Scientific Athiest

[artsylady]

SA: I guess you want to drop the abiogenesis topic. Is that because you know there's no evidence for it, yet you believe it? Isn't that exactly like faith?

[Bread_of_Life]

artsylady,

If I'd wished to drop the topic I wouldn't have made a very long post on exactly what we do when there is little evidence to differentiate between two or more theories.

I await your response to this post above.

[Shelby]

you are in my prayers SA.

[artsylady]

Now, back to abiogenesis. I wasn't there when it happened, and it has no left very many clues in the future for us to behold. There are also several theories on how it might have happened - and even if these theories prove feasible (that is, that they might have happened) - we'll never actually know which one really did happen, because there's no way of testing.

So the 'evidence' that abiogenesis happened is that we are here...? Is that it? And they did try testing. It didn't work.

[2bba]

delete

[artsylady]

Original question:

QUOTE 

Now, if He does exist, what exactly do you want Him to do to reveal Himself to you? What would make you believe? 

Well, a personal appearance would be nice, followed by a few miracles. Since he's an all powerful God, he should be able to convince me of his existence. I mean, lots of things that arn't all powerful have convinced me of their existence in the past.

Well, there was a reason why I asked if you were familiar with the accounts from the Bible, so that you might know how the God of the Bible operates. Have you heard many stories where he just makes himself known to someone who doesn't even beleive in Him or acknowledge His existance? I can only think of two out of hundreds - one was Belshazzar - successor to Nebuchadnezar, who saw the 'writing on the wall' . You've heard the phrase. Are you familiar with the story? Well, Belhshazzar didn't believe in God, but saw a miracle. The same night his kingdom fell and he died. Are you sure you want God to just show you a miracle? Paul, who was formerly Saul and one who slaughtered Christians, fell blind for awhile before he believed. Are you sure you want God to show you a miracle? Then again, the Pharoah during the time of Moses (okay, that's 3 then) was shown many miracles, yet didn't believe.

What kind of miracle would prove to you that God exists anyway? What if you found out you were miraculously cured of a disease? You'd have a scientific explanation for it! What if an angel came to you and told you God loved you? You'd later beleived you'd seen a hallucination! So please tell me what kind of miracle, specifically would make you believe.

And besides, even if God did provide you with the miracle of your choice, you must know that the God of the Bible doesn't operate that way anyway. He doesn't just go around showing people miracles if they don't believe in Him. Surely you can agree with this. You know that YOU have to take a step of faith toward Him! You might ask Him if He exists but you have to take a small step and do the asking. Would that be so difficult? What on earth would stop you from doing this??? I really want to know. I'm not going to let it slide by this time either. :suspect:

[Bread_of_Life]

So the 'evidence' that abiogenesis happened is that we are here...? Is that it? And they did try testing. It didn't work.

Firstly, this is not quite so. They recreated the conditions under which one theory of abiogenesis postulated it might have happened, and while they didn't get self-replictors, they did get a lot of amino acids - meaning that early seas were teaming with amino acids, which is certainly an advance in the field of abiogenesis.

Secondly, I didn't say that the evidence for abiogenesis is that we are here - however, that is evidence that life started at one point. What I was actually saying, in a roundabout sort of a way, is that abiogenesis was in my opinion by far the simplest theory to explain the appearance of life - since where we lack evidence to distinguish between theories, we must rely on probability and philosophical tools such as Occam's Razor.

What kind of miracle would prove to you that God exists anyway?

Why would it need a one off miracle? The table in front of me has done no miracles at all, I'm convinced that it exists.

The disciples wern't convinced by a one off miracle, they believed. Adam and Eve wern't convinced by a one off miracle, they walked with God in the garden, he was part of their everyday lives and everyday senses. They had no reason at all to doubt his existence.

So why can't God just reveal himself - not once vaguely through a late remission of a cancer, or a dream or vision - but actually in person, daily, appearing and disappearing, doing a few miracles, giving some advice etc. That's what he did for Adam and Eve, it's what he did for the disciples - that'd convince me - then I'd have no more reason to doubt his existence than I do this table, that's done no miracles at all.

He doesn't just go around showing people miracles if they don't believe in Him.

He does so work in this way, he did for the disciples, he did for some prophets, he did for Adam and Eve too. Why not now?

[VRSpock]

Secondly, I didn't say that the evidence for abiogenesis is that we are here - however, that is evidence that life started at one point. What I was actually saying, in a roundabout sort of a way, is that abiogenesis was in my opinion by far the simplest theory to explain the appearance of life - since where we lack evidence to distinguish between theories, we must rely on probability and philosophical tools such as Occam's Razor.

Remember the movie, Contact, that I mentioned in chat one day? Rent it sometime when you get a chance, if you're into Sci-Fi (I'm assuming you are because I've seen Asimov and other great authors in your sigs). It deals specifically with Occam's Razor in the story line.

"All things being equal, the simplest explanation is the most likely." However, all things are not equal. The whole of the universe is greater than the sum of its parts.

[Guest Humbled]

John 20:29

"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas shared your doubts. Jesus is patient and longsuffering and will receive your heartfelt questions with joy. He loves you dearly.

[artsylady]

QUOTE 

So the 'evidence' that abiogenesis happened is that we are here...? Is that it? And they did try testing. It didn't work. Quote

Firstly, this is not quite so. They recreated the conditions under which one theory of abiogenesis postulated it might have happened, and while they didn't get self-replictors, they did get a lot of amino acids - meaning that early seas were teaming with amino acids, which is certainly an advance in the field of abiogenesis.

I'll repost a thread on abiogenesis. Anyway, the created the building blocks for life, but no life happened, right? So why is abiogenesis, based on scientific EVIDENCE, more feasible than God creating life?

Surely, if they know how it happened, and we have all the materials needed to make it happen, the most brilliant minds on the earth should have been able to make it happen.

Secondly, I didn't say that the evidence for abiogenesis is that we are here - however, that is evidence that life started at one point.

No kidding. lol. Sorry you don't like my paraphrase, but I don't know why it doesn't suit you.

What I was actually saying, in a roundabout sort of a way, is that abiogenesis was in my opinion by far the simplest theory to explain the appearance of life - since where we lack evidence to distinguish between theories, we must rely on probability and philosophical tools such as Occam's Razor.

If it was so simple, scientists would be able to perform the creation of life.

What is Occam's Razor?

QUOTE 

What kind of miracle would prove to you that God exists anyway?

Why would it need a one off miracle? The table in front of me has done no miracles at all, I'm convinced that it exists.

Well, you can see the table. Don't compare apples to oranges now.

The disciples wern't convinced by a one off miracle, they believed. Adam and Eve wern't convinced by a one off miracle, they walked with God in the garden, he was part of their everyday lives and everyday senses. They had no reason at all to doubt his existence.

Adam and Eve talked with God. You're right. They were the first people in the Bible. How on earth would Adam and Eve have known anything about God unless God had chosen to make himself REAL? They had no fathers or mothers to tell them and they didn't have the word of God. Now, if God had not made himself real to Adam and Eve or anyone, how would anyone ever know about God?????

Jesus chose men to reveal himself to. They are the witnesses. Now if Jesus had just lived on earth and never done miracles or made himself real to anyone, HOW would anyone ever, future generations inclued, know about JESUS???? lol! this is funny!

Now, you're trying to compare yourself to Adam and Eve and the disciples, who were all 'firsts'. God revealed himself personally to them to pass along the info. And they did! All of the disciples DIED to continue this truth!!

Again, I thought you might have been familiar with the stories of the Bible and it seems you are, but are avoiding the real question! HOW OFTEN DOES THIS GOD MAKE HIMSELF REAL TO THOSE WHO DECIDE THEY DON"T EVEN BELIEVE IN HIM?????

So why can't God just reveal himself - not once vaguely through a late remission of a cancer, or a dream or vision - but actually in person, daily, appearing and disappearing, doing a few miracles, giving some advice etc.

I guess you must have missed that the word "faith" is in the Bible - it's in there a couple of times maybe. :suspect: You want a God that requires NO FAITH!!! Is that what you're saying???? You don't believe in the God of the Bible because He asks you to have faith first, before He'll help you out?

So if God talked to everyone all the time and gave everyone advice and did miracles for everyone often, THEN you would beleive? Well of course you would. Who wouldn't! So you'll never beleive in the God of the Bible because He doesn't operate the way YOU think He should.