Jeremiah Joel

If God did not want man to sin then he would not have given a law to man. Most all that I have talked to believe that God knows everything that will take place. This means then that he knew that Adam and Eve would fall by him giving a law. He also knew that if he did not give the law that they would not have fallen. So then God gave man the law, that he (God ) knew that he could not keep... thus putting man in sin by that law... or in other words making man to sin. Because the scripture says that where no law is there is no transgression. So then were is the free will in this?... there is none. God knew what man would do if he gave them the law, and what would happen if he did not give them the law. God is the one that put man into sin by the law. God is the one that also takes sin away, simply by not imputing sin through a law. Jeremiah

. Hi Kopane Mabasa. Not true. Hell is described in the Scriptures as "eternal punishment." There is nothing written in the Scriptures saying Satan or any one else there are burnt to ashes and the fires of Hell finally burning out? The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is "ETERNAL" in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46). Haz. Hello Haz There is also another fire, that was said would not be quenched also. It was the fire that destroyed Jerusalem: Jer 17:27But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. We can also find the same statement in Ez 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. We know that those fires that did burn did go out, though it was said that the fire will not be quenched. The fire did the destruction that it was intended for and went out. The fire was not to be quenched until the destruction that it was to do was fulfilled. Hell fire is also that type of place.. a place for the destruction of both the body and soul in hell. The saints of God are given eternal life... not the wicked... they are destroyed. Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. How could the wicked be ashes under the souls of our feet if they burn forever?..... that would be impossible. We can find hell fire mentioned in Mal 4:1-3, and the wicked being ashes under the souls of our feet. Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up (destroyed body and soul), saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. God sent punishment to a nation whose angry did tear perpetually (did not stop). We can find that in Amos 1:11 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away [the punishment] thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever: Man is the cruel one. God is not. If God is angry, and will not turn away punishment to a nation whose anger and wrath had no end (AM 1:11)... Then God's nature and caricature does the same very thing??? God is merciful. He created the wicked for the day of evil for their intended purpose, then to be destroyed. Jeremiah

I do see a great falling away. A falling from the foundational principles of Heb 6:1-2. The thoughts on these principles in Heb 6:1-2 is the foundation of our faith..... which is all over the place, just depends on who you are talking to. On some points we may agree and some not. These principles is only the basement of Christian faith, to take us on unto perfection in Christ. If we were to take the doctrine of baptisms as an example; I would say I have heard about 5 or so basic teachings on baptism... all totally diverse one from another if really examined. I do not what this thread to get into a talk of baptism.. that is not what this tread is about. Just using it as a example on how scattered people are on just that one teaching. I see falling away from the truth of the teaching of the foundational principles. To hear the voice: "this is the way walk in it". Jeremiah

Hello to all I hope that all my post were clear. I do not intend to say that I am anything of myself. Being free from sin is of course the work of God. As I have said before. Being free from sin does not mean that we are not tempted. Christ (as BB stated) was tempted in all points like we are. Though Christ was tempted in all point like we are, he was never in sin. We on the other hand were born in sin.... BUT we have been born again, to walk in newness of life. I know that we have this flesh wherein dwells no good thing (Christ did also). Temptations come and go, things happen in life which we all battle through. God through Christ gives us the victory. We understand that we all have things that are particular to us as individuals.... sin that is particular to us that we fight against based on how things are with our flesh. We do not fight against those things with carnal weapons, but spiritual weapons. It speaks in I Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin (Rm 7:1-23), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. This is the flesh that we fight against daily. This does not mean though that we can not be free from sin. That is not why John wrote these things. We can find this out by reading the next verse in I Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. ( Rm 7:24-25 & Rm 8:1-4) And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Ja 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. So then, this is not about anyone being better than anyone else. This is a message about what Christ came to do. To bring forth to people how to believe in Christ, that sin is taken out of the way. It is truely about walking in newness of life. You do not have to live with sin any longer. You do not have to believe the lie that you are no good, that you can never be free from your sin. I preach to you that you through Christ can be free. "You shalll know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". Peace in the truth of the gospel of Christ. Jeremiah

To all I hope that the last post that I made was clear. The talk of free from sin is not about us, or our own power. We will always fail trying under our own power to be free from sin (law of thou shalt not). We simply speak here about the work of Christ and what Christ came to do. It is the work of the Holy Ghost that takes sin away. Again: it is not only about a man 2,000 or so years ago, called the Christ. It is now Christ also in you the hope of glory. The man Christ Jesus had a body just like we do...... yet without sin. It was not by his flesh that he was without sin. It was the work of the God. Jeremiah

Hello JCISGD & all: The answer to you regarding if I disagree with the statement of faith; saying that you cannot be without sin in this life would be true. To those on this thread that may have some raised eyebrows at this time... Let me clarify something. There is the law of sin and death. The law makes us know what sin is. Without the law there is no transgression (sin). Rm 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. It is by the law that we know what sin is. It is the law that brings us to Christ. It may seem strange in a way that the law brings forth sin Rm 7:9-10 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. And it is the law that is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ In Gal 3:21-25 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. It is not by following the law of thou shalt not. If that were the case the there is absolutely no reason for Christ to have come in the first place. I know what sin is by the law. But there is another law that I seek God for..... which is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. There are things that are given in Christ that takes away sin...things that we are to do that is all acts of faith. If God where to revel something to me that is sin, I turn to him in prayer and faith to take it away..... and he revels to me what he would have me to do by faith. Most people will go to Rm 7:1-23 and use this reference to say: "see we cannot be without sin". But they fail the grace of God by not reading the rest of what Paul was saying...thereby staying in sin. Paul went on to say this in Rm 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Then also in Rm 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Why stop at Rm 7:23 and live in sin and death.... read the rest. We are: "free from the law of sin and death."[ Not free to continue in sin..... but totally free from sin. You need to ask yourself this question. If we cannot be without sin, then what sin(s) can we do? If you preach against being a homosexual; that it is sin.... then what about your sin(s). I am not throwing stones here...just making a point. If that is what we do, then we are nothing more than hypocrites. We preach against certain sin or sins..... yet we ourselves have our own sin(s) that we continue to live in. You cannot preach against homosexuality that it is sin and must stop; yet continue to live in your own sins. Remember it is not by the law of thou shalt not..... look at the religious people in the day of Christ, we can see that that is not how righteousness comes!! There is a law of faith that brings forth rigthoeusness. A law(s) given by God. Jeremiah

Hi Jeremiah, i agree fully with the first sentence, but am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the Westminister Confession, that we cannot be perfect reguardless of the Grace/Work of God in our lives? I believe that the work of grace takes us out of sin completely. That the work of grace makes us perfect. I preach that God's work stops sin in our lives. If there be anything within me that is sin, that I am unaware of, God will revel it and take it out of me completely. So then we walk perfect by the grace of God, and on in perfection. Jesus of Nazareth was known as the Christ (anointed one) because of the obvious work of God. Now it is to be Christ in us the hope of glory! The scriptures say this in I Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. How did Christ walk? It says this in I Pet 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: So then it is not just about a man 2,000 or so years ago called the Christ. It is now Christ is us! To be perfect by the work of the grace of God, and faith (works) in that grace. As the scripture also says in Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:. And then of course in James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? There are things within the Word of God that speak to the elect, that tell them what they must do...Not the law of sin and death...But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. I hope that that answers your question. Jeremiah

The work of righteousness is of course the work of God. We are to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. Christ came to bless us in turning away everyone of you from his iniquity (Ac 3:26). It is the work of God that sin is taken out of our lives. It is and can only be the work of God. The law came which put us in sin, for without the law is no transgression. We know sin by the law, and the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. All the work of God. If a person belives that they cannot be without sin, most likely they have heard that from a preacher. What then is the sin of the preacher that preaches that?...... there can be some very vile sins in this world!! It is not just about thoughts... but actual sin. Again this freedom from sin is the work of God. It is not about being better than anyone, or anything like that. It is just the work of God. It is what Christ came to do, us taking on the image of Christ..... Christ in us the hope of glory. Jeremiah

I think if someone as Paul was preaching today,he would receive much opposition from many churches. Just as He did way back when. Yes Agua he would. He would lay out what the Lord requires of us in this time. Most churches will say "we agree to disagree... lets just all get along." Paul in I Cor 1:10 spoke of us all being perfectly joined together, having the same mind, and the same judgement. Doctrine is all over the place in what is called christianity. I would not say to believe any person that comes along, just because he seems to know what he is speaking. Many times though I've seen scriptures being brought forth that are pretty much ignored, simply because it does not fit in with a organizations doctrine. I have seen things as you also and others have seen, when scriputre is broght forth that makes a clear statement on a subject disrgarded; because it does not fit a particular thinking of the scriptures as they have thought things to be. I do understand that we must rightly divide the Word of truth. That we need to look at scriptures in the light of other scriptures. But even within doing this things can still be ignored. Anyway, this is a good subject that has been brought up. Jeremiah

Truely a very interesting point that you brought up. How would Paul be received today if he were here. If he came with such clear thoughts on the scripture, would he be received? I would suspect that he would preach clearly how and what we are to believe. I do not think it would be very well received at all. Would he preach rapture or not, baptism is necessary or not,......ect. Would he be sure what truth is?... and would he preach with boldness, as in: "this is what truth is!" I do not think that he would be rude... just very confident of what is what...... so confident that it would almost seem like he is a bit arrogant. Very good thought. I have thought on these things of and on at times. Thanks for bringing up the thought. Jeremiah Joel

I do agree that there are many things that people can pick on that really do not matter. You had said that all we need is Jesus, which I also agree. Jesus is the Word of God, and that means doctrine. In Hebrews 6:1-2 is the foundation of christian doctrine, many of the topics that we address on this board. Yet the views of how we are to believe are scattered to say the least. There is the doctrine (not doctrines) of the resurrection (rapture), that we have been addressing here. Again it is the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead in Hebrews 6:1-2, not doctrines. I would not think much either, of little things that people can talk about that really do not matter. But when it comes to Hebrews 6:1-2 and the resurrection (rapture) it is extremely important. It is important; because a false doctrine of the resurrection of the dead overthrew the faith of some: II Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. The scripture is for no private interpretation, which does not mean that it is all how you interpret the scripture but rather that the scripture interprets itself, through men moved by the Holy Ghost. There can not be several interpretations of the resurrection (rapture), there can only be one that is correct, and the rest must be error. 2Pe 1:20-2 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. There is the voice of God that stands alone, and his sheep hear that voice and another they will not follow. Truth makes us free. The reality is, that with all the different beliefs regarding the foundation of Hebrews 6:1-2, only one belief within those various points of doctrine is correct, or in other words truth. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is all about words..."the Word". There again are the many points of thought regarding the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead (rapture):..... which one is truth? (Jesus) So it is true that JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD,...... And Jesus is the Word of God... it is all about word(s) ... or doctrine. And there must be, and are those that know his voice (doctrine). Jeremiah

This topic brings up an interesting point. The original post by ParanoidAndroid is some very good information, which I also have here at the house. Where is it that the doctrine that people believe to be true really comes from? The scriptures say this: II Pe 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" The scriptures interpret themselves, and with no mention of the term rapture in the scriptures I would think twice about the teaching of the rapture. I do understand where people get into the HEBREW and GREEK at this point to justify "rapture". Many do not know Hebrew or Greek. If it were a matter of Hebrew and Greek to really understand the things that God is saying...then that sounds more like the wisdom of the world rather then the simplicity of the gospel of Christ. I can understand looking up some of the meanings of words because of the old English and some other reasons. But is it really about Hebrew and Greek? The scripture speaks of two resurrections. That of the just and the unjust. I have seen a time chart that someone is using on a web site with three resurrections, and it appears that the "rapture" is seen as a resurrection; when the scriptures say there are only two. This is something that no one can get around. The first resurrection... then the thousand year reign, and then the second resurrection. I do know that over history that there have been people resurrected from the dead., but those situations are not about the resurrection as we are speaking. What is the importance about the resurrection? The problem with error about the resurrection is that within the early church, it over threw the faith of some. When people are looking for something to happen and it does not happen, it overthrows or destroys the faith of what they have looked to happen and it does not. Then what will they do as the tribulation is taking place? II Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Jeremiah

If it were not possible , I couldn't - wouldn't - be a Christain . How would one know Him without it ? "Churches" are not enough - they all teach what they want to promote themselves . Leaders are not enough - how did *they* know ? By another ? The Scriptures are not enough - they were written to others . I want to hear Him as the writers were able . I want a personal relationship with the Lord . He declares Himself to be the God of Abraham , Isaac , and Jacob - a personal God . That is want I want . The Scriptures state , "Today , if you hear His voice , do not harden your hearts ... " You can hear His voice . If He speaks Today , don't harden your hearts by thinking that He cannot speak . Interesting point that "New_Winieskin brought up. Many hear God in very different ways, and there were some great testimonies that people brought up. But when it comes to doctrine things are all over the board (no pun intended).There are many points in doctrine that people do not hear the same voice, yet all say it is God. Doctrine within regards to salvation, predestination resurrection ect., are all over the place. Yet the scripture does say as already mentioned: "my sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow", yet people are following another voice. If these doctrinal question are all over the place, is it that some or many are not hearing, or do not what to hear his voice. Do we reject things that are said to us ...... maybe because?????? I hope that this does not throw this thread of course, but rather stirs good communication regarding hear the voice of God; and what that means. I do not what this post to get off on the doctrinal questions that I have mentioned, but why is it that these sort of things are all over the place regarding to hearing God's voice. Jeremiah

Good question. I have a slight advantage in this. As I take the sermons home to up-load to a transmit site, so our web-master may upload the message to the church web site. But even then, everyone has the same ability to take a copy of the message home also. It does make you think though. Do we really want to know the message? If we are one's that easily forget things... then why not take the message home on CD to listen to again. Then again it makes a person think... do I really think this is a man of God hearing from God or not. If the answer is yes, then I would do everything in my ability, or power to get all that I can from what is preached. If the preacher is dry as if he is not really hearing anything from God, I would reevaluate what in the world I am doing at that church. Very good question to make you think. Jeremiah

Hello Everyone: If I may take sometime to make a few points on this subject. From what I have read, I see Ezekial33 as saying that he is without sin. If God where to reveal anything to him that he is doing that is sin, that God would give him the power to stop that also. As in his post #40: Please correct me on this Ezekial33 if I am incorrect. In Job 34:31-32 it speaks: "For has any said to God, 'I am guilty, but I will not offend any more.Teach me that which I don't see. If I have done iniquity, I will do it no more'? We are either delivered from sin or not. If we are dead to sin how can we live any longer therein? When a man is dead (actually dead), he does not get back up and live his life for a little while, then go back into death. Runninggator: You had said in your post #37 There is more to what John wrote though. It is not only I John 1:8 which is what you were speaking from. It is about 1 John 1:7-10 & 2:1. Which says: I John 18-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: The reason then that John wrote these things is that we sin not. Yes we have this body of sin and death. And understanding this I buffet my body (daily) to bring it into subjection. I would think that none of us, would think that a pedophile can continue in that sin. I would think that we would all agree that that sin must stop.... no more slip ups. I would also think that all of us would agree that a homosexual must stop that sin.... no more slip ups. It would be very hypocritical for us to say to these things mentioned (or any others) have to stop, and that we though would continue in our own sin(s). The situation though: is that under our own power we cannot stop from sin. It is ONLY by the power of the Holy Ghost that we can cease from sin. Yes I am free from sin.. the sins that are particular to my own life. If there be any other thing, I trust that God will revel this to me, and it also shall stop. This is not about being as a Pharisee... to look down on others because of their sin, and still living in our own. This is simple of what Christ came to do. It is about taking the law out of the way... nailing it to his cross. Where no law is there is no transgression. Jeremiah