What About Belief?

[Guest man]

did i say the "goal is to receive blessing" where did i say that.

Yeah you kinda did. You equated the term "rest" with "blessings".

I asked you this...

Where does it say one has to reach a certain level of knowledge in the Word before God starts providing for us?

This was your answer...

God will provide for all those that accept Christ as their saviour. However, the more you study the more

you understand how you can receive blessings. (james 23 -25) So in a sense there is a benefit when growing.

These were your quotes I used along with the question I asked...

you see where he says "add"..well..more and more..little by little..day by day...staying obedient and growing. AS you take in doctrine

you know what God expects. Then you start understanding His ways.

you don't do today what you did yesterday. you dont think about things twice.

Patience...then godliness then charity (love).

the reason i say "enter rest" is critical is because this is something we all "want to enter." this is a point in life where

youve reached spiritual maturity and know God is taking care of you.

we make the effort through study and spiritual growth that we will enter a time of peace where we are worry-free. this

"entering" is the same as the Jews entering the promise land (the land of milk and honey) where they are able to rest and enjoy the fruits of the land.

This belief is having faith that God will provide THROUGH THICK AND THIN and we are asked to reach for it so we can "rest."

Here's another quote from you regarding "rest".

We study and be obedient to His word so we can relax and cruise the remainder of our lives.

When we get bad news we smile

and know because God will take care of it. We got laid off...no problem. We work for blessing

and enjoy them.

and this is offered for you today while youre here on earth.:

So yeah....you said it.

It's really not that big a deal......but you should really pay attention to what you say.

As for this...

but lemme guess...you hear voices that tell you what to do right? you live life through feelings? nevermind doctrine

but follow that sensation.

Those little voices....those feelings.....that sensation.

It's called the Holy Spirit.

[deut31:12]

did i say "works?" imma have to go back and look.

those chapters deal with obedience.

"Works" is obedience.

[Viribus Unitis]

did i say "works?" imma have to go back and look.

those chapters deal with obedience.

"Works" is obedience.

http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html

[ALTACALL]

Wrong. I too use to think this way. What james is saying is what kind of faith is this if you treat your brother this way. To think works goes hand and hand with your faith in Christ is to add to Christ. It does seem that works is getting more print than Jesus. In my humble opinion, the word works and Jesus don't belong on the same line, paragraph or page.

What do you mean wrong?

Read this......pay attention.

Matthew 25

33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand,

[deut31:12]

BELIEF/FAITH/OBEDIENCE to God's commands are pretty much one and the same. You cannot have any of them without ALL of them.

Belief and faith I believe are basically the same, but obedience, I believe, is one step beyond faith.

One can have faith and believe in the Word of God and still not obey it.

See what I'm saying?

NOT FOR SALVATION

Every single person in the world is guilty of sinning, which is not obeying His word. To say that you do not sin is a lie itself. Salvation is a gift from God, not received by works, but by His grace through our faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. You can never ever do enough works in a million lifetimes to wash your sins away. Only Jesus is capable of this.

Yes, again we ask that you turn your caps off.

But, that is not what works are for. They are not meant to wash away sin. They are not meant to take the place of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. They are not good/shiney little man pleasing deeds. They are meant to show our walk with Christ.

Just because Jesus died on the cross for our sins freely doesn't take away from the fact that we are still commanded to keep his commandments or we forfeit our salvation.

Our works define our Christianity by repenting of our sins, confessing our faults, cutting off the affections with the lusts, fleeing from temptations, putting away the sins that so easily beset us, seeking first the kingdom of God, loving God more than father, mother, sister, etc, losing my life in this world, taking up my cross and following Christ, putting away lying, putting away stealing, fleeing fornication, putting on the fruits of the spirit, and basically obeying the scriptures that Jesus gave to us. These are the works that perfect our faith.

These specific works will not get us into heaven, but not doing them will keep us out of heaven. These works are NOT the works as being referred to in Eph 2:8,9, but they are the works referred to in Eph 2:10 that have been said that we SHOULD walk in them.

[deut31:12]

did i say "works?" imma have to go back and look.

those chapters deal with obedience.

"Works" is obedience.

http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html

I heard an interesting comment a couple years back on the radio. The commentator said that people today are taking the bible and making it conform to their lives instead of conforming their lives to reflect the teachings of the scriptures. (paraphrased)

So, basically, when we say that our salvation is predicated soley on what Ephe 2:8,9 teach then we have gotten completely away from, "ALL scripture is for instruction in righteousness". Eph and Romans are not the only scriptures that are for instruction in righteousness.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. - 1 John 3:7

We are being deceived when we are told that only Eph. 2:8,9 define our righteousness. "Doing righteousness" is our doing of the works that we have told to do in working out our salvation and in what James says.

[Guest man]

did i say "works?" imma have to go back and look.

those chapters deal with obedience.

"Works" is obedience.

http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html

I heard an interesting comment a couple years back on the radio. The commentator said that people today are taking the bible and making it conform to their lives instead of conforming their lives to reflect the teachings of the scriptures. (paraphrased)

So, basically, when we say that our salvation is predicated soley on what Ephe 2:8,9 teach then we have gotten completely away from, "ALL scripture is for instruction in righteousness". Eph and Romans are not the only scriptures that are for instruction in righteousness.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. - 1 John 3:7

We are being deceived when we are told that only Eph. 2:8,9 define our righteousness. "Doing righteousness" is our doing of the works that we have told to do in working out our salvation and in what James says.

Exactly.

If each of the 3 blind men would have taken the time to examine the entire elephant, they would have all come to the same conclusion.

[ALTACALL]

BELIEF/FAITH/OBEDIENCE to God's commands are pretty much one and the same. You cannot have any of them without ALL of them.

Belief and faith I believe are basically the same, but obedience, I believe, is one step beyond faith.

One can have faith and believe in the Word of God and still not obey it.

See what I'm saying?

NOT FOR SALVATION

Every single person in the world is guilty of sinning, which is not obeying His word. To say that you do not sin is a lie itself. Salvation is a gift from God, not received by works, but by His grace through our faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. You can never ever do enough works in a million lifetimes to wash your sins away. Only Jesus is capable of this.

Yes, again we ask that you turn your caps off.

But, that is not what works are for. They are not meant to wash away sin. They are not meant to take the place of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. They are not good/shiney little man pleasing deeds. They are meant to show our walk with Christ.

Just because Jesus died on the cross for our sins freely doesn't take away from the fact that we are still commanded to keep his commandments or we forfeit our salvation.

Our works define our Christianity by repenting of our sins, confessing our faults, cutting off the affections with the lusts, fleeing from temptations, putting away the sins that so easily beset us, seeking first the kingdom of God, loving God more than father, mother, sister, etc, losing my life in this world, taking up my cross and following Christ, putting away lying, putting away stealing, fleeing fornication, putting on the fruits of the spirit, and basically obeying the scriptures that Jesus gave to us. These are the works that perfect our faith.

These specific works will not get us into heaven, but not doing them will keep us out of heaven. These works are NOT the works as being referred to in Eph 2:8,9, but they are the works referred to in Eph 2:10 that have been said that we SHOULD walk in them.

Work is still work and work is labor whether of love, duty or neccessity. This work philosophy says grace saved me but then grace is non effect. god saves me but I keep me saved. the bible says nothing can keep me from the love of god but i agree that willfull sinning means you can walk away from god. Wayne

[ALTACALL]

We don

[deut31:12]

Where I think people are getting stuck is they are applying grace and the free gift of salvation, as explained in Eph 2:8&9, to what Christianity is entirely. Unred explained it perfectly in that Ephesians, starting from beginning of chapter, is speaking of Jesus coming to this earth and offering his life to reconcile man back to God. There is nothing that we could have or can do in the form of works to earn this. It is free to all mankind. Where the problem lies is that AFTER this we are required to walk our Christians lives according to the scriptures. As we do what the scriptures command we are doing the works that we have been ordained to do. We are doing the works that perfect our faith. We are working out our salvation in fear and trembling. These have nothing to do with Eph 2:8&9.

The works that we have been ordained to walk in have nothing to do with earning salvation. It has to do with doing the will of God AFTER we have been saved. This has a very large affect on ones Christianity that people are not seeing. Eph 2:8&9 are being used to justify not doing the works that we have been commanded to walk in.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21

This verses is just basically saying that faith alone is not what will enter us into heaven. We still have to do the will of God. That is why, "faith without works is dead".

The originality of this thread is very warranted, because the warnings have been put there for a reason and if you will notice, they were written to people who were already Christians.

One of the biggest ways we can show our unbelief is by not doing the works that we have been commanded to do according to the scriptures.

this is also why we see the different parables that Jesus did expressing the foolish virgins, counting the cost, etc. We can claim to have faith, but come up short from obtaining heaven because we didn't do what was required of us in our Christian walk with Christ.

Edited April 13, 2008 by deut31:12