legoman

These verses are relevant to your statement on salvation. Luke 3:6 And all mankind will see God's salvation. Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; ... " Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. John 4:42 They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world." Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." Matt 19 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." And of course don't forget the verses in the original post that say God is reconciling all things to himself. Sounds like Jesus came to save all. Legoman

God had to make us acceptable...He reconciled us (the saved) to Himself through the blood of Jesus who, remember, died for us... thus giving us eternal life through Him. Yes I agree God is/will be reconciling us. Why do the above verses say "all things" and "the world"? God is going to reconcile all things and the world to himself. Would that not only includes believers, but unbelievers? And how would this reconciliation take place? Legoman

What do these verses mean: Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. Any ideas? Legoman

I went out of my way to make sure that nobody misunderstood me in that regard. First paragraph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Sorry Dave, I don't really think that was a straw man arguement. And actually I didn't mean that you believe God doesn't know everything. But to say that God created men who he knew would be evil is somehow different than creating men to be evil, is really splitting hairs. Either way it was in God's intent that men be evil. Its not like God didn't have any control over what the man would do. That was my point, not some silly straw man argument. Anyway forget it if you want. My intent is not to misrepresent anyone, only understand the truth as described in scripture, so please do not be offended. Nobody *ascended* to heaven except the Son of God. Big difference. Fair enough point. But clearly the King of Babylon was never literally in heaven. Inferring that it means Satan, instead of interpreting it as meaning the King of Babylon was figuratively in heaven, is the real question. Well, I think you have avoided several of my questions. But that is ok. Did you have any thoughts on why God created darkness and how darkness is "very good"? (Other than being "very good" for its purpose?) And I would really love to know your comment on these scriptures (which I didn't see in any of your responses): Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. Maybe I missed your answer, but to me they all clearly show God created Satan to be what he is, and that was God's intent and purpose. That for me is the real deal killer of the lucifer myth that is read into Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Cheers, Legoman did God create darkness? scriptures tell us there was darkness in the beginning & God created light. later He created the sun, moon & stars. best to ponder on this first 'light' that he created. so, what darkness are you speaking of? nighttime? there's only good at nighttime. most creatures must sleep. some must have the cover of nighttime to hunt and so to eat. plants must rest and not continually photosynthesisize (i made up that word ) also, the stars can only declare the Glory of God at nighttime. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Here we see that God created the heavens and the earth, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Notice here that God creates darkness. I view it this way. God himself could be viewed as pure light. If God hadn't created darkness, everything would be lit up constantly. There would be light everywhere. I agree with your examples of why darkness is good. It is good for the purposes it is created - that is my point. Everything was created "good" for the purposes that God intended. Darkness can be for His good purposes, but there isn't only good at night. Many crimes are committed at night that otherwise wouldn't be committed. Many people become lost or die at night who wouldn't have otherwise if it had been light out. Darkness causes people to trip and stumble. Now you might say that we need darkness so we can sleep or so that plants can photosynthesize etc. But that leads to the question - why did God make plants require darkness in order to breath? God could have easily conceived a creation that didn't require darkness. But that was not His plan. His plan requires darkness. God created darkness for His purposes - and that was very good. Anyway back to the main point: when it says "it was very good" in Gen 1:31 - it doesn't mean everything was morally good. It means everything was very good for the purpose that God intended. JMHO Legoman

I went out of my way to make sure that nobody misunderstood me in that regard. First paragraph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Sorry Dave, I don't really think that was a straw man arguement. And actually I didn't mean that you believe God doesn't know everything. But to say that God created men who he knew would be evil is somehow different than creating men to be evil, is really splitting hairs. Either way it was in God's intent that men be evil. Its not like God didn't have any control over what the man would do. That was my point, not some silly straw man argument. Anyway forget it if you want. My intent is not to misrepresent anyone, only understand the truth as described in scripture, so please do not be offended. Nobody *ascended* to heaven except the Son of God. Big difference. Fair enough point. But clearly the King of Babylon was never literally in heaven. Inferring that it means Satan, instead of interpreting it as meaning the King of Babylon was figuratively in heaven, is the real question. Well, I think you have avoided several of my questions. But that is ok. Did you have any thoughts on why God created darkness and how darkness is "very good"? (Other than being "very good" for its purpose?) And I would really love to know your comment on these scriptures (which I didn't see in any of your responses): Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. Maybe I missed your answer, but to me they all clearly show God created Satan to be what he is, and that was God's intent and purpose. That for me is the real deal killer of the lucifer myth that is read into Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Cheers, Legoman

Then perhaps you can explain the other points I raised. How were mosquitos very good? Scorpions? Poisonous snakes? Serpents? Satan? How about this one: how is darkness very good? Why did God need to create darkness? If we didn't have darkness, many of the crimes of the world would not be committed because many people wait until the fall of night to commit their crimes. Yet the darkness was described as very good. It is very good for the purpose that God created it. True, the "purpose" in that passage does speak of the persons whole life. But you speak as if God has not planned (or at least knows) every detail of our lives. IMHO if you are the all-powerful all-sovereign creator of the world, there is no difference. If you are the creator of something and know how it will work, you are responsible for it. Whether God specifically made men to be evil, or just made man knowing he would be evil, is splitting hairs. For God time is not a factor. So he created Pharaoh knowing he would later raise him up and then harden his heart, all for God's purposes. That is why God created Pharaoh. God does not react to his creation. God is in active control of his creation.

Hi Dave, I don't think you quite understand my position. Why do you think we were "good" to begin with? Because of Genesis 1? No where in genesis 1 does it say that men were good. It says the light was good, and the land and waters were good, and the vegetation was good, and the lights in the sky were good, and the creatures of the water and sky were good, and the creatures of the land were good. Then notice a funny thing. It skips right over man. Doesn't say man was good. Then, at the end in verse 31 we see: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. So it doesn't say man was good, but it does say all was very good. What does "very good" mean? Are mosquitos very good? How about poisonous snakes, or scorpions? How about the serpent, Satan? Is Satan very good? "very good" does not mean good in the absolute sense of good. What is being said here is that everything was very good for the purpose that God created it. Everything God created had a purpose: Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Thus men were also very good, for the purposes that God intended them to be. That is, men did and do exactly as God intended them for. God made us spiritually weak so we would succumb to evil and sin at the drop of a pin. It was God's intention. God made our heart: Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? Other versions of the bible describe the heart as "wicked" or "weak". If we were created "good", why is our heart desperately weak, sick, and wicked? Again, the question is not "could they have sinned?" The point being missed in regards to the 'sinful nature' is that the one who is enslaved by it cannot do good because he is seperated from God, the Source of all that is good. In effect, you are claiming, by saying that Adam and Eve had a sinful nature before the fall, that they were already seperated from God and could not do good. Rememebr, God said that everything that He created was "good", including Adam and Eve. This does not mean that they could not sin, it simply meant that they did not yet sin, because accountability came with the knowledge of good and evil. The one thing that God commanded them not to do was the one thing that would make them accountable. Hopefully my explanation above will give you insight into my viewpoint. No, not everything was good. Everything was very good for God's purpose, but not everything was good. There is a difference. Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12

Hi lego, What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77? LT Hi LT, I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up. Legoman The reason I posted it is because I thought it was clear to me what he was trying to get across. That Jesus did not die for the sins of everyone or everyone would be saved. That is to say that His death is sufficient to pay for all the sins of all the saved people. Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would? LT Scripture is clear that Jesus died for everyone. Why would he pay for the sins of those that reject him? I'm sure there is a reason. We don't simply reject the scriptures because we can't think of a reason. I posted many of the scriptures that show this in this thread: http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Jesus...rld-t97931.html Here are some of them again: Acts 16 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . . So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me." Amen Brother! Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Funny word - whosoever. The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"? All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given. The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings? Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS? The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come) I see - a limited whosoever. Whosover could be everyone eventually. Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 14:11 It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' " Isaiah 45 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. Cheers, Legoman

Hi JM, I pretty much 100% (maybe 99%) agree with what you said here. Eph 1:11 is just too clear and cannot be ignored. You state it clearly: "all things" are ordained by God and not a single event can takes place in time that isn

Hi lego, What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77? LT Hi LT, I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up. Legoman

Hi Dave, No unfortunately I'm not familiar with infra* supra* (who comes up with these terms?! ) Yes it really comes down to Adam & Eve - did they have a sinful nature from the beginning (ie. before they ate from the tree)? I think I made a reasonable case for that in my last post. I leave it for you to consider. Regarding God creating Satan, these verses indicate that God created Satan to be the adversary (not a perfect archangel): Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. To me, these verses are clear. God created the waster to destroy - he formed the crooked serpent. He created the devil who was a murderer from the beginining. Satan was never in the truth. Therefore Satan was never "perfect" and then fell from heaven. Here is something for you to consider. You say everything God created was "good". Yet it clearly says he has "created the waster to destroy". His hand "formed the crooked serpent". Perhaps when God says everything was good, He means it was good for the purpose he intended it for. You can decide for yourself what these verses mean. This is my understanding: God needed an adversary so he could teach us what goodness is. So He went ahead and created the adversary to do exactly what He wanted. If you want to read a bit more on the "Myth of Lucifer", check out this article: http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html It is definitely written from a different perspective than you might normally hear, but it backs everything up with scripture, and does quite a good job on explaining the Ezekiel 28/Isaiah 14 "Lucifer Myth". It is long but worth a read. Regarding the article link you posted, I think I mostly agree with their definition of free will. Free will means free from any influence or outside coercion (as they put it). With that definition we cannot have free will. What we have is a "caused" will. We make choices, and those choices have a cause. Cause and effect. The article goes on to say we are either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ (Romans 6). 100% agree there. However you slice it, we don't have a free will. Cheers, Legoman

Hi Dave, Thanks for the ref to the other thread. I read through it, and it appears perhaps we are in closer agreement than I thought? God is sovereign, God is in control, therefore God is responsible for good AND evil. Hm, not sure if we are completely off topic from your original post... but it does show (perhaps in some mixed up way) the necessity of evil in order to understand good Let me ask you this on slightly different a tangent: Do you believe good will triumph over evil and God will eventually reconcile the world to himself? 2 Cor 5:18-21 and Col 1:20 speak of God reconciling all things (and the world). Cheers, Legoman

Hi Mudcat, I agree. I don't think we can really say there is a middle ground. ie. God didn't really want evil, he only allowed it... Either God is sovereign or he is not. Either God is in control or he is not. Either God is responsible for evil or he is not. God is sovereign, God is in control, and God is responsible for evil. And like you said, it is a necessary temporary evil that God will use for his good purposes and reconcile at the end. Good will triumph over evil and God will reconcile the world (2 Cor 5:18-21). Cheers, Legoman