Old Earth...Truth or Lie ?

[BobTriez]

Hopefully, this post will attract not only us believers, but also the unbelievers around here - namely Scientific Atheist. Originally, I was going to take on a debate with SA in a different thread, and in days gone by, I would have with great fervor....however, with my busy schedule these days, I simply can not afford to devote the time I would feel is reasonable.

At any rate, I write to urge all believers to study the issues! There is just as much information out there on proof of the Flood & a Young Earth ( as I believe ) as there is on the alleged old Earth theories. Now SA, I'm not picking on you ( really ), but since you are most vocal at this discussion, I can't help but use you as an example. He ( SA ) is asking us to blindly trust his faith in the science he embraces, yet dismisses any scientific fact that clearly goes against his faith ( in the science he trusts )....yet we are persuaded to take his faith blindly ? I think not.

He has faith & we have faith - only they are placed in different places....what makes his more credible that ours ? The opinion of the masses doesn't change the truth.

Here's a few places to start out on...yes, they are from a Christian perspective ( and why not ? ) so I don't need to be told that. I urge everyone to do your own research and see who's omitting facts to fit an agenda.

http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/

http://www.icr.org/faqs/

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video...n_template.html

Also do a Google search and become informed....don't just believe everything you read because it's backed by a "PhD" or "I've been a(n) xxx for so many years. Don't believe that "all those scientist can't be wrong"...got news for ya - yes they can!

Did you know the Bible actually tells us to expect this type of thing ? in 2 Peter 3:3 we read - First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

I'd say we have our fair share of scoffers around us!

God says we were created - they say we were all once a rock....they say a flood couldn't have happened - God says it did. They say matter and energy "just are" - God says He called it into existence from nothing....who will you believe?

I probably won't respond to anything asking me specific questions as that is not the intent of this post...I'll be happy to briefly explain what I believe and why, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go ( at this time - life commitments prohibit me from engaging in debate to the extent I feel I'd need to in order to be effective )....and take the knowledge you learn from your research to offer a rebuttal against atheists.

When time permits, I will step back up to the plate and debate as I've done in the past on other boards. Ten years ago, I would have wholeheartedly fought to the bitter end that the Earth was old....after my own research and filtering out the lies that modern science teaches, I am 100 % Young Earth and look forward to the time when I can once again put thoughts together and devote the time this topic deserves.

Again, Scientific Atheist, if you read this, please don't think I'm looking down on you and singling you out...not the case at all....I just don't see any difference ( on a faith basis ) in your faith [ that what scientists claim to be fact is true ] than ours, yet we're wrong because scientists "say we are".

I'd also ask maybe you ( SA ) too checkout some of the evidence and be objective about it ( I wasn't objective and yet still came to the conclusion that my previous belief that the Earth is old was wrong....it can happen ).

Blessings,

Bob

Edited May 16, 2004 by BobTriez

[Bread_of_Life]

BobTriez,

In poker, they say that all you need to raise is a strong right arm. You don't need a good hand.

Similarly, all you need to type a post are reasonably coordinated fingers. You don't need evidence to back up your argument, and you do not need to be accurately representing facts. And this very fact is proven from your post above.

Take for example this little gem as an example:

He ( SA ) is asking us to blindly trust his faith in the science he embraces,

I spent 3 hours yesterday thoroughly researching the geo-chronology of the Grand Canyon to reply to txpaleo's post on it. I consulted several university level texts, and several peer reviewed papers stating the available evidence. If only I'd thought that, instead of doing this, all I needed to do was type "you ought to believe what I believe blindly in faith". That would have been *so* much easier than finding real evidence, and explaining it in detail, which is what I did, proving what I have said all along - that I expect people to respect the evidence, not me.

Here's another example:

yet dismisses any scientific fact that clearly goes against his faith ( in the science he trusts )

It's no wonder you've presented no evidence to back up this assertion, because no evidence exists. Nowhere on this board, or elsewhere would you ever find me dogmatically believing in a scientific theory contrary to the evidence. At every twist and turn, in every debate, on every bulletin board or publication I demand evidence - as any good scientist should.

Raising the pot takes a strong right arm. Making baseless accusations takes a strong right hand. It'll take real evidence to prove it though, and that's much harder to come by.

He has faith & we have faith - only they are placed in different places....what makes his more credible that ours ?

Again, if you'd been listening to a word I've said so far on this bulletin board, and clearly you havn't, you'd have found out the difference between what I believe and faith.

Faith, as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary, is a belief lacking in sufficient evidence or proof. Yet, every single belief I have expounded on this bulletin board I would be more than happy to produce huge volumes of evidence for - and often have! Indeed, if you'd even read my signature you'd have found my favourite quote from David Hume, proclaiming that "a wise man proportions his belief to the evidence" - a practice opposite to that of having faith (which is by definition a belief that is not proportionate to the evidence).

The opinion of the masses doesn't change the truth.

Another strawman, I have never and would never make the argument ad populam. Indeed, I have said again and again that the only thing that matters is the evidence - not what I believe, not what you believe, not what 99% of the population believes. The only constant is the evidence, and this is what we should be discussing.

It would seem however, that you are more in your element making claims about me than you are making claims about the state of the evidence. This leads me to conclude that you are in fact neither familiar with me, or the evidence.

Here's a few places to start out on...yes, they are from a Christian perspective ( and why not ? ) so I don't need to be told that.

May I introduce another christian perspective on the age of the earth:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

just so that young earthers don't hog the limelight, and to make absolutely sure that noone is in any doubt that this is not a religious vs irreligious issue, but rather a science vs ignorance issue.

I urge everyone to do your own research and see who's omitting facts to fit an agenda.

Another accusation - but again baseless. I have dealt with every argument put to me, without trying to sweep anything under the rug - and I have also given plenty of links with further information and encouraged others to find out more. Again, it isn't surprising that this sort of accusation comes without any evidential backing or examples.

don't just believe everything you read because it's backed by a "PhD" or "I've been a(n) xxx for so many years.

Never used this argument. Quite the opposite in fact, I've always focussed on the evidence, not my qualifications.

Don't believe that "all those scientist can't be wrong"...

Never used this argument either. Both the above are in quotation marks btw, who are you quoting? Me? Another scientist? A strawman that you invented out of thin air purely for the basis of advancing your paper thin argument?

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

Ah, now I'm an evidence scoffer. Not that I've done any scoffing so far, nor anything particularly evil. Another accusation for the dustbin? Sure.

they say we were all once a rock....

I've never said this.

they say a flood couldn't have happened

I've never said this either.

They say matter and energy "just are"

Never said this either (not on this board anyway, or in any relation to the age of the earth, in that it has nothing to do with it at all).

I probably won't respond to anything asking me specific questions

No, you wouldn't want to answer for this post, nor would I if I simply made stuff up as I typed.

and take the knowledge you learn from your research to offer a rebuttal against atheists.

And theists, don't forget the link I gave about - born again evangelical who believes in an old earth.

after my own research and filtering out the lies that modern science teaches, I am 100 % Young Earth and look forward to the time when I can once again put thoughts together and devote the time this topic deserves.

I know, I'm such a liar! Phew, I just lie all the time. 4.2 billion years old? Pah! Never thought anyone would believe that whopper! But hey, with Satan's help, I'm convincing people!

I just don't see any difference ( on a faith basis ) in your faith [ that what scientists claim to be fact is true ]

Again, I don't care what scientists claim or believe, what is important is the evidence. You should really find out about me before commenting - perhaps by reading what I write in my posts for example!?

I'd also ask maybe you ( SA ) too checkout some of the evidence and be objective about it

Right, well, I dunno - I've never done that whole evidence checking thing before. Can you teach me?

[AllforJesustheLord]

There are possibilities for an old earth, past 6,000 years, also there are possibilities for the earth being about 6,000 years old, when Adam was created I do not think He was a baby, He was made a grown up, so trees maybe were made grown up, to me I recognize a possibility for both understandings of this, the earth is real old, and the earth is about 6,000 years old.

[Guest yod]

".....and the evening and the day.....""

is 6 months (each) if you live in Fairbanks, Alaska

[BobTriez]

BobTriez,

In poker, they say that all you need to raise is a strong right arm. You don't need a good hand.

Similarly, all you need to type a post are reasonably coordinated fingers. You don't need evidence to back up your argument, and you do not need to be accurately representing facts. And this very fact is proven from your post above.

Take for example this little gem as an example:

He ( SA ) is asking us to blindly trust his faith in the science he embraces,

I spent 3 hours yesterday thoroughly researching the geo-chronology of the Grand Canyon to reply to txpaleo's post on it. I consulted several university level texts, and several peer reviewed papers stating the available evidence. If only I'd thought that, instead of doing this, all I needed to do was type "you ought to believe what I believe blindly in faith". That would have been *so* much easier than finding real evidence, and explaining it in detail, which is what I did, proving what I have said all along - that I expect people to respect the evidence, not me.

Here's another example:

yet dismisses any scientific fact that clearly goes against his faith ( in the science he trusts )

It's no wonder you've presented no evidence to back up this assertion, because no evidence exists. Nowhere on this board, or elsewhere would you ever find me dogmatically believing in a scientific theory contrary to the evidence. At every twist and turn, in every debate, on every bulletin board or publication I demand evidence - as any good scientist should.

Raising the pot takes a strong right arm. Making baseless accusations takes a strong right hand. It'll take real evidence to prove it though, and that's much harder to come by.

He has faith & we have faith - only they are placed in different places....what makes his more credible that ours ?

Again, if you'd been listening to a word I've said so far on this bulletin board, and clearly you havn't, you'd have found out the difference between what I believe and faith.

Faith, as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary, is a belief lacking in sufficient evidence or proof. Yet, every single belief I have expounded on this bulletin board I would be more than happy to produce huge volumes of evidence for - and often have! Indeed, if you'd even read my signature you'd have found my favourite quote from David Hume, proclaiming that "a wise man proportions his belief to the evidence" - a practice opposite to that of having faith (which is by definition a belief that is not proportionate to the evidence).

The opinion of the masses doesn't change the truth.

Another strawman, I have never and would never make the argument ad populam. Indeed, I have said again and again that the only thing that matters is the evidence - not what I believe, not what you believe, not what 99% of the population believes. The only constant is the evidence, and this is what we should be discussing.

It would seem however, that you are more in your element making claims about me than you are making claims about the state of the evidence. This leads me to conclude that you are in fact neither familiar with me, or the evidence.

Here's a few places to start out on...yes, they are from a Christian perspective ( and why not ? ) so I don't need to be told that.

May I introduce another christian perspective on the age of the earth:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

just so that young earthers don't hog the limelight, and to make absolutely sure that noone is in any doubt that this is not a religious vs irreligious issue, but rather a science vs ignorance issue.

I urge everyone to do your own research and see who's omitting facts to fit an agenda.

Another accusation - but again baseless. I have dealt with every argument put to me, without trying to sweep anything under the rug - and I have also given plenty of links with further information and encouraged others to find out more. Again, it isn't surprising that this sort of accusation comes without any evidential backing or examples.

don't just believe everything you read because it's backed by a "PhD" or "I've been a(n) xxx for so many years.

Never used this argument. Quite the opposite in fact, I've always focussed on the evidence, not my qualifications.

Don't believe that "all those scientist can't be wrong"...

Never used this argument either. Both the above are in quotation marks btw, who are you quoting? Me? Another scientist? A strawman that you invented out of thin air purely for the basis of advancing your paper thin argument?

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

Ah, now I'm an evidence scoffer. Not that I've done any scoffing so far, nor anything particularly evil. Another accusation for the dustbin? Sure.

they say we were all once a rock....

I've never said this.

they say a flood couldn't have happened

I've never said this either.

They say matter and energy "just are"

Never said this either (not on this board anyway, or in any relation to the age of the earth, in that it has nothing to do with it at all).

I probably won't respond to anything asking me specific questions

No, you wouldn't want to answer for this post, nor would I if I simply made stuff up as I typed.

and take the knowledge you learn from your research to offer a rebuttal against atheists.

And theists, don't forget the link I gave about - born again evangelical who believes in an old earth.

after my own research and filtering out the lies that modern science teaches, I am 100 % Young Earth and look forward to the time when I can once again put thoughts together and devote the time this topic deserves.

I know, I'm such a liar! Phew, I just lie all the time. 4.2 billion years old? Pah! Never thought anyone would believe that whopper! But hey, with Satan's help, I'm convincing people!

I just don't see any difference ( on a faith basis ) in your faith [ that what scientists claim to be fact is true ]

Again, I don't care what scientists claim or believe, what is important is the evidence. You should really find out about me before commenting - perhaps by reading what I write in my posts for example!?

I'd also ask maybe you ( SA ) too checkout some of the evidence and be objective about it

Right, well, I dunno - I've never done that whole evidence checking thing before. Can you teach me?

Sir, you are stating things in defense mode that I never stated about you...I did not make very many assertions about you personally as you purport ( big word...huh ? - [ just trying to keep things light here ] ). I never said "SA claims we all came from a rock" nor did I say many of the claims against you that you say I made...I only used you as a baseline since you are the most vocal on these issues here. If you are offended, I will edit my post to take you out - without question; just give the word There are in fact a lot of scientists who make far fetched claims....I didn't meant to imply you were one of them ( although I do concede I believe you do make outrageous claims ).

At any rate, I don't want to fight. That get's us nowhere....please accept my apologies if I appeared to be picking a fight with you specifically. My main intent was to encourage the Christians on this board to educate themselves before taking on a learned atheistic scientist - and that is the extent of my imposing on your name...not to enter into a discussion with you about what you said/did not say...etc.

If I may throw a definition at you though please -

Science: - The study of the natural world through observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanations.

No one has observed evolution take place - correct ? Identification & descriptions are subjective at best ( depending on the point you're trying to make ) experimental investigation is fancy for "guess work because we don't know" and that leaves only theory left - which evolution is...a theory...right ? No one has proven it, yet teach it to be true. It is believed on the faith that "science is correct".

Call me names, whatever....been there many times as well as I'm sure you have. I just don't see any of it adding up; plain and simple. If that means I'm wallowing in my own ignorance *, I guess it won't matter 100 years from now when we "both cease to exist" * - right ? Or will it ? You decide.

( * not claiming you said that - rather been told that before )

I hope you will at least one day come to believe that no matter when the Earth was created, you will believe God created it....that's all that's important.

Blessings,

Bob

[BobTriez]

".....and the evening and the day.....""

is 6 months (each) if you live in Fairbanks, Alaska

Not really - I mean, their clocks are still 24 hour days right ? Not a 6 month day ( I'd hate to work that shift ). I'm not talking about sunlight ( I don't think the Earth was tilted until after the flood - but that's a different subject altogether ).

When God blessed the Sabbath & made it holy ( because He rested on it ), does that mean we can have a billion year "day" weekend then ? All I mean is God is a God of order and I think he made the Earth in 24 hour days to set a cycle for us to follow - a starting point. Whether He could have done it in a nanosecond or in 4.5 billion years is irrelevant ( we all know He could have if He chose to )....I simply don't think He chose to do it that way. We were in His master plan when He started creating and I simply believe He did things in an orderly way for us to follow.

In His service,

Bob

[Guest yod]

Not really - I mean, their clocks are still 24 hour days right ?

did someone have a clock in the Garden?

When God blessed the Sabbath & made it holy ( because He rested on it ), does that mean we can have a billion year "day" weekend

Why not?

This is one of those subjects where we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have no ill feelings toward anyone who doesn't see this the way I do...but I think that God's time clock is different than ours and the Creation account was on his time reference.

I also believe that God is STILL in the Sabbath day of creation. As Paul says in Hebrews 4:8, there is no mention of an 8th day.

[BobTriez]

Not really - I mean, their clocks are still 24 hour days right ?

did someone have a clock in the Garden?

When God blessed the Sabbath & made it holy ( because He rested on it ), does that mean we can have a billion year "day" weekend

Why not?

This is one of those subjects where we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have no ill feelings toward anyone who doesn't see this the way I do...but I think that God's time clock is different than ours and the Creation account was on his time reference.

I also believe that God is STILL in the Sabbath day of creation. As Paul says in Hebrews 4:8, there is no mention of an 8th day.

did someone have a clock in the Garden?

Dunno, but I don't think they needed to worry about time until after the fall. JMHO though. After that, they probably used the sun ( which I think God may have did things in 24 hour days to establish order for humans ). Remember, I stated I don't think the Earth was tilted until after the flood - which would mean 12 hour light & 12 hour dark anywhere on earth ( like on the equinoxes ).

This is one of those subjects where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yep, we can agree to disagree...not a problem at all.

I have no ill feelings toward anyone who doesn't see this the way I do

Neither do I.

but I think that God's time clock is different than ours and the Creation account was on his time reference.

Well, God is out of time....that's why I think he did things in order for us to follow since we are in time.

I also believe that God is STILL in the Sabbath day of creation. As Paul says in Hebrews 4:8, there is no mention of an 8th day

Very interesting...never thought of it that way....Hmmmmmm

In His service,

Bob

[Bread_of_Life]

Bob Triez

I never said "SA claims we all came from a rock" nor did I say many of the claims against you that you say I made...I only used you as a baseline since you are the most vocal on these issues here.

Fair enough. However, I would still like to know whether any scientist to your knowledge expects people to believe things in faith, or has said that we used to be a rock, or has used arguments such as "all scientists cant be wrong".

I now understand that it was your intention to encourage Christians to learn about the subject, but I can't help but feel that your post was also encouraging a false view of science as an institution.

My main intent was to encourage the Christians on this board to educate themselves before taking on a learned atheistic scientist

The more ICR they read, the more questions they'll have for me, and the more I'll be able to explain the truth about science to them - so bring it on!

Science: - The study of the natural world through observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanations.

which evolution is...a theory...right ? No one has proven it, yet teach it to be true.

These two claims are important enough to have a thread to themselves, I'll start up a couple of threads on these two topics later on today.

I hope you will at least one day come to believe that no matter when the Earth was created, you will believe God created it....that's all that's important.

Yet many of the christians who inhabit this board seem to think that it's very important that the earth is no more than 10,000 years old...

[Guest yod]

QUOTE 

I hope you will at least one day come to believe that no matter when the Earth was created, you will believe God created it....that's all that's important.

Yet many of the christians who inhabit this board seem to think that it's very important that the earth is no more than 10,000 years old...

Bob,

The "new earth" dogma is asking people to believe something that there is not enough evidence for.

I don't understand why we have to force it to be right when that is not necessarily what the Bible even claims. This is only a matter of interpretation...not science.

It reminds me of the Pope putting Galileo in jail for saying the Earth was round.