JustinM Posted July 18, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted July 18, 2008 The moment God loses faith in mankind, will be the moment He returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jehovah Nissi Posted July 18, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 285 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/04/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1981 Share Posted July 18, 2008 I agree with EricH. God really does not have "faith" in us. What He does have is unconditional love for us. We must remember that God knew us before the foundations of the earth. this took faith Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. God has seen the beginning from the end and everything in between. He simply does not need faith. May the Lord richly bless you, H-Dad How can God have unconditional love twards us without faith (Galatians 5:6, 1 John 4:8 - faith working through God). Everything you said about God seeing the end from the begining (I think is what you ment)...that takes nothing but faith (Heb. 11:1 - you quoted it)...that's what faith is! He created us in His image and likness right? And if it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb. 11:6)...then faith must be a pretty big part of God. Please, back your theories up with scripture. The ones you gave actually proved your theory wrong...And back them up with scripture especially when you are giving someong an answer to their question. I say this in Love...the Word of God must be rightly divided. I think you have misunderstood the original question. It was not addressed to our faith in God, but if God had faith in us If you look at my post closely, I was talking about God's faith and how it is pretty evident in scripture that God has faith...I put an emphisis on God's faith in general because it was said that "God simply does not need faith" which is unscriptural. As far as my answer to the OP's question...I allready gave it earlier. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted July 18, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2008 I agree with EricH. God really does not have "faith" in us. What He does have is unconditional love for us. We must remember that God knew us before the foundations of the earth. this took faith Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. God has seen the beginning from the end and everything in between. He simply does not need faith. May the Lord richly bless you, H-Dad How can God have unconditional love twards us without faith (Galatians 5:6, 1 John 4:8 - faith working through God). Everything you said about God seeing the end from the begining (I think is what you ment)...that takes nothing but faith (Heb. 11:1 - you quoted it)...that's what faith is! He created us in His image and likness right? And if it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb. 11:6)...then faith must be a pretty big part of God. Please, back your theories up with scripture. The ones you gave actually proved your theory wrong...And back them up with scripture especially when you are giving someong an answer to their question. I say this in Love...the Word of God must be rightly divided. I think you have misunderstood the original question. It was not addressed to our faith in God, but if God had faith in us If you look at my post closely, I was talking about God's faith and how it is pretty evident in scripture that God has faith...I put an emphisis on God's faith in general because it was said that "God simply does not need faith" which is unscriptural. As far as my answer to the OP's question...I allready gave it earlier. J As I look at the verses you supplied, they don't seem to me to address God's having faith in us, but us having faith in God. For example, Galatians 5:6 says: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision accomplishes anything; what matters is faith working through love. Galatians 5:6 HCSB In this passage Paul says that our being circumcised or not circumcised is not what accomplishes anything in God's sight, it is our faith in Christ which produces love that has value in God's sight. This passage does not speak to the idea that God has faith in what we do. It speaks to the necessity of us having faith in God. 1 John 4:8 says this: The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8 HCSB This does not really address faith at all. It speaks of the need for us to love because God dwells in us and His very nature is love. In fact there is no passage in scripture that says God has faith in anything (or that faith is an attribute He possesses - especially His having faith in humans). He does not need to. He is the only appropriate object of faith. All of the passages you provided speak of our need to have faith in God. So the facts are not lining up for me the same way they are for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah Joel Posted July 18, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2008 (edited) Hello Tangent Your question can be answered ini Job 15:14-16. God most assuredly puts no trust/faith in man. Job 15:14-16: "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which driniketh iniquity like water? God is the one that gives us the ability not only to believe on him, but to suffer for his names sake (Phil 1:29) So in that God is the one that gives the ability to believe on him, he would put no confidence in man whom he gave the ability to believe on him in the first place. Jeremiah Joel Edited July 18, 2008 by Jeremiah Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jehovah Nissi Posted July 19, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 285 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/04/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1981 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Hello Tangent Your question can be answered ini Job 15:14-16. God most assuredly puts no trust/faith in man. Job 15:14-16: "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which driniketh iniquity like water? God is the one that gives us the ability not only to believe on him, but to suffer for his names sake (Phil 1:29) So in that God is the one that gives the ability to believe on him, he would put no confidence in man whom he gave the ability to believe on him in the first place. Jeremiah Joel Then how do you explain 1 Thessalonians 2:4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jehovah Nissi Posted July 19, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 285 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/04/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1981 Share Posted July 19, 2008 In fact there is no passage in scripture that says God has faith in anything (or that faith is an attribute He possesses - especially His having faith in humans). He does not need to. Than please explain 1 Thessalonians 2:4. Does not God give us a certain amount of stewardship/trust in what is rightfully His? Isn't that putting faith in us? Now granted, God is wise...He tests us to make sure we are being good stewards (kind of like when God tested Abraham by telling him to offer his son as a sacrifice to see if He could trust him)...but always the more, He does trust us. If you say "I trust this person," would that be the same as saying "I have faith in this person?" J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Honolulu-Dad Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 I agree with EricH. God really does not have "faith" in us. What He does have is unconditional love for us. We must remember that God knew us before the foundations of the earth. this took faith Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. God has seen the beginning from the end and everything in between. He simply does not need faith. May the Lord richly bless you, H-Dad How can God have unconditional love twards us without faith (Galatians 5:6, 1 John 4:8 - faith working through God). Everything you said about God seeing the end from the begining (I think is what you ment)...that takes nothing but faith (Heb. 11:1 - you quoted it)...that's what faith is! He created us in His image and likness right? And if it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb. 11:6)...then faith must be a pretty big part of God. Please, back your theories up with scripture. The ones you gave actually proved your theory wrong...And back them up with scripture especially when you are giving someong an answer to their question. I say this in Love...the Word of God must be rightly divided. Nissi, First of all I have offered no theories. I simply agreed with the position of someone else. I did not need faith the last time I looked in the mirrior in order to believe that is what I look like. What does God creating man in His image and likeness have to do with faith??? In fact, I have never needed faith to believe what I could "see". Faith, by it's very definition, is about those things we can not see. God could see the end from the beginning, thus, He had foreknowledge and, therefore, had no need for faith. It does not require faith to believe what you can clearly see. "Faith is ... the evidence of things not seen." When God created the Heavens and the Earth, He did not speak hoping that the nothingness (created - bara - brought out of nothing) would comply and go along with the plan. No, He spoke with authority and the knowledge that whatever He spoke would come to pass. Please - show me one verse of scripture that says God has "faith" in anything and we will begin an indepth look from there. You know, as I was sitting here thinking about my response to you, I realize that if God were to have "faith" in mankind it would be the faith that we will all sin and fall short of His glory and that everyone of us will need a Savior. Therefore, call it faith! Call it foreknowledge! Either way, Praise the Lord for the shedding of His Holy blood. Aloha, H-Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted July 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2008 In fact there is no passage in scripture that says God has faith in anything (or that faith is an attribute He possesses - especially His having faith in humans). He does not need to. Than please explain 1 Thessalonians 2:4. Does not God give us a certain amount of stewardship/trust in what is rightfully His? Isn't that putting faith in us? Now granted, God is wise...He tests us to make sure we are being good stewards (kind of like when God tested Abraham by telling him to offer his son as a sacrifice to see if He could trust him)...but always the more, He does trust us. If you say "I trust this person," would that be the same as saying "I have faith in this person?" J The passage (1 Thess 2:4) does not say God trusts us. It says He tests us. In fact, literally it says, "He examines our hearts": Instead, just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please men, but rather God, who examines our hearts. 1 Thess 2:4 HCSB This is not a statement about God placing faith in us. it is a statement about His ability to see our hearts. It is not the same as saying, "I have faith in you" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah Joel Posted July 25, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2008 I just have a few moments to write. I did not notice any response to my post for a day or so, and have not been on line for the last few days. I shall try to respond this weekend. JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted July 25, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2008 I have been a fan of Rob Bell's for a while now, but recently realized how much controversy there was surrounding him. So I've decided to do research on what all the controversy is about and most of it is clearly taking what he has said out of context. But... I found this on youtube - For those who don't want to take the 10 minutes to watch it, basically he takes a clip from one of Rob Bell's short films, titled Dust. In this short Rob Bell talks about how Peter and the other desciples see Jesus walking on water, and Peter, who thinks he's a ghost says "Lord! Is it you?" And Jesus says that it is. So Peter wants to walk on the water too. Bell says that a disciple wanted nothing more than to be like his Rabbi, and Peter is no different. Peter wants to walk on water just like his Rabbi. So Peter gets out of the boat, walks a few steps, and sinks. Bell says "who does peter lose faith in? Christ? Jesus didn't sink. Peter lost faith in peter." So the point Rob Bell is making is that Jesus has faith in US, to be like him. This has meant a great deal to me, knowing that Christ sees more in me than just a pile of filth. That there IS more to me than just a pile of filth. So this pastor has an argument against what Rob Bell is saying. He's going so far as to call Bell a false teacher! He's saying that to say Christ having faith in us is blasphemous (essentially.) He mentioned something in a reply to someone about depravity. I did some research on depravity and it seems to stem from a Wesleyan view of theology. My understanding of total depravity after my research is this - Man is inherently sinful, and wicked. We aren't necessarily as wicked as we can be, but we aren't by any stretch good. That there are a few kinds of grace. Perennial grace is a kind of grace that allows us to go to God. A kind of pre-grace grace that allows us to connect to God despite our sin (please correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't research this stuff until tonight.) Perennial grace leads the way to salvation if we so choose. So the question is then... with a wesleyan doctrine including total depravity, does that mean God doesn't have faith in us? All he sees is a pile of filth? This scares me a lot! I know I need God, and I know I'm nothing without him but... is there really nothing God likes about me? Why did he make me if I'm so useless? And then what does this say about free will? If I'm so bad, then I can't force myself to do good (which is also apart of the depravity theology according to what I read.) But even after grace has come, any good work comes from God, and by no choice of my own because there is no good in me. And then what does that say about people who do good who have never accepted Christ as their savior? Like Ghandi for instance. He changed an entire culture for the better. I've also heard of a woman recently who pushed a child out of the way of a car, only to be hit by it herself. She died. According to the article, I believe she was Mormon. Was that not a good act? I'm not saying she goes to heaven but... that seems like a conscious choice to do good. So I'm confused here, and scared of the answer, but I really need some feedback. Please help guys thanks in advance I think the best answer is that God knows us and has chosen to love us unconditionally. He does not need to have "faith" in us. He knows us completely A very excellent answer, Eric! Since faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," God would not need to employ faith as he knows all and sees all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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