Dave123 Posted January 15, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Edited January 15, 2009 by Dave123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave123 Posted January 15, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) legoman When God "raises up evil". We see this differently. Think the implication through. Did God take a "good" people, insert evil, then direct them towards Israel? This is what your position assumes. Or, did God take an already evil people, and simply direct them towards Israel? The second is not a creating of evil per say, but a providentially governing of it. God did not insert evil into their hearts, He simply left them to themselves. He ordained it. He used it. He decreed it. Yes it really comes down to Adam & Eve - did they have a sinful nature from the beginning (ie. before they ate from the tree)? I think I made a reasonable case for that in my last post. I leave it for you to consider. Again, the question is not "could they have sinned?" The point being missed in regards to the 'sinful nature' is that the one who is enslaved by it cannot do good because he is seperated from God, the Source of all that is good. In effect, you are claiming, by saying that Adam and Eve had a sinful nature before the fall, that they were already seperated from God and could not do good. Rememebr, God said that everything that He created was "good", including Adam and Eve. This does not mean that they could not sin, it simply meant that they did not yet sin, because accountability came with the knowledge of good and evil. The one thing that God commanded them not to do was the one thing that would make them accountable. Therefore Satan was never "perfect" and then fell from heaven. Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 Edited January 15, 2009 by Dave123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoman Posted January 15, 2009 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 44 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 15, 2009 legoman When God "raises up evil". We see this differently. Think the implication through. Did God take a "good" people, insert evil, then direct them towards Israel? This is what your position assumes. Or, did God take an already evil people, and simply direct them towards Israel? Hi Dave, I don't think you quite understand my position. Why do you think we were "good" to begin with? Because of Genesis 1? No where in genesis 1 does it say that men were good. It says the light was good, and the land and waters were good, and the vegetation was good, and the lights in the sky were good, and the creatures of the water and sky were good, and the creatures of the land were good. Then notice a funny thing. It skips right over man. Doesn't say man was good. Then, at the end in verse 31 we see: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. So it doesn't say man was good, but it does say all was very good. What does "very good" mean? Are mosquitos very good? How about poisonous snakes, or scorpions? How about the serpent, Satan? Is Satan very good? "very good" does not mean good in the absolute sense of good. What is being said here is that everything was very good for the purpose that God created it. Everything God created had a purpose: Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Thus men were also very good, for the purposes that God intended them to be. That is, men did and do exactly as God intended them for. The second is not a creating of evil per say, but a providentially governing of it. God did not insert evil into their hearts, He simply left them to themselves. He ordained it. He used it. He decreed it. God made us spiritually weak so we would succumb to evil and sin at the drop of a pin. It was God's intention. God made our heart: Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? Other versions of the bible describe the heart as "wicked" or "weak". If we were created "good", why is our heart desperately weak, sick, and wicked? Yes it really comes down to Adam & Eve - did they have a sinful nature from the beginning (ie. before they ate from the tree)? I think I made a reasonable case for that in my last post. I leave it for you to consider. Again, the question is not "could they have sinned?" The point being missed in regards to the 'sinful nature' is that the one who is enslaved by it cannot do good because he is seperated from God, the Source of all that is good. In effect, you are claiming, by saying that Adam and Eve had a sinful nature before the fall, that they were already seperated from God and could not do good. Rememebr, God said that everything that He created was "good", including Adam and Eve. This does not mean that they could not sin, it simply meant that they did not yet sin, because accountability came with the knowledge of good and evil. The one thing that God commanded them not to do was the one thing that would make them accountable. Hopefully my explanation above will give you insight into my viewpoint. No, not everything was good. Everything was very good for God's purpose, but not everything was good. There is a difference. Therefore Satan was never "perfect" and then fell from heaven. Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave123 Posted January 16, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. It does not say "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good for the purpose that God created it. This does not conflict with Prov. 16:4. Be careful not to read into that passage more than what is being said. Obviously, God had a purpose in creating men which He knew would be evil. Knowing this, He created them with that purpose in mind. This does not mean that God created evil men for His purpose. See the difference? In other words, the "purpose" of that passage speaks of that persons whole life, and is not restricted to the time of that persons creation, or better, does not imply that God inserted evil into them upon their creation. That's not what it says. NIV 4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends Edited January 16, 2009 by Dave123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave123 Posted January 16, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Hey J I'm on my way out. I just seen your name at the bottom of the page Good night Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~JM~ Posted January 16, 2009 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 7 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Dave, we Edited January 16, 2009 by ~JM~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoman Posted January 16, 2009 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 44 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2009 Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. It does not say "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good for the purpose that God created it. Then perhaps you can explain the other points I raised. How were mosquitos very good? Scorpions? Poisonous snakes? Serpents? Satan? How about this one: how is darkness very good? Why did God need to create darkness? If we didn't have darkness, many of the crimes of the world would not be committed because many people wait until the fall of night to commit their crimes. Yet the darkness was described as very good. It is very good for the purpose that God created it. This does not conflict with Prov. 16:4. Be careful not to read into that passage more than what is being said. Obviously, God had a purpose in creating men which He knew would be evil. Knowing this, He created them with that purpose in mind. This does not mean that God created evil men for His purpose. See the difference? In other words, the "purpose" of that passage speaks of that persons whole life, and is not restricted to the time of that persons creation, or better, does not imply that God inserted evil into them upon their creation. That's not what it says. True, the "purpose" in that passage does speak of the persons whole life. But you speak as if God has not planned (or at least knows) every detail of our lives. IMHO if you are the all-powerful all-sovereign creator of the world, there is no difference. If you are the creator of something and know how it will work, you are responsible for it. Whether God specifically made men to be evil, or just made man knowing he would be evil, is splitting hairs. For God time is not a factor. So he created Pharaoh knowing he would later raise him up and then harden his heart, all for God's purposes. That is why God created Pharaoh. God does not react to his creation. God is in active control of his creation. NIV 4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave123 Posted January 16, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Legoman But you speak as if God has not planned (or at least knows) every detail of our lives. I went out of my way to make sure that nobody misunderstood me in that regard. First paragraph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Only if you literally accept that King of Babylon was in Heaven, or that Satan was in heaven. John 3:13 says no one was in heaven except for the Son of God. Nobody *ascended* to heaven except the Son of God. Big difference. As for the rest, your answers are in my previous posts. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave123 Posted January 16, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 84 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Jason I used a similar quote earlier in this thread. "God is very often said to blind and harden the reprobate . . .. There are two methods in which God may so act. [1] When his light is taken away, nothing remains but blindness and darkness: when his Spirit is taken away, our hearts become hard as stones: when his guidance is withdrawn, we immediately turn from the right path: and hence he is properly said to incline, harden, and blind those whom he deprives of the faculty of seeing, obeying, and rightly executing. The second method . . . is when executing his judgements by Satan as the minister of his anger, God both directs men's counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases. Institutes. (II.4.3) Lets try this a different way. Bear with me. I know we can get very technical with this analogy, but take in its most simplest understanding. When I turn on a light in a room, I created that light. The light overpowered the darkness. That's what I would define as effectual cause. Now, when I turn off that light, the room becomes dark. Darkness was not created, it did not overcome the light. The light was removed and darkness is what was left. Would it be right to say that I effectually caused that darkness? I don't believe so. Also, I did not create darkness for the purpose of overtaking the light. I simply removed the light. If we carry this analogy over to good vs. evil. Evil is not a created thing meant to overtake the light. Evil is the absence of good. God's justice did not demand that evil be created to overtake good, but it did demand that the light be removed. Within God's eternal decree, there was a purpose for darkness. God did use it, He decreed it. He ordained it, etc . He's sovereign over it, He just didn't effectually cause it. He can't without ceasing to be God. This is what I believe that Calvin means in both quotes. And this is where I believe that you and I differ. I believe that God can be sovereign over something that He doesn't effectually cause. He can decree it etc., etc, right down the line. There seems to be the idea with you, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that if God is sovereign over it, then he had to effectually cause it. I agree that when the light was turned off, God knew and planned on the darkness being there, and used it, etc. He just didn't effectuall cause it. Dave Edited January 16, 2009 by Dave123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoman Posted January 16, 2009 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 44 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Legoman But you speak as if God has not planned (or at least knows) every detail of our lives. I went out of my way to make sure that nobody misunderstood me in that regard. First paragraph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Sorry Dave, I don't really think that was a straw man arguement. And actually I didn't mean that you believe God doesn't know everything. But to say that God created men who he knew would be evil is somehow different than creating men to be evil, is really splitting hairs. Either way it was in God's intent that men be evil. Its not like God didn't have any control over what the man would do. That was my point, not some silly straw man argument. Anyway forget it if you want. My intent is not to misrepresent anyone, only understand the truth as described in scripture, so please do not be offended. Only if you literally accept that King of Babylon was in Heaven, or that Satan was in heaven. John 3:13 says no one was in heaven except for the Son of God. Nobody *ascended* to heaven except the Son of God. Big difference. Fair enough point. But clearly the King of Babylon was never literally in heaven. Inferring that it means Satan, instead of interpreting it as meaning the King of Babylon was figuratively in heaven, is the real question. As for the rest, your answers are in my previous posts. Dave Well, I think you have avoided several of my questions. But that is ok. Did you have any thoughts on why God created darkness and how darkness is "very good"? (Other than being "very good" for its purpose?) And I would really love to know your comment on these scriptures (which I didn't see in any of your responses): Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. Maybe I missed your answer, but to me they all clearly show God created Satan to be what he is, and that was God's intent and purpose. That for me is the real deal killer of the lucifer myth that is read into Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Cheers, Legoman Edited January 16, 2009 by legoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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