Old Earth...Truth or Lie ?

[nebula]

And in between Noah and Abraham was enough time to establish several powerful countries,

First, God blessed Noah and his sons and told them to fill the earth.

They did not however take off and start building cities and nations.

This was the cause of a problem.

They stayed put though.

Until Nimrod. Nimrod was a 'mighty hunter before the Lord. Nimrod was NOT a nice man. Nimrod is the 'Father' of the unholy trnity of Nimrod, his mother, and their son Tammuz. Nimrod, aka sungod.

Anyway, until Babel, (and except for a few pioneers that Im sure went and explored the wilderness) the people stayed there in the fertile valley that is still in headlines today.

When God confused the tongues and scattered the people, they carried with them the things they knew in sumeria. The egyptian religion mirrors that of sumeria. So do the greek, roman, and norse. Hopi indians have some amazing similarities with sumeria as well. The point is, that people didnt spread out and then build. They stayed put and learned and multiplied , and were then scattered.

This is recorded in many cultural legends around the world in the form of migration stories and creation stories that are seemingly straight out of genesis (with a few name changes).

Not a problem!

But in such a short time frame?

[Bread_of_Life]

His Son

You say you have scientific evidence. That is a deception that you have bought from data manufactured by worldly science that has an agenda of leading all they can away from God.

Really? So, let me get this straight, everyone practicing science is an athiest trying to lead people away from God, and we have a huge worldwide conspiracy to keep people away from the truth of the bible? Is that correct?

This would show you that the men who created all the different facets of science were Christians who believed in The Bible account of the 6 day creation

The people who created evolutionary theory believed in acquired characteristics. That doesn't mean that if acquired characteristics is wrong, then evolution is wrong.

Similarly, the people who created the scientific method certainly were practicing Christians, and may well have believed in the literal Genesis account. That doesn't mean that if the literal Genesis account is wrong, then science must be wrong.

The scientists of today are abandining the evolution theory by the numbers because the real scientists have proven, and have the proof both of fossil evidence, and the strata of the earth.

This is what they call "wishful thinking". Scientists are no more abandoning evolutionary theory than they were 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. Unless you can actually produce evidence for this exodus of scientists, rather than simply rumour, I would suggest that you've been conned by propaganda on creationist websites.

In your name you call yourself an atheist. I would ask you are you really an atheist? If you are it means that you don't believe in anything, and you have already stated a belief in false evidence of a false doctrine.

The word atheist doesn't mean "don't believe in anything" - it means "without theism", or "without a belief in a deity".

[BobTriez]

Really? So, let me get this straight, everyone practicing science is an athiest trying to lead people away from God, and we have a huge worldwide conspiracy to keep people away from the truth of the bible? Is that correct?

You finally got it SA ( or maybe not ). There is indeed a worldwide conspiracy trying to keep people away from the truth.

1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

That was the whole intent of my thread! It wasn't to debate with the atheist - you....it was to warn my other brothers & sisters that there is a war going on....and it's closer than some realize....

Eph 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

That's why I implored everyone to examine things from a Biblical perspective and not a worldly one ( Col 2:8 )....that was the aim of my thread. I wouldn't expect you to understand this though SA....for the Bible tells us in 2 Corinthians

- 2 Corinthians 6:14-16

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Laugh...call me names...tell me I'm ignorant - do you know what the Bible says about you SA ? The Bible says -

2 Peter 3:5

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water

Willingly ignorant...that means dumb on purpose. You refuse to believe what the Bible says about creation....hey - it's not me calling you ignorant SA, it's God. If you have a problem, talk to Him about it.

2 Peter 3:3

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And that would be you. A scoffer. I'm in no way surprised that you scoff....We are told there would be scoffers.

This thread was not to debate the age of the Earth, it was to point out that what the Bible says it true even if the odds seem against us....Jesus said "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. " ( Matt 10:22 )

You choose to be ignorant of the truth. That is your choice; but you have the Bible available to you just like the rest of us ( if not - here you go Bible Gateway ) You are on a Christian board if you have questions. As for your beliefs ( in science ) -

Colossians 2:8

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

I'll follow the Bible - at all costs. Even if it makes me look dumb!

Matthew 5:10

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessings,

Bob

[Guest mscoville]

".....and the evening and the day.....""

is 6 months (each) if you live in Fairbanks, Alaska

Oh Brother.

[Bread_of_Life]

BobTriez,

I think that it is rather far fetch that a multi-faith, secular and disparate group such as the scientific community could possibly hold together any sort of conspiracy, far less keep it going! As well as that, I have personal experience of the scientific community - and while it is by no means perfect - it is certainly open to new ideas, it has an understanding of the tentative nature of its work, and it encompasses theists of all religions and denominations.

Willingly ignorant...that means dumb on purpose.

Not quite. It means ignorant on purpose - a state of ignorance is a state of not knowing, dumbness is more not understanding.

However, I would reject this accusation in general. I am not ignorant of the bible, or the claims made therein. I am also not ignorant of the standard apologetic arguments for theism and Christianity. I simply happen to disagree with them at the moment, because I am more persuaded by the counter arguments.

That's not to say I am not ignorant of course, I am ignorant of a good many things. For example, I cannot speak German - that isn't because I don't have the means at my disposal to learn it, it's because I have chosen not to. However, I have a limited ammount of time on earth, I have to choose my learning wisely.

The ignorance I see on this board though is a mixture of willful and accidental ignorance. Some people here will never have had the access to learning materials for example, or access to learning institutions in which they might have understood the scientific method and evidence. But of course, that's why I'm here - to make the case for science - so that these people have access to it in a way that's easy to understand. And look how many people reject what I say a priori. Look at how few people have been willing to take me up on arguments head on. Observe how many people here simply criticise me rather than reading what I have to say. Look at how many people post replies to me without having read what I've said.

That my good man is willful ignorance - a self-imposed and unhappy state of naivety about the world around us, and the evidence it gives up to us. If I acted this way - if I ignored your posts or your arguments I would be happy to be accused of willful ignorance - but as it is, I think you might be throwing stones from inside a glass house...

And that would be you. A scoffer. I'm in no way surprised that you scoff....We are told there would be scoffers.

Scoff:

vb 1. (often foll. by at) to speak in a scornful and mocking way about (something)

< n 2. a mocking expression; jeer

Could you highlight or quote an instance when I have been guilty of doing this on this board? I am certainly not here to mock or jeer - but rather to educate. I don't want to laugh at you in your ignorance, but rather save you from it.

Therefore if I have scoffed, then I am sorry, but you will have to convince me of this by quoting evidence that this is what I have done.

I'll follow the Bible - at all costs. Even if it makes me look dumb!

In what sense is this not willful ignorance, if the evidence you ignore by doing this may go against your interpretation?

[BobTriez]

BobTriez,

I think that it is rather far fetch that a multi-faith, secular and disparate group such as the scientific community could possibly hold together any sort of conspiracy, far less keep it going! As well as that, I have personal experience of the scientific community - and while it is by no means perfect - it is certainly open to new ideas, it has an understanding of the tentative nature of its work, and it encompasses theists of all religions and denominations.

Willingly ignorant...that means dumb on purpose.

Not quite. It means ignorant on purpose - a state of ignorance is a state of not knowing, dumbness is more not understanding.

However, I would reject this accusation in general. I am not ignorant of the bible, or the claims made therein. I am also not ignorant of the standard apologetic arguments for theism and Christianity. I simply happen to disagree with them at the moment, because I am more persuaded by the counter arguments.

That's not to say I am not ignorant of course, I am ignorant of a good many things. For example, I cannot speak German - that isn't because I don't have the means at my disposal to learn it, it's because I have chosen not to. However, I have a limited ammount of time on earth, I have to choose my learning wisely.

The ignorance I see on this board though is a mixture of willful and accidental ignorance. Some people here will never have had the access to learning materials for example, or access to learning institutions in which they might have understood the scientific method and evidence. But of course, that's why I'm here - to make the case for science - so that these people have access to it in a way that's easy to understand. And look how many people reject what I say a priori. Look at how few people have been willing to take me up on arguments head on. Observe how many people here simply criticise me rather than reading what I have to say. Look at how many people post replies to me without having read what I've said.

That my good man is willful ignorance - a self-imposed and unhappy state of naivety about the world around us, and the evidence it gives up to us. If I acted this way - if I ignored your posts or your arguments I would be happy to be accused of willful ignorance - but as it is, I think you might be throwing stones from inside a glass house...

And that would be you. A scoffer. I'm in no way surprised that you scoff....We are told there would be scoffers.

Scoff:

vb 1. (often foll. by at) to speak in a scornful and mocking way about (something)

< n 2. a mocking expression; jeer

Could you highlight or quote an instance when I have been guilty of doing this on this board? I am certainly not here to mock or jeer - but rather to educate. I don't want to laugh at you in your ignorance, but rather save you from it.

Therefore if I have scoffed, then I am sorry, but you will have to convince me of this by quoting evidence that this is what I have done.

I'll follow the Bible - at all costs. Even if it makes me look dumb!

In what sense is this not willful ignorance, if the evidence you ignore by doing this may go against your interpretation?

I think that it is rather far fetch that a multi-faith, secular and disparate group such as the scientific community could possibly hold together any sort of conspiracy, far less keep it going!

Then you don't know the enemy I'm speaking of....read my verse quotations again.

Eph 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

You tell me whom/what that speaks of. Understand the power & ability there, and you will understand how an entire community can be deceived ( I know, it's a faith issue )

Not quite. It means ignorant on purpose - a state of ignorance is a state of not knowing, dumbness is more not understanding.

However, I would reject this accusation in general. I am not ignorant of the bible, or the claims made therein. I am also not ignorant of the standard apologetic arguments for theism and Christianity. I simply happen to disagree with them at the moment, because I am more persuaded by the counter arguments.

If you are neither ignorant ( whether willingly or not ), nor dumb, explain this to me -

2 Peter 3:5

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water

You claim to understand it ( per your claim you are not ignorant of the Bible ), but you don't believe it - why ? God said....need it say more ? Again, I understand it's an issue of faith ( on my part to believe it ).

But of course, that's why I'm here - to make the case for science

And likewise, I'm here to present the case for God.

Could you highlight or quote an instance when I have been guilty of doing this on this board?

You do it in a much subtler way. This is my personal feeling, but I personally feel mocked when God is mocked. And by denouncing the Biblical events of creation and the existence of God, you mock Him. The Bible says you are a fool ( not me, the Bible - Psalm 53:1 ). You have been very cordial with me and I appreciate that ( and I hope I the same - if not, we need to go private to work this out )....however I am offended by your persistent denial of God and by more than mere implication, calling my God a liar.

I don't want to laugh at you in your ignorance, but rather save you from it.

And I the same....I want to help bring you to a saving knowledge of Jesus and His offer.

In what sense is this not willful ignorance, if the evidence you ignore by doing this may go against your interpretation?

The key word was look....I don't care if I appear to be ignorant as you claim I am - " I don't want to laugh at you in your ignorance ".

Like I stated, you have been very cordial with me ( and most others ) and I appreciate that. My offence from you is personal ( and you are most likely unaware you are even doing it ).... but, it can't be rectified until you proclaim that God created the Earth and Jesus is Lord. If you can't do that ( and it is your choice ), then we really have little in common ( 2 Corinthians 6:14-16 ). We can still debate, discuss, etc., but understand the Word of God is firm. It will not change and neither will I. I'm not sure about you [ willingness to change ] - that's your call to make, I wouldn't want to presume anything )

Blessings,

Bob

[Bread_of_Life]

Bob,

There is very little I can do to convince you that I am not satanically driven, or that I do not come here to mock you or God. The reason there is very little to be done is that I am a guy in England sitting at a computer keyboard, and you are a guy in American sitting at a computer keyboard, and since there is no personal contact between us, it will be impossible for me to prove anything about me whatsoever.

I could be satan himself - I wouldn't even need a disguise because the internet is essentially anonymous. I could know fine well God exists, but be denying it anyway to try to lead people away from him, or out of my anger at him. I could secretly be enjoying the fact that many people on this board are ignorant of science, and inwardly (or even outwardly) laughing at them. I cannot prove that I am not, because I have no method at my disposal for such proof, and you already seem convinced of my bad intentions.

Therefore all I can say to you is: "sorry, but we'll have to agree to differ" - since this discussion has gone as far as it can. I do hope that through my conduct on this board you will one day be convinced that I am not really as bad or as stupid or as ignorant or as foolish as you think I am - but then I am not here to convince you of my intelligence or enlightenment or anything else about me, but rather I am here to tell people about science.

[BobTriez]

Bob,

There is very little I can do to convince you that I am not satanically driven, or that I do not come here to mock you or God. The reason there is very little to be done is that I am a guy in England sitting at a computer keyboard, and you are a guy in American sitting at a computer keyboard, and since there is no personal contact between us, it will be impossible for me to prove anything about me whatsoever.

I could be satan himself - I wouldn't even need a disguise because the internet is essentially anonymous. I could know fine well God exists, but be denying it anyway to try to lead people away from him, or out of my anger at him. I could secretly be enjoying the fact that many people on this board are ignorant of science, and inwardly (or even outwardly) laughing at them. I cannot prove that I am not, because I have no method at my disposal for such proof, and you already seem convinced of my bad intentions.

Therefore all I can say to you is: "sorry, but we'll have to agree to differ" - since this discussion has gone as far as it can. I do hope that through my conduct on this board you will one day be convinced that I am not really as bad or as stupid or as ignorant or as foolish as you think I am - but then I am not here to convince you of my intelligence or enlightenment or anything else about me, but rather I am here to tell people about science.

Two things -

1.)

Therefore all I can say to you is: "sorry, but we'll have to agree to differ" - since this discussion has gone as far as it can

I can do that - in fact, I suggested this a few days ago in this thread

2.)

one day be convinced that I am not really as bad or as stupid or as ignorant or as foolish as you think I am

I don't recall calling you "bad" or "stupid". I did say that in a Biblical context, you are willfully ignorant of what the Bible says about Creation and since you say there is no God, that would make you a fool ( Psalm 53 ). I was once a fool and I was once willfully ignorant.

See, ( and this is where my preaching ends - you have all the other forums to explore and ask if you want and I'll be happy to pickup where we left off in the appropriate forum ) God says provocative things like this as a wake up call. No one likes to be called a fool, or ignorant. So they search out ways to remedy this and hopefully, come to God. I can help if you want but I will not force it on you - you can e-mail or PM me any time....or not, that's your choice.

Understand full well that I don't hate you (I know you never said that ) and I don't think you are stupid - but you are deceived and I am genuinely concerned for your soul. One day when we all will bow down as proclaim that Jesus is King, I hope you are there doing it because you want to and not because you have to ( we all will do this, whether you want to admit it or not ).

Anyway, 'nuff said - discussion closed unless you wish to seek out God - and I and many others will be pleased to assist you.

In His service,

Bob

[Guest arkon]

Amen Bob.

.... I know that sometimes I dont come over the way I should, but I want you to understand that everything Bob just spoke to you is the truth. Im not here to 'win a debate'. Someone had to help me once. I dont know if you can imagine me believing as you do, but not very long ago, I did. I absolutely could not get passed the flood. There was no way I could have except God showed it. It was when I started to read and find out "what does God have to say about history, dinosaurs, and the age of the earth" , that I started to see things happening that were not coincodence. The was the battle for my mind and soul. God cut the enemy off at the heart and saved me.

Thats all Im about ..... all of this...thats what its for..... if you dont feel comfortable in the board, then by all means, use the PM. If you want help, or have a question...feel free.

You already have more prayer than you suspect....but how much better is it to go humbly to Jesus and pray for yourself. Make a request in the prayer forum when your ready.

Edited May 23, 2004 by arkon