritual meaning.

Quote:For God told Daniel seal the book until the time of the end, then it would be unsealed. As Paul told the congregation in Corinth, "If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows NOTHING as he ought to know."

How in the world can something over 2,000 plus years be near after looking in Daniel where he was told to seal the books for the time was a far off? If you add the years from Daniel all the way to Revelation, it will seem to add up between 500 to 600 years. So, how can a number that is 600 be far off and another number which is 2,000 plus more years added, as time goes by, while waiting for the return you are looking forward for, be near? It sounds totally impossible to me for something to be near when we have already gone way over 600 years, after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, that was considered far off for Daniel. I hope that this gives you something to think about.

Quote:Don't let pride trip you up.

Around this forum it would be a miracle to have any pride at all, when 99 % disagree with 100% of what I say. Didn't Jesus have a similar problem in His day?

[Brad]

Thanks John

There is such a huge mountain of evidence within those scriptures to refute almost every single word Brad has spoken and yet he continues to act like we are blind?

We could take it one point at a time if he has trouble with headaches.

1. When did all nations come up to fight against Jerusalem?

2. when did Jesus defeat all nations [on Mount Meggido in the Valley of Jezreel or anywhere else] who came against Israel?

3. What happened to the 200,000,000 man army from the kings of the East?

Hi Yod,

Did it ever occur to you that I do not think that I know everything. Sorry I have no answer for your questions. I think if you searched some of the Preterist forums you would get a good answer from their point of view. That is if your open to it.

[Brad]

Why Jerusalem is not Babylon, first the millenium period would have preceeded the fall of "Babylon" Christ would have returned first in the clouds then on the mount of olives, and would be ruling all the world including Israel, nations would no longer learn war, they would have beaten thier swords into plowshares, The temple would have been built, not destroyed, Rome killed Peter, probably killed Pual, many other desciples and prophets, they have murdered many christians, burning many on stakes, using them as sport in amphitheaters, and Israel was not punished for crucifying the Lord, but for rejecting him, if you consider why christ went to the cross, he went to pay for our sins, so we are responsible for his death, Jesus said no one takes my life from me, I lay it down, and also there is no greater love than this, he who lays down his life for his friends. It also states in Zechariah 14:1 Behold the day of the Lord commeth, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

note: the day of the Lord!

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses riffled, and the woman ravished, and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. note: the Lord gathered all nations;

note: the old roman empire, and wait to see who the lord comes up against.

14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Note: the Lord fights against those nations that are gathered against Jerusalem.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereeof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south.

Note: Jesus is returing in glory, to defend the remnant of Isreal, and to destroy thos nations that come against her.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of mountains; for the valley of mountains shall reach unto Azal; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Note: Saints are returnig with Christ, these pasages correlate to Revlations return of christ.

there are many verses that align with Rev and other prophetic books like in verse 14:6 it states that it shall not be light or dark, and in verse it speaks about living waters shall go out from Jerusalem, and in verse 14:9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there there be one Lord, and his name one.

Zech 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Note: Jerusalem is where the lord will dwell, this is the restoriation of Israel, not of Rome, or gentiles, although they will be blessed during this 1000 year reign. also note, 70 A.D. Jerusalem was not inhabited safely thereafter, so this is afuture event.

Zech 14:And this is the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem: There flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in there holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Note: again this is in correlation to Rev. and take note it is the nations that come against Jerusalem that are destroyed. the lord did not intervene in 70 A.D.

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the king, the Lord of Hosts, and keep the the feast of the tabernacles.

Note: here it is the remnant of all the nations that come up to worship the Lord, who is in Jerusalem ruling.

Here are some verses that explain that israel will be restored, promises that God made to Israel, as you can see preterest do not understand prophesy,

There is an execellent book written that disputes preterist point of view:it is called: The End Times Controversy, co authers TRim Lahaye and Thomas Ice

Zech 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Juda and Jerusalem.

Zech 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zech 12:8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of suplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his only son.

Zech 13:6 And one shall say unto him, what are these wounds in thine hands? then he shall answer, those with which I was wounded in the hose of my friends.

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepard, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepard, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand upon the little ones.

Zech 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut of and die; but the third shall be left therein,

Zech 13:9 And I will Bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, the Lord is my God.

this is prophesy of Jesus and the cross and the day when Isreal realizies Jesus as king and Lord.

In Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith th Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for light by night, which devideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the Lord of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Isreal also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out benneath, I will also cast off all the seed Isreal for all that they have done, saith the Lord,

Romans 11:26 And so all Isreal shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

these verses are related to Zech 12:10

Jeremiah 32:37 Behold I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Jeremiah 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

all through scripture there are promises to Israel, these are a few that give us insight into future times, some promises have been fulfilled, but there are still many to come, the Lord said I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you. Isreal is the apple of the Lords eye. He always restored Isreal after judging her. Praise the lord!

To much here to answer. I'll try this bit in Zechariah 14 from a someone who knows what they are talking about.

Zechariah: The Earthquake and the Parousia, Part 4

by Don K. Preston

"And in that day His feet shall stand on Mount of Olives which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west, making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus, the Lord my God will come and all the saints with You." Zechariah 14:4-5

Zechariah is typical of almost all of the Old Covenant prophets in expressing his vision in hyperbolic language. His vision of the seige of Jerusalem entails an "earthquake" of epic proportions. The Mount of Olives would be split from east to west and a great valley would be created in which God's elect would escape his wrath against Jerusalem and the nations.

The dispensational view of this text is literalism in its crassest form. Pentecost refers to Zechariah 14 as proof that "a valley that is not in existence today shall come into being at the time of the second advent." Walvoord, commenting specifically on the judgment of Babylon says "it is hard to imagine a scene of greater worldwide disaster than is described." While his comments are made about the earthquake to destroy Babylon in Revelation, he equates that quake with Zechariah's prediction.

On the other hand, many writers see that the prophecy of Zechariah "is figurative, and was never intended to be taken literally." As King observes, one of the problems of those who demand a literal view of Zechariah is their failure to understand that Israel's restoration would come at the time of Israel's destruction. In other words, while there were physical phenomenon to be seen in the destruction of Jerusalem, there was an inner unseen reality that was the core and focus of the prophecy. There is no need to see a physical earthquake, a literal valley of escape, a literal river of life, etc.

It is clear from the context that this coming of the Lord cannot be an "end of time" scenario. Escape would be possible. This best fits Jesus' description of the possiblity of escape from the impending demise of the Old Aeon, Matthew 24:15

[Guest yod]

why would I want to look at something you've pointed to if you can't even explain why you believe it?

I mean...you can't answer even one question?

The entire long list of stuff you just posted was wrong...just wrong. I'm not going to quibble with you though. It's obvious to everyone.

Can we still be friends?