Was Jerusalem Mystery Babylon?

[John3;16]

I believe the book of Zechariah has insight into end time prophesy in chapter 14

Zechariah 14:1 Behold the day of the Lord commeth, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses riffled, and the woman ravished, and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereeof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of mountains; for the valley of mountains shall reach unto Azal; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This is speaking of national Isreal during the tribulation, not the church, and I believe scripture backs this up. there are several things to observe, Who are the nations? where is the location? (I contend that it is literal, Jerusalem) And note Christ is returning to fight against those nations Zech 14:5 and the armies that surround Jerusalem will be destroyed Zech 14:12 but the residue that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is after the tribulation when all the residue of earth shall worship the Lord during the tribulation.

Why this is Isreal:

Zech 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Juda and Jerusalem.

Zech 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zech 12:8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of suplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his only son.

Zech 13:6 And one shall say unto him, what are these wounds in thine hands? then he shall answer, those with which I was wounded in the hose of my friends.

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepard, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepard, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand upon the little ones.

Zech 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut of and die; but the third shall be left therein,

Zech 13:9 And I will Bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, the Lord is my God.

this is prophesy of Jesus and the cross and the day when Isreal realizies Jesus as king and Lord.

In Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith th Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for light by night, which devideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the Lord of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Isreal also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out benneath, I will also cast off all the seed Isreal for all that they have done, saith the Lord,

Romans 11:26 And so all Isreal shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

these verses are related to Zech 12:10

Jeremiah 32:37 Behold I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Jeremiah 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

Jeremiah 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in there hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Jeremiah 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

Jeremiah 32:42 For thus saith the Lo9rd like as I have brought all this evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

take note that Isreal was scattered 70 AD before that time single nations took them into captivity, we are seeing prophesy being fulfilled in our time, in 1947 isreal became a nation, if you read Ezekiel chapter 37 there is further revelation on Isreal being born, and when life is breathed into her. Isreal will still go through Jacobs trouble but the Lord will come and fight against those nations that surround her, then she will enter into the 1000 year raign with Jesus as Lord.

I believe that Believers will be raptured before the tribulation period.

Matt: 2431 And he shall send his angels with a great soun of a trumphet, and the shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heave to the other.

Since Christ is returning with his saints, they would have had to been taken up, (Zech 14:5) now those who are beheaded during the tribulation, they are those who observed the angels mesage in Rev 14:6 and 14:7 and had the 2 prophets and the 144000 witnesses, they are they, who do not recieve the mark of the beast.

[Brad]

Okay let look at Zechariah 14

"And in that day His feet shall stand on Mount of Olives which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west, making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus, the Lord my God will come and all the saints with You." Zechariah 14:4-5

Zechariah is typical of almost all of the Old Covenant prophets in expressing his vision in hyperbolic language. His vision of the seige of Jerusalem entails an "earthquake" of epic proportions. The Mount of Olives would be split from east to west and a great valley would be created in which God's elect would escape his wrath against Jerusalem and the nations.

The dispensational view of this text is literalism in its crassest form. Pentecost refers to Zechariah 14 as proof that "a valley that is not in existence today shall come into being at the time of the second advent." Walvoord, commenting specifically on the judgment of Babylon says "it is hard to imagine a scene of greater worldwide disaster than is described." While his comments are made about the earthquake to destroy Babylon in Revelation, he equates that quake with Zechariah's prediction.

On the other hand, many writers see that the prophecy of Zechariah "is figurative, and was never intended to be taken literally." As King observes, one of the problems of those who demand a literal view of Zechariah is their failure to understand that Israel's restoration would come at the time of Israel's destruction. In other words, while there were physical phenomenon to be seen in the destruction of Jerusalem, there was an inner unseen reality that was the core and focus of the prophecy. There is no need to see a physical earthquake, a literal valley of escape, a literal river of life, etc.

It is clear from the context that this coming of the Lord cannot be an "end of time" scenario. Escape would be possible. This best fits Jesus' description of the possiblity of escape from the impending demise of the Old Aeon, Matthew 24:15

[Brad]

Zechariah 14 & the Coming of Christ

In the premillennial view of Bible prophecy, the events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered (Zech. 13:7). This was fulfilled when Jesus says, "'You will all fall away, because it is written, "I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED"'" (Mark 14:27).

What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send "his armies" and destroy "those murderers, and set their city on fire" (Matt. 22:7).

I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17], the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech. 14:2).

This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire "extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million."1 Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the "rod of [His] anger" (Isa. 10:5). "So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations (2), generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands."2 Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70.

The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was "the day of the Lord" Jesus, on which he came to "destroy those that would not that he should reign over them" [Matt. 22:110; 24:3, 2335; Luke 19:1127, 4144]. When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted [Luke 21:2024]. A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and thus were "not cut off from the city" of God [Gal 4:2131; Heb. 12:2225].3

Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary.

Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle (14:3).

After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment. Once again, Assyria is the model: "I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets . . . So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness'" (Isa. 10:56, 1213). "It is significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem."4 Thomas Scott concurs: "It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders."5

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech. 14:4).

It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Notice how many times God's coming is associated with mountains:

* "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen. 11:5, 7).

* "So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).

* "Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).

* "Bow Thy heavens, O LORD, and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).

* "For thus says the LORD to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the LORD of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).

* "Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:1).

* "When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to " come down and tread on the high places of the earth." How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split , like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."6

What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 145220) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]."7 Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:

The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst , and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8

You will notice that there is no mention of a thousand year reign. Yet, we are told that "the LORD will be king over all the earth" (14:9). So what is new about this language? "For the LORD Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet" (Psalm 47:2, 3). This is exactly what happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Paul told the Roman Christians that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Rom. 16:20). The church's adversary (Satan) were those Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah and persecuted His Bride, the church (see John 16:2). Jesus calls them a "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 3:9).

[John3;16]

In Zech 14: 3, who are the nations?, when Israel left egypt do you believe that God appeared in the form of a literal pillar of fire, by day? did god literally intevien with plages, did the egyptions literally drown?, do you accept that noah and his family were spared from the flood? do you accept a literal flood?

In zech 14:3 as when god hardened the heart of pharoah, he will also will bring those nations against Jerusalem, and he will it says in Zech 14:3 he will fight against those nations, and in Zech 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while the stand upon there feet, and their eyes shall consume away in there holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

This is the Day Of The Lord, the previous chapter of Zech verse 8 two thirds shall be cutoff and die, but the third part shall be left therein. this chapter is speaking of Isreal, if you don't agree with this than who makes up this third part?

I believe that it is through faith in Jesus, that you recieve salvation, the law is still in effect today, if you kill you are still breaking a comandment, but jesus fulfilled the covenant, by being a substitutionary sacrifice ( payment for our sins) we are no longer under condemnation, we are dead to the law, God will chastise us but will not condemn us to hell, for any sin we comit if we are his. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, he knew of a savour, the wall of separation has been removed, the veil in the temple was rent, the holy of holies is now in heaven and we can spiritually enter with prayer, ( where the high priest would enter in once a year), We were grafted in, we share with Israel salvation, which we recieve by faith in Jesus, there is no difference between Jew and gentile all must come to faith in christ, but in Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son and shall be in bitterness for him, as one is in bitterness for his first born.

If you look at the verse before Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day i will seek to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem.

are you saying that in 70 A.D. that isreal was restored?, and God destroyed those nations that came against Jerusalem?. When did Israel look upon Jesus and mourn?, not yet, this has to be future, and not 70 A.D. future because Israel is protected by the Lord, and the Lord destroys all nations that come against Israel.

Does your bible say nations?, in Zech 12:9

In 70 A.D. Rome came against Jerusalem, not nations,

[Brad]

In Zech 14: 3, who are the nations?, when Israel left egypt do you believe that God appeared in the form of a literal pillar of fire, by day? did god literally intevien with plages, did the egyptions literally drown?, do you accept that noah and his family were spared from the flood? do you accept a literal flood?

In zech 14:3 as when god hardened the heart of pharoah, he will also will bring those nations against Jerusalem, and he will it says in Zech 14:3 he will fight against those nations, and in Zech 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while the stand upon there feet, and their eyes shall consume away in there holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

This is the Day Of The Lord, the previous chapter of Zech verse 8 two thirds shall be cutoff and die, but the third part shall be left therein. this chapter is speaking of Isreal, if you don't agree with this than who makes up this third part?

I believe that it is through faith in Jesus, that you recieve salvation, the law is still in effect today, if you kill you are still breaking a comandment, but jesus fulfilled the covenant, by being a substitutionary sacrifice ( payment for our sins) we are no longer under condemnation, we are dead to the law, God will chastise us but will not condemn us to hell, for any sin we comit if we are his. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, he knew of a savour, the wall of separation has been removed, the veil in the temple was rent, the holy of holies is now in heaven and we can spiritually enter with prayer, ( where the high priest would enter in once a year), We were grafted in, we share with Israel salvation, which we recieve by faith in Jesus, there is no difference between Jew and gentile all must come to faith in christ, but in Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son and shall be in bitterness for him, as one is in bitterness for his first born.

If you look at the verse before Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day i will seek to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem.

are you saying that in 70 A.D. that isreal was restored?, and God destroyed those nations that came against Jerusalem?. When did Israel look upon Jesus and mourn?, not yet, this has to be future, and not 70 A.D. future because Israel is protected by the Lord, and the Lord destroys all nations that come against Israel.

Does your bible say nations?, in Zech 12:9

In 70 A.D. Rome came against Jerusalem, not nations,

go back and read the posts again especially the second one. I believe in literal fulfillments when there is proof like the flood, drowning in the red sea, plagues,etc. But where scripture proves that similar things from before have a spiritual meaning then I go with that. :sleep:

[John3;16]

Brad

You gave a reference of Joel 2:28 I suggest you read all of chapter 2 and chapter 3, it is Israel that he ( the Lord ) is referring to, when the nations were gathered against Jerusalem it says that the lord fought against those nations and destroyed them, and whether you believe God used supernatural forces (unseen) or plain old supernatural (seen by the natural body) force, it reads, that he destroyed them, in an instant, check Zach 14:12 And this is the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; There flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and there eyes shall consume away in there holes, and there tonges shall consume away in their mouth.

A lot of bible scholars believe that this is nuclear weaponry, but I believe it is literal, I don

[Brad]

Joel 2:14 give us an idea when this would be fulfilled. When were meat and drink offerings in affect? Old Covenant times right. Old Covenant system was ended 70 AD completely.

Joel|2:14 Who knoweth

[John3;16]

Brad

latter day prophesy, of Israel returning to the land, recieving salvation, having the Lord living in the midst of Jerusalem, and reigning, this is the restoration of Israel, I don't see how you can dispute the overwhelming evidence.

Have you read ;

The End Times Controversy , co-authors Tim Lahaye and Thomas Ice

It deals with Preterist's views, and I believe gives strong evidence that this theory is false. As far as what I believe about latter days, end time prophesy, I try to follow what scripture teaches. I have read several books on the subject, heard numerous programs on the radio, tapes, messages at church, but the bible is the final authority.

Deuteronomy|4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all

these things are come upon thee,

[Brad]

Hey John 3:16,

You forgot to take a look in the New Tesament to see when the last days were.

Hebrews 1

God's Supreme Revelation

Christ the Fullest Revelation of God

(1) 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[1] purged our[2] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

All thoughout the episltes the time of the end was near. Jesus said how many time I come quickly. How soon is soon, 2000 years and counting? No wander why the Buddist, Muslims etc. reject Christianity. Our timing of the end should have been 70 AD. Then the whole world would have been believers by now.

[Brad]

Hey John 3:16,

You left out the New Testament scriptures about this topic of the last days, and when they were fulfilled.

Hebrews 1

God's Supreme Revelation

Christ the Fullest Revelation of God

(1) 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[1] purged our[2] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Notice here the things that were at hand were also very soon to take place

Matthew 26:18

And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, "The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.""'

(Whole Chapter: Matthew 26 In context: Matthew 26:17-19)

Matthew 26:45

Then He came to His disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

(Whole Chapter: Matthew 26 In context: Matthew 26:44-46)

Matthew 26:46

Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand."

Now notice the Kingdom of God was at hand, not meaning to come in the far out future 2000 years