FighterforJC Posted July 11, 2008 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/25/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 It just makes me wonder, I know that one's stand on the end times does not determine one's eternal destination. But why is the church so divided when it comes to eschatology? I can understand how one denomination will differ from another when it comes to things like what type of worship music should be played or how one should dress up for Sunday, but why are we so divided regarding something as huge and important as eschatology? Is it God's intention? Aren't we all led by the same Spirit? It is certainly not God's intention for us to be so busy parsing out what might happen at the end of time that we have neither the energy or the courage to spread the gospel. Let me ask this: if our position on eschatology doesn't determine our eternal destination, why is it "huge and important?" The short answer is, it is not. I submit that endlessly debating eschatology is in part an avoidance behavior that wastes time, God's time. Only one thing determines our eternal destination. Does that mean that everything else is not important? I think our Lord's return IS huge and important. The book of Revelation promises a reward for those who learn and understand the book. I doubt that it wastes "God's time." I don't think that spreading the Gospel and trying to understand the end times are mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atonement Posted July 11, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) It just makes me wonder, I know that one's stand on the end times does not determine one's eternal destination. But why is the church so divided when it comes to eschatology? I can understand how one denomination will differ from another when it comes to things like what type of worship music should be played or how one should dress up for Sunday, but why are we so divided regarding something as huge and important as eschatology? Is it God's intention? Aren't we all led by the same Spirit? It is certainly not God's intention for us to be so busy parsing out what might happen at the end of time that we have neither the energy or the courage to spread the gospel. Let me ask this: if our position on eschatology doesn't determine our eternal destination, why is it "huge and important?" The short answer is, it is not. I submit that endlessly debating eschatology is in part an avoidance behavior that wastes time, God's time. Only one thing determines our eternal destination. Does that mean that everything else is not important? I think our Lord's return IS huge and important. The book of Revelation promises a reward for those who learn and understand the book. I doubt that it wastes "God's time." I don't think that spreading the Gospel and trying to understand the end times are mutually exclusive. 3/4 of the New Testament is Bible Prophecy about the end times and over 1/2 of the OT is Bible prophecy about Christ first coming and the end times. So this is a very important subject matter. But I think Christians need to be more alert in how they respond to people. I agree, I don't believe it was or is a waste of God's time. Edited July 11, 2008 by Atonement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atonement Posted July 11, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2008 It just makes me wonder, I know that one's stand on the end times does not determine one's eternal destination. But why is the church so divided when it comes to eschatology? I can understand how one denomination will differ from another when it comes to things like what type of worship music should be played or how one should dress up for Sunday, but why are we so divided regarding something as huge and important as eschatology? Is it God's intention? Aren't we all led by the same Spirit? It is certainly not God's intention for us to be so busy parsing out what might happen at the end of time that we have neither the energy or the courage to spread the gospel. Let me ask this: if our position on eschatology doesn't determine our eternal destination, why is it "huge and important?" The short answer is, it is not. I submit that endlessly debating eschatology is in part an avoidance behavior that wastes time, God's time. Only one thing determines our eternal destination. Does that mean that everything else is not important? I think our Lord's return IS huge and important. The book of Revelation promises a reward for those who learn and understand the book. I doubt that it wastes "God's time." I don't think that spreading the Gospel and trying to understand the end times are mutually exclusive. 3/4 of the New Testament is Bible Prophecy about the end times and over 1/2 of the OT is Bible prophecy about Christ first coming and the end times. So this is a very important subject matter. But I think Christians need to be more alert in how they respond to people. I agree, I don't believe it was or is a waste of God's time. Check your figures. The percentage of prophecy devoted to the end of time is much lower (Less than 5%). The epistles, which make up most of the New Testament deal with task theology or answering immediate questions which arose during the early days of the church. It is this sort of unfounded claim, a lack of knowledge of the subject matter, that leads to such wild speculation such as pre-trib/rapture. I agree that knowledge of the book of Revelation is important, but no more so than any other book of the Bible. We will agree to disagree. I will also ask that you recheck your figures and then check them again and afterwards check them one last time. You just proved your Bibical knowledge to me.. All it takes is time and man will hurt themselves... I'm sorry but it was not a trap to set yourself in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atonement Posted July 12, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2008 (edited) To elaborate.. 1) The coming of the Lord is a truth of such importance that it is mentioned 318 times in the 260 chapters of the NT (on an average, once every 25 verses). 2) The only subject mentioned more frequently than the second coming is the subject of salvation 3) Paul mentioned the communion ordinance only twice in his 13 epistles and baptism only 13 times, but he mentions the return of our Lord 50 times 4) Here are the books on prophecy Genesis Joshua and Judges 1 & 2 Kings Isaiah Jeremiah Daniel Ezekiel Amos Obadiah Jonah Zechariah Haggai Malachi Matthew Mark Luke John 1 & 2 Thessalonians Romans Jude Revelation Edited July 12, 2008 by Atonement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atonement Posted July 12, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2008 (edited) Good, you know your trivia. But, just because a subject is mentioned, does not indicate it is there in the text for the purpose you want to use it for. The disconnect is between the fact that something is mentioned and the context in which it is set. A text never means something to us that it never meant to its original audience. If you don't anchor the text to the author's original intention and to the original audience's understanding, then you can use the text to support anything. My favorite is the preacher who taught that it was a sin for a woman to wear her hair in a bun because the Bible says, "Top knot go down." Again, read your facts please. Thanks for your opinion, it means a lot to me, but even if I was off by a 1,000 prophecies let's say.. That's still over 9,000 prophecies in the Bible and still over a 1/3 of the Bible would be Bible prophecy. There are 10,285 prophecies in the Bible so either way.. Facts are facts and opinions are opinions.. Unless you can some how prove facts wrong.. Then I'm all ears.. It is virtually impossible for anyone to make 10 straight predictions, 2000 years into the future would you agree with this statement? There is only one chance in 8 x 10 to the 63rd power, or 80 with 63 zeros after it that such a thing could be done. If such a set of predictions existed, it would have to be the Word of God right? So let's prove it, 1) The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again after a long time and at a time the Bible calls the "latter days"-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3; Ezek 38:8. Against what appeared to be impossible odds, this prophecy has been fulfilled. It happened as predicted on May 14, 1948 after about 2500 years. That’s 1 out of 1 2) Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. 3) Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations"-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3. 4) Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 4 out of 4. 5) There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. Incredibly, this prophecy was written in the days of spears and arrows, yet today it is true. That’s 5 out of 5. 6) The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This seemingly impossible prophecy was written when there was no printing press or television, but today it is true. That's 6 out of 6. 7) In the "latter days," when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 7 out of 7. 8) There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. That’s 8 out of 8. 9) There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is an exact description of the European Union today (the EU), which has already adopted the one-currency system for many of their member nations Dan 2:44. That’s 9 out of 9 10) The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 10 out of 10. And to think that is just about Israel.. This does not include all the prophecy about Christ's first arrival, His 2nd arrival, the rebuilding of the third temple, the Wrath of God etc. Surley it's a remarkable discussion and worth taking note. Good luck my friend God Bless you Edited July 12, 2008 by Atonement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillennialSaint Posted July 12, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/19/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2008 Personally, I'm a pre-trib rapture kind of guy. Why? I never intended for this thread to turn into a debate, but to answer your question, my small brain understands the pre-trib view and IMHO is consistent with God's character as revealed to us in the Bible. Well, I'm a post-trib man myself. I see the "catching up in the clouds" as the fulfillment of Matt. 24: 31. But I don't have any problem with those who hold a pre-trib view. If you're pre-mil, you my bro. Peace & Health, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 12, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted July 12, 2008 It just makes me wonder, I know that one's stand on the end times does not determine one's eternal destination. But why is the church so divided when it comes to eschatology? I can understand how one denomination will differ from another when it comes to things like what type of worship music should be played or how one should dress up for Sunday, but why are we so divided regarding something as huge and important as eschatology? Is it God's intention? Aren't we all led by the same Spirit? My opinion is that we are divided because we are indeed speaking about a complex mysterious topic. The bible when it speaks of this area is often using dreams and visions. So how are the dreams and visions of John or those in the book of Daniel to be seen by us today? I think it often comes down to possibly trying to see things we are not meant to see. I would say however that we have a direct passage from Christ Himself about what will happen, and what will be the signs of the End, and outside of that to me it is pretty dicey. To me these versus from Christ would trump any other interpretation which is contrary or may seem contrary to those versus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atonement Posted July 12, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2008 (edited) The problem is, you are arguing retroactively. The causal link between the events cited and the passages used as evidence of fulfillment is nonexistant. And no, you don't get to use the old "The Holy Spirit tells me.." cliche. For each one of the events cited, one can point to an event much closer in time from the writing of the prophecy as the fulfillment. What is the objective contextual point of control for supposing that fulfillment is thousands of years in the future? The answer is, there is none. It's poor scholarship based on wishful thinking, a lack of historical knowledge and selective interpretation which ignores inconvenient truth. And, by the way, there is no "third temple" prophecy. To suggest that the temple must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice reinstituted is to nullify everything Christ did for us at Calvary. That's the Galatian heresy repackaged. Read Hebrews 10:11-18. Wow.. Another opinion based on what? What knowledge can you bring to this discussion? To suggest that the temple must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice reinstituted is to nullify everything Christ did for us at Calvary And if you know anything about Jewish history, they did not accept Christ as their Savior, nor do they today, yes, some have been converted to Christianity, but the majority of the Jews deny Christ as their Messiah, that is simple Biblical knowledge.. Thus this is why there will be a Great Tribulation period in the land of Israel. How long have you been studding prophecy? Not long enough we can see You have not studied Daniel have you? You might have read it. But forgot to study it. There will be a third temple built and animal sacrifice will be a implemented. Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary (temple) and the host to be trodden under foot? Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary (temple) of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. What is this abomination of desolation? The phrase abomination of desolation refers to Matthew 24:15: So when you see standing in the holy place (the third temple) 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand. This Scripture is referring to Daniel 9:27, He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. You want to know a little history? Alright here is some history.. In 167 B.C., a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation described above had occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future another abomination of desolation would occur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. As I stated before, give a man enough time and they dig themselves into a hole. I see your Biblical knowledge needs improvement before you try to rebuttal my position. I'll run circles around you.. You know very little about prophecy and I see why it's not that important to you.. Edited July 12, 2008 by Atonement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atonement Posted July 15, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2008 The problem is, you are arguing retroactively. The causal link between the events cited and the passages used as evidence of fulfillment is nonexistant. And no, you don't get to use the old "The Holy Spirit tells me.." cliche. For each one of the events cited, one can point to an event much closer in time from the writing of the prophecy as the fulfillment. What is the objective contextual point of control for supposing that fulfillment is thousands of years in the future? The answer is, there is none. It's poor scholarship based on wishful thinking, a lack of historical knowledge and selective interpretation which ignores inconvenient truth. And, by the way, there is no "third temple" prophecy. To suggest that the temple must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice reinstituted is to nullify everything Christ did for us at Calvary. That's the Galatian heresy repackaged. Read Hebrews 10:11-18. Wow.. Another opinion based on what? What knowledge can you bring to this discussion? To suggest that the temple must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice reinstituted is to nullify everything Christ did for us at Calvary And if you know anything about Jewish history, they did not accept Christ as their Savior, nor do they today, yes, some have been converted to Christianity, but the majority of the Jews deny Christ as their Messiah, that is simple Biblical knowledge.. Thus this is why there will be a Great Tribulation period in the land of Israel. How long have you been studding prophecy? Not long enough we can see You have not studied Daniel have you? You might have read it. But forgot to study it. There will be a third temple built and animal sacrifice will be a implemented. Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary (temple) and the host to be trodden under foot? Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary (temple) of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. What is this abomination of desolation? The phrase abomination of desolation refers to Matthew 24:15: So when you see standing in the holy place (the third temple) 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand. This Scripture is referring to Daniel 9:27, He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. You want to know a little history? Alright here is some history.. In 167 B.C., a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation described above had occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future another abomination of desolation would occur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. As I stated before, give a man enough time and they dig themselves into a hole. I see your Biblical knowledge needs improvement before you try to rebuttal my position. I'll run circles around you.. You know very little about prophecy and I see why it's not that important to you.. ...none of which answers the question, what is the objective contextual point of control for supposing that Daniel (or any other prophet, for that matter) is speaking of matters that will not be fulfilled for millenia, instead of decades? There is no basis for that supposition and you are still arguing retroactively. All of which serves to illustrate and answer the OP's question as to why we're divided on eschatology; speaking for myself, I refuse to accept fuzzy, illogical thinking as a valid technique for defining doctrine. Agreed.. It's only fuzzy to you and your position. I, like you, also dislike fuzzy, illogical, barnyard, backdoor, harebrained, imbecilic, uninformed, asinine, nonsensical, obtuse thinking to prophecy (and any other words you would like to add to it). Now you think Daniel will be fulfilled during the millennia, LOL.. My on My.. You have A LOT of studding to do before you come here and expect anyone who studies prophecy to accept your view. Plain and Simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resting in Christ Posted July 15, 2008 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2008 The problem is, you are arguing retroactively. The causal link between the events cited and the passages used as evidence of fulfillment is nonexistant. And no, you don't get to use the old "The Holy Spirit tells me.." cliche. For each one of the events cited, one can point to an event much closer in time from the writing of the prophecy as the fulfillment. What is the objective contextual point of control for supposing that fulfillment is thousands of years in the future? The answer is, there is none. It's poor scholarship based on wishful thinking, a lack of historical knowledge and selective interpretation which ignores inconvenient truth. And, by the way, there is no "third temple" prophecy. To suggest that the temple must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice reinstituted is to nullify everything Christ did for us at Calvary. That's the Galatian heresy repackaged. Read Hebrews 10:11-18. Wow.. Another opinion based on what? What knowledge can you bring to this discussion? To suggest that the temple must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice reinstituted is to nullify everything Christ did for us at Calvary And if you know anything about Jewish history, they did not accept Christ as their Savior, nor do they today, yes, some have been converted to Christianity, but the majority of the Jews deny Christ as their Messiah, that is simple Biblical knowledge.. Thus this is why there will be a Great Tribulation period in the land of Israel. How long have you been studding prophecy? Not long enough we can see You have not studied Daniel have you? You might have read it. But forgot to study it. There will be a third temple built and animal sacrifice will be a implemented. Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary (temple) and the host to be trodden under foot? Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary (temple) of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. What is this abomination of desolation? The phrase abomination of desolation refers to Matthew 24:15: So when you see standing in the holy place (the third temple) 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand. This Scripture is referring to Daniel 9:27, He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. You want to know a little history? Alright here is some history.. In 167 B.C., a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation described above had occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future another abomination of desolation would occur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. As I stated before, give a man enough time and they dig themselves into a hole. I see your Biblical knowledge needs improvement before you try to rebuttal my position. I'll run circles around you.. You know very little about prophecy and I see why it's not that important to you.. ...none of which answers the question, what is the objective contextual point of control for supposing that Daniel (or any other prophet, for that matter) is speaking of matters that will not be fulfilled for millenia, instead of decades? There is no basis for that supposition and you are still arguing retroactively. All of which serves to illustrate and answer the OP's question as to why we're divided on eschatology; speaking for myself, I refuse to accept fuzzy, illogical thinking as a valid technique for defining doctrine. Agreed.. It's only fuzzy to you and your position. I, like you, also dislike fuzzy, illogical, barnyard, backdoor, harebrained, imbecilic, uninformed, asinine, nonsensical, obtuse thinking to prophecy (and any other words you would like to add to it). Now you think Daniel will be fulfilled during the millennia, LOL.. My on My.. You have A LOT of studding to do before you come here and expect anyone who studies prophecy to accept your view. Plain and Simple WOW ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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