Why do expect unity

[Iryssa]

I think it happened again...I can see where you've quoted Kittylover but I can't see your own reply to her post.

[kittylover0991]

I don't think we need to be uniform ("be all the same") to have unity. A body is unified, but it has many different parts (I know, in scripture that's used to discuss our various gifts and contributions, and that's part of what I'm talking about, but not all), and their differences are necessary for the healthy functioning of the body. All those different parts, however, have the same genetics as the others: you could take a blood sample from just about anywhere and (except in the case of that one rare disease I can't think of the name of) everywhere you took it from would tell you it's the same body. That's how we need to look at Christianity, I think. Though we are such different people, at the core REAL Believers all have the same "genetics," that is, we are all unified in our belief that our God is the one True God, that Jesus is Lord and that only through Him comes true Propitiation, etc.

Absolutely, each denomination has its rules, some made up, some scriptural, some...somewhere in between. And each of us gets so involved (yes, I am guilty of this as much as or more than many) in saying "I'm RIGHT! THIS is THE truth." Well, winning an argument never got a single person into heaven. No amount of skirt wearing or pant wearing tithing or not tithing or musical abstinance or musical indulgance EVER got anyone into heaven, because none of those things is THE Truth. JESUS is the Truth. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life! Nothing else. If we (I) would just stop being so darn proud and interested in being right we would stop arguing about those ridiculous things, because when it comes down to it, they aren't worth a brass farthing. HUMBLE YOURSELVES, that's what the Bible says. Chances are each one of us has SOMETHING wrong, so why do we think any one denomination is better than another (and therefore us for being involved in whichever one that may be in our minds)?

I know we're not unified like we should be. I know we're all proud, we're all dumb, we're all too interested in getting our own way. But we should NOT give up on unity.

"Disunity feeds on selfishness" - Chuck Swindoll

"If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." Philippians 2:1-4

Nowhere in there does it ever say "be uniform!" Being like-minded isn't uniformity in all those little tiny ridiculous rules, it's uniformity in ATTITUDE, that is, a Christ-like attitude of humility.

Hey Iryssa

I'm with you on that we don't all need to be uniform. I've grown up in a Christian family, and we joke that we live in cookie cutter houses becuase they all look the same, maybe with a slightly different color on some, and then all the military seems to wear monkey suits unless they are in dress colors You know, and marines with their "high and tights" for haircuts, in their dress blues, navy in their dress whites, army? who knows

We don't need to be cookie cutter Christian, and there are going to be some things that we may not completely agree on, such as whether or not communion should be closed, whether we still need to keep the sabbath or not if we just meet on a day when we should be assembled, whether the front church door should be blue or red. I know, the last one wasn't doctrine, but there are certainly things in the bible and even other things in churches (such as the color of a door ) that we are not going to disagree on and should not (I would assume for most that I listed, not sure) divide churches over something of that nature.

However, my point, as many others have said already, is that there are cetain core beliefs that we should all agree on, and even Worthy agrees with this..... Trinity, Salvation by grace through faith, Christ is risen, not saved by works, etc..... Those are core beliefs (and there are others) in which we should agree on and unless we do, there should absolutely be no unity. However, I'd like to take this a step further and some other important doctrine that the devil woudl like to say it's alright not to have unity on. Things like baptism (deals heavily in the area of salvation as to whether or not it's a part of it), what is "the church" (local or universal), whether or not tongues are for today (many I know say it has to do with salvaiton, many say it does not), as well as whether or not the Bible is the pure word of God. The heathen LAUGH at all, not because we are "zealous of good works", which is what the bible says makes us a peculiar people, but becuase we have such divisions and arguments among us....

I've gone off on a rabbit trail, but my point of that is that there ARE other CORE beliefs besides just SALVATION. Salvation is so desperately important, and we need to make sure we have that straight, but we can't allow our desire/call for unity to dismiss the fact that so many other doctrines are just as important to the Christian walk, to Christian growth itself. How can we expect unity here on worthy or in churches, when we have such differing beliefs on such DOCTRINE? How can we expect unity when we have such different ideals? I understand, we can get along, and I understand that we aren't meant to be robots or "cookie cutter Christians", as different parts make up the body as Iryssa said, but the thing is, we need to remmeber that we supposed to try to be Christ-like, like Christ..... to be like Christ, are we not in a sense trying to be that "cookie cutter Christian", at least in the way that we act and portray ourselves in a way that should honor God and bring glory to Him? Is not God constantly shaping us and molding us?

We are all part of the body, but what confusion is called when the two hands don't agree, or when the foot and the hand do not agree. When there is not unity, there is confusion and strife, and it's not productive becuase nothing gets done.

[Smalcald]

I know what you are saying.

What would be the answer though?

The fact is we have been divided quite severely for 500 years over some of the issues you speak about. The only way to achieve total unity is to entrust doctrine to one set of leaders and then follow their interpretation of scripture as if it were from God Himself.

The fact is the bible is not always clear to our eyes, and thus we disagree even when we both agree that the bible is the pure Word of God. We can make cases yes, and sound ones but to get total agreement you are going to need to recognize Church authority, and most non-Catholics will not do that.

What we end up with is what we always seem to end up with, I am right you are wrong and you are deceived and I am not, and round and round we go and this is among bible believing Christians, not to even mention the huge disagreements we will have with Christians who do not accept the infallibility of Holy Scripture.

To me it is still more important to start with the essentials of what we agree on and why. The Worthy Statement of faith for example largely mirrors my own congregation

[Iryssa]

The fact is the bible is not always clear to our eyes, and thus we disagree even when we both agree that the bible is the pure Word of God. We can make cases yes, and sound ones but to get total agreement you are going to need to recognize Church authority, and most non-Catholics will not do that.

What we end up with is what we always seem to end up with, I am right you are wrong and you are deceived and I am not, and round and round we go and this is among bible believing Christians, not to even mention the huge disagreements we will have with Christians who do not accept the infallibility of Holy Scripture.

To me it is still more important to start with the essentials of what we agree on and why. The Worthy Statement of faith for example largely mirrors my own congregation

[kittylover0991]

I know what you are saying.

What would be the answer though?

The fact is we have been divided quite severely for 500 years over some of the issues you speak about. The only way to achieve total unity is to entrust doctrine to one set of leaders and then follow their interpretation of scripture as if it were from God Himself.

The fact is the bible is not always clear to our eyes, and thus we disagree even when we both agree that the bible is the pure Word of God. We can make cases yes, and sound ones but to get total agreement you are going to need to recognize Church authority, and most non-Catholics will not do that.

What we end up with is what we always seem to end up with, I am right you are wrong and you are deceived and I am not, and round and round we go and this is among bible believing Christians, not to even mention the huge disagreements we will have with Christians who do not accept the infallibility of Holy Scripture.

To me it is still more important to start with the essentials of what we agree on and why. The Worthy Statement of faith for example largely mirrors my own congregation

[Guest man]

I don't think we need to be uniform ("be all the same") to have unity. A body is unified, but it has many different parts (I know, in scripture that's used to discuss our various gifts and contributions, and that's part of what I'm talking about, but not all), and their differences are necessary for the healthy functioning of the body. All those different parts, however, have the same genetics as the others: you could take a blood sample from just about anywhere and (except in the case of that one rare disease I can't think of the name of) everywhere you took it from would tell you it's the same body. That's how we need to look at Christianity, I think. Though we are such different people, at the core REAL Believers all have the same "genetics," that is, we are all unified in our belief that our God is the one True God, that Jesus is Lord and that only through Him comes true Propitiation, etc.

If the body isn't working together as one, you're limited to what you can do. If you're missing a leg you can't run, if your arms don't work you can't pick anything up, if your eyes don't work you can't see, etc.

In James it says "You believe there is one God, you do well, even the demons believe. and tremble.

Everyone believeing in the same God is not unity.

Here's something I posted in another thread.

The Mormons preach Christ.

The Jehovah Witness preach Christ.

The Catholics preach Christ.

The Baptists, the Methodist, the Lutherns, the non-denominationals all preach Christ.

Do they all preach the exact same message? Ask any one those denominations or any one of the twenty or so thousand I didn't mention if they believe they are the one true church of God. What do you think their answer would be?

Paul wrote to us in Corinthians stating we were all to imitate him just as he imitated Christ. We are to do everything within our power to be just like Christ. None of us will ever come close to doing that, but we should try and we don't.

I don't want to turn this into something it isn't but I want to give you some examples of where we just give up trying. I don't believe these are sins but they are in the Word and we ignore it.

Men shouldn't have long hair. A man who has long hair dishonors Christ when he prays.

Women should have long hair. Long hair was givin to woman as a covering.

Women aren't to have authority over man or teach.

These are just some examples of where we put the Word aside and do what we want.

Everyone believeing in the same God is not unity.

Nowhere in there does it ever say "be uniform!" Being like-minded isn't uniformity in all those little tiny ridiculous rules, it's uniformity in ATTITUDE, that is, a Christ-like attitude of humility.

You're absolutly right and it's those little rules that's messing everything up.

Instead of living thru the Word, we make up our own word. We make up our own little set of rules to live by. That's not imitating Christ. That's actually going against what He taught.

There can be no unity if we make up rules and call it the Word.

1 Corinthians 1:10 says it all. Be of the same mind and the same speech.

Denominations ignore that verse.

If we're going to ignore one area of the Word, why even try?

If one only looks at the food but does not eat it, he will eventually starve to death.

[Guest man]

but to get total agreement you are going to need to recognize Church authority, and most non-Catholics will not do that.

Is the catholic church the true church authority?

And just so we don't sidetracked, you can PM me with the answer.

[kittylover0991]

The Mormons preach Christ.

The Jehovah Witness preach Christ.

The Catholics preach Christ.

The Baptists, the Methodist, the Lutherns, the non-denominationals all preach Christ.

Do they all preach the exact same message? Ask any one those denominations or any one of the twenty or so thousand I didn't mention if they believe they are the one true church of God. What do you think their answer would be?

Kind of a side thought, do not many of them preach a false Christ? Mormons that Jesus is brother of Satan (and they truly believe that), they preach a works salvation, as the Roman Catholic Church does. Jehovah's witnesses do not preach the same Christ, they don't preach that there is a hell, and the Christ of the Bible preached heavily on hell. The Catholics preach Christ, but they also preach worshipping the virgin mary and joseph, and praying to dead saints as if they can help them..... Catholicism, for the most part, not including certain churches (just as most of the United Methodist churches, but there the few who do not) preach a works salvation... The Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Catholics all preach a different Christ. If a "church" preaches a work salvation, then they are preaching a different Christ, a different doctrine. Not all baptists, not all Lutherans, not all Methodists, and not all non-denominationals preach Christ, though some do, as some catholic churches do.... they do not all preach Christ.

I'm sorry if it seems like I"m nit-picking, because I truly do agree with most of what you have said, but something else you said:

1 Corinthians 1:10 says it all. Be of the same mind and the same speech.

Denominations ignore that verse.

I think denomations, in a sense, actually end up embracing this verse, I'm sorry to say. While as a whole, for all those who are actually saved, we are not of a same mind and of a same speech, the different denominations allow for there to be a same mind and same speech in a particular LOCAL church. So we have all of these different "churches", each in their own of the same mind and the same speech, which within a church is biblical, and there are churches which agree with other churches being in the same mind and same speech and what fellowship they can have! But put a Mormon Church and say a Baptist Church together? There should be NO form of fellowship.

[Guest yod]

but to get total agreement you are going to need to recognize Church authority, and most non-Catholics will not do that.

Is the catholic church the true church authority?

And just so we don't sidetracked, you can PM me with the answer.

the last time there was unity among all the believers was in Israel.

This is the one thing we all have in common and this is the only place where true unity (in the Spirit) will be accomplished. Unfortunately, it was the church at Rome where the division and acrimony between gentiles and jews began to become ugly (Romans 11:20) and from there it went into 30,000 different christian denominations based on error of the ECF (early church fathers) and the RCC.

[EricH]

but to get total agreement you are going to need to recognize Church authority, and most non-Catholics will not do that.

Is the catholic church the true church authority?

And just so we don't sidetracked, you can PM me with the answer.

the last time there was unity among all the believers was in Israel.

This is the one thing we all have in common and this is the only place where true unity (in the Spirit) will be accomplished. Unfortunately, it was the church at Rome where the division and acrimony between gentiles and jews began to become ugly (Romans 11:20) and from there it went into 30,000 different christian denominations based on error of the ECF (early church fathers) and the RCC.

And even within Israel, sects arose pretty quickly. Sectarianism and division began long before the church fathers. Even as early as Moses people were breaking off wanting to go back to Egypt. In Jesus' time there were sects and divisions.