legoman

These verses are relevant to your statement on salvation. Luke 3:6 And all mankind will see God's salvation. Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; ... " Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. John 4:42 They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world." Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." Matt 19 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." And of course don't forget the verses in the original post that say God is reconciling all things to himself. Sounds like Jesus came to save all. Legoman

God had to make us acceptable...He reconciled us (the saved) to Himself through the blood of Jesus who, remember, died for us... thus giving us eternal life through Him. Yes I agree God is/will be reconciling us. Why do the above verses say "all things" and "the world"? God is going to reconcile all things and the world to himself. Would that not only includes believers, but unbelievers? And how would this reconciliation take place? Legoman

What do these verses mean: Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. Any ideas? Legoman

I went out of my way to make sure that nobody misunderstood me in that regard. First paragraph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Sorry Dave, I don't really think that was a straw man arguement. And actually I didn't mean that you believe God doesn't know everything. But to say that God created men who he knew would be evil is somehow different than creating men to be evil, is really splitting hairs. Either way it was in God's intent that men be evil. Its not like God didn't have any control over what the man would do. That was my point, not some silly straw man argument. Anyway forget it if you want. My intent is not to misrepresent anyone, only understand the truth as described in scripture, so please do not be offended. Nobody *ascended* to heaven except the Son of God. Big difference. Fair enough point. But clearly the King of Babylon was never literally in heaven. Inferring that it means Satan, instead of interpreting it as meaning the King of Babylon was figuratively in heaven, is the real question. Well, I think you have avoided several of my questions. But that is ok. Did you have any thoughts on why God created darkness and how darkness is "very good"? (Other than being "very good" for its purpose?) And I would really love to know your comment on these scriptures (which I didn't see in any of your responses): Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. Maybe I missed your answer, but to me they all clearly show God created Satan to be what he is, and that was God's intent and purpose. That for me is the real deal killer of the lucifer myth that is read into Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Cheers, Legoman did God create darkness? scriptures tell us there was darkness in the beginning & God created light. later He created the sun, moon & stars. best to ponder on this first 'light' that he created. so, what darkness are you speaking of? nighttime? there's only good at nighttime. most creatures must sleep. some must have the cover of nighttime to hunt and so to eat. plants must rest and not continually photosynthesisize (i made up that word ) also, the stars can only declare the Glory of God at nighttime. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Here we see that God created the heavens and the earth, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Notice here that God creates darkness. I view it this way. God himself could be viewed as pure light. If God hadn't created darkness, everything would be lit up constantly. There would be light everywhere. I agree with your examples of why darkness is good. It is good for the purposes it is created - that is my point. Everything was created "good" for the purposes that God intended. Darkness can be for His good purposes, but there isn't only good at night. Many crimes are committed at night that otherwise wouldn't be committed. Many people become lost or die at night who wouldn't have otherwise if it had been light out. Darkness causes people to trip and stumble. Now you might say that we need darkness so we can sleep or so that plants can photosynthesize etc. But that leads to the question - why did God make plants require darkness in order to breath? God could have easily conceived a creation that didn't require darkness. But that was not His plan. His plan requires darkness. God created darkness for His purposes - and that was very good. Anyway back to the main point: when it says "it was very good" in Gen 1:31 - it doesn't mean everything was morally good. It means everything was very good for the purpose that God intended. JMHO Legoman

I went out of my way to make sure that nobody misunderstood me in that regard. First paragraph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Sorry Dave, I don't really think that was a straw man arguement. And actually I didn't mean that you believe God doesn't know everything. But to say that God created men who he knew would be evil is somehow different than creating men to be evil, is really splitting hairs. Either way it was in God's intent that men be evil. Its not like God didn't have any control over what the man would do. That was my point, not some silly straw man argument. Anyway forget it if you want. My intent is not to misrepresent anyone, only understand the truth as described in scripture, so please do not be offended. Nobody *ascended* to heaven except the Son of God. Big difference. Fair enough point. But clearly the King of Babylon was never literally in heaven. Inferring that it means Satan, instead of interpreting it as meaning the King of Babylon was figuratively in heaven, is the real question. Well, I think you have avoided several of my questions. But that is ok. Did you have any thoughts on why God created darkness and how darkness is "very good"? (Other than being "very good" for its purpose?) And I would really love to know your comment on these scriptures (which I didn't see in any of your responses): Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. Maybe I missed your answer, but to me they all clearly show God created Satan to be what he is, and that was God's intent and purpose. That for me is the real deal killer of the lucifer myth that is read into Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Cheers, Legoman

Then perhaps you can explain the other points I raised. How were mosquitos very good? Scorpions? Poisonous snakes? Serpents? Satan? How about this one: how is darkness very good? Why did God need to create darkness? If we didn't have darkness, many of the crimes of the world would not be committed because many people wait until the fall of night to commit their crimes. Yet the darkness was described as very good. It is very good for the purpose that God created it. True, the "purpose" in that passage does speak of the persons whole life. But you speak as if God has not planned (or at least knows) every detail of our lives. IMHO if you are the all-powerful all-sovereign creator of the world, there is no difference. If you are the creator of something and know how it will work, you are responsible for it. Whether God specifically made men to be evil, or just made man knowing he would be evil, is splitting hairs. For God time is not a factor. So he created Pharaoh knowing he would later raise him up and then harden his heart, all for God's purposes. That is why God created Pharaoh. God does not react to his creation. God is in active control of his creation.

Hi Dave, I don't think you quite understand my position. Why do you think we were "good" to begin with? Because of Genesis 1? No where in genesis 1 does it say that men were good. It says the light was good, and the land and waters were good, and the vegetation was good, and the lights in the sky were good, and the creatures of the water and sky were good, and the creatures of the land were good. Then notice a funny thing. It skips right over man. Doesn't say man was good. Then, at the end in verse 31 we see: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. So it doesn't say man was good, but it does say all was very good. What does "very good" mean? Are mosquitos very good? How about poisonous snakes, or scorpions? How about the serpent, Satan? Is Satan very good? "very good" does not mean good in the absolute sense of good. What is being said here is that everything was very good for the purpose that God created it. Everything God created had a purpose: Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Thus men were also very good, for the purposes that God intended them to be. That is, men did and do exactly as God intended them for. God made us spiritually weak so we would succumb to evil and sin at the drop of a pin. It was God's intention. God made our heart: Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? Other versions of the bible describe the heart as "wicked" or "weak". If we were created "good", why is our heart desperately weak, sick, and wicked? Again, the question is not "could they have sinned?" The point being missed in regards to the 'sinful nature' is that the one who is enslaved by it cannot do good because he is seperated from God, the Source of all that is good. In effect, you are claiming, by saying that Adam and Eve had a sinful nature before the fall, that they were already seperated from God and could not do good. Rememebr, God said that everything that He created was "good", including Adam and Eve. This does not mean that they could not sin, it simply meant that they did not yet sin, because accountability came with the knowledge of good and evil. The one thing that God commanded them not to do was the one thing that would make them accountable. Hopefully my explanation above will give you insight into my viewpoint. No, not everything was good. Everything was very good for God's purpose, but not everything was good. There is a difference. Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12

Hi lego, What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77? LT Hi LT, I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up. Legoman The reason I posted it is because I thought it was clear to me what he was trying to get across. That Jesus did not die for the sins of everyone or everyone would be saved. That is to say that His death is sufficient to pay for all the sins of all the saved people. Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would? LT Scripture is clear that Jesus died for everyone. Why would he pay for the sins of those that reject him? I'm sure there is a reason. We don't simply reject the scriptures because we can't think of a reason. I posted many of the scriptures that show this in this thread: http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Jesus...rld-t97931.html Here are some of them again: Acts 16 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . . So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me." Amen Brother! Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Funny word - whosoever. The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"? All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given. The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings? Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS? The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come) I see - a limited whosoever. Whosover could be everyone eventually. Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 14:11 It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' " Isaiah 45 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. Cheers, Legoman

Hi JM, I pretty much 100% (maybe 99%) agree with what you said here. Eph 1:11 is just too clear and cannot be ignored. You state it clearly: "all things" are ordained by God and not a single event can takes place in time that isn

Hi lego, What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77? LT Hi LT, I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up. Legoman

Hi Dave, No unfortunately I'm not familiar with infra* supra* (who comes up with these terms?! ) Yes it really comes down to Adam & Eve - did they have a sinful nature from the beginning (ie. before they ate from the tree)? I think I made a reasonable case for that in my last post. I leave it for you to consider. Regarding God creating Satan, these verses indicate that God created Satan to be the adversary (not a perfect archangel): Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. To me, these verses are clear. God created the waster to destroy - he formed the crooked serpent. He created the devil who was a murderer from the beginining. Satan was never in the truth. Therefore Satan was never "perfect" and then fell from heaven. Here is something for you to consider. You say everything God created was "good". Yet it clearly says he has "created the waster to destroy". His hand "formed the crooked serpent". Perhaps when God says everything was good, He means it was good for the purpose he intended it for. You can decide for yourself what these verses mean. This is my understanding: God needed an adversary so he could teach us what goodness is. So He went ahead and created the adversary to do exactly what He wanted. If you want to read a bit more on the "Myth of Lucifer", check out this article: http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html It is definitely written from a different perspective than you might normally hear, but it backs everything up with scripture, and does quite a good job on explaining the Ezekiel 28/Isaiah 14 "Lucifer Myth". It is long but worth a read. Regarding the article link you posted, I think I mostly agree with their definition of free will. Free will means free from any influence or outside coercion (as they put it). With that definition we cannot have free will. What we have is a "caused" will. We make choices, and those choices have a cause. Cause and effect. The article goes on to say we are either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ (Romans 6). 100% agree there. However you slice it, we don't have a free will. Cheers, Legoman

Hi Dave, Thanks for the ref to the other thread. I read through it, and it appears perhaps we are in closer agreement than I thought? God is sovereign, God is in control, therefore God is responsible for good AND evil. Hm, not sure if we are completely off topic from your original post... but it does show (perhaps in some mixed up way) the necessity of evil in order to understand good Let me ask you this on slightly different a tangent: Do you believe good will triumph over evil and God will eventually reconcile the world to himself? 2 Cor 5:18-21 and Col 1:20 speak of God reconciling all things (and the world). Cheers, Legoman

Hi Mudcat, I agree. I don't think we can really say there is a middle ground. ie. God didn't really want evil, he only allowed it... Either God is sovereign or he is not. Either God is in control or he is not. Either God is responsible for evil or he is not. God is sovereign, God is in control, and God is responsible for evil. And like you said, it is a necessary temporary evil that God will use for his good purposes and reconcile at the end. Good will triumph over evil and God will reconcile the world (2 Cor 5:18-21). Cheers, Legoman

I thought he paid the debt for the whole world. That is what the scripture you posted at the top said: 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Sorry if you discussed this verse earlier in the thread, I didn't see it. Cheers, Legoman

Again, a muddying of the waters. This is a direct result of our seperation from God that we inherited from Adam. This is a seperation that is not only from God, but from the only source of good. This is also an act of judgement. This is why it is said "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5). Until God moves, man is left to himself. Without God, the source of all good, (John 15:5, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Isaiah 64:6) man can only produce evil. This is the foundation for the doctrine known as total depravity, or better, total inability. God must move first (John 6:44). Calvin touched on this in the quote I gave from my previous post. This is speaking of Gods providence. I agree that He governs all things. This is very different from saying that He effectually caused them. "Worketh all" would fall into the catagory of what you would call "does use [all]". Dave Hi Dave, Sorry you can call it muddying the waters if you want, but it is quite relevant to know that God uses evil for his purposes. God has a plan from the beginning, before creation even existed. That plan involves using evil. God did not have to modify his plan to counteract evil because his created humans "malfuncitoned" and decided to sin. God is not running a damage control center, forever coming up with a new plan B that uses our evil ways for Good. No. God's plan intended there to be evil. He uses it for ultimately good purposes - so we will be humbled and learn righteousness. In that sense, God is the cause of the evil in this world - because he has declared everything from beginning to end (Isaiah 46:10), brings it all to pass (Isaiah 46:11), and operates all according to his will (Eph 1:11). From your response I can't really tell what you think the real source of evil is. You say that without God, man can only produce evil. True, but who is it that designed man that way? Why did God design men to be evil? Or did men make themself evil? What is the true source or cause of evil then in your opinion? 1. Humanity 2. The human heart 3. Human "free will" 4. Satan 5. God As I see it, the problem with options 1 to 4, is that God created each of these with complete foreknowledge of what would happen. God has complete foreknowledge and is all-knowing and all-powerful. So, before God even created humanity, he knew that humanity would sin and do evil. Now to say that God created humans knowing full well that they would perpetrate evil, yet God didn't intend for them to do evil, seems to be a bit of a contradiction on God's part. If God didn't intend for there to be evil and sin, surely God would have come up with a better plan. Obviously he did intend to create us this way because that is the way we are. Here is the scripture that confirms this: Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Just to emphasize what Romans 8:20 says - we were made this way - subject to vanity - NOT WILLINGLY. We are in bondage of corruption because God put us in bondage of corruption. Many believe that Adam & Eve were "very good" or even "perfect" when God created them in the garden of Eden. The obvious question is: if they were perfect, then why did they sin!? Creation was indeed "very good" - it was very good for what God intended the creation to do. Genesis 3:6 proves that God intended for Adam & Eve to sin and eat of the tree of knowledge. Here it is again if you missed it in my previous post: Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Now look at 1 John 2: 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Eve committed every major category of sin (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life) before she even partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil! She saw: 1. the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh) 2. it was pleasent to the eyes (lust of the eyes) 3. it was desired to make one wise (pride of life) The important thing to understand here: Eve did not get her sin nature by eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil. She already had her sin nature. God intended it because that is the way he made Eve. Let me know what you think, Legoman

Yes, I don't disagree with that. God uses evil circumstances and activities as part of his judgement. To the one being judged, at that moment, it may appear to be an evil situation, but God is meaning it for good. Psalm 119:39 "Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good." So here we see God's judgments are good, even though he uses evil to carry them out. Your response: The first quote which I used speaks of effectual cause only. But the second, your responce in critiquing the first adds "sends forth" and "uses". This is a muddying of the waters, wouldn't you agree? We are speaking strictly of the cause, or source of evil. Yes perhaps that is part of the confusion. Are we talking about 'evil circumstances', or just the 'concept of evil itself'? Clearly from the previous verses I had quoted we can see that God does use, cause, and even creates evil circumstances. For example He raised up the Bablyonians (Chaldeans) in Hab 1 to do evil that He purposed. From what I have read I don't think you disagree with that either (please correct me if I am wrong). However perhaps here is the real answer as to the direct source of evil. I will let the scripture say it: Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? Here we see that evil comes from the heart, and it needs to be washed out. I still maintain that God is the cause of all things, as that is what these scripture say: Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 1 Cor 12: 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. Whether we like it or not, God is working all in accordance with his own purpose and will. Some of this "working all things" includes working evil for his purposes. God is the ultimate cause of all things. Even consider man's heart. Out of man's heart proceeds all sorts of evil. But, who created the man's heart? God did! Was man's heart pure and good before he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Eve lusted after the fruit before she had even eaten it. Why is this? Her heart caused her to lust. God designed it that way. Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience (unbelief) so that he may have mercy on them all. God does set people against his will so that he can have mercy on them later. Thanks for your polite discussion on this. Cheers, Legoman

Hi Dave, Yes God is the source of all good, he is the source of all. Is evil the absence of good? I don't think so exactly. Contrary to the article, evil is a created thing. God does indeed setup and cause evil circumstances to use for good purposes. He raised up Pharaoh for his purposes. Its the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How can anyone know what "good" is unless they have experienced evil? Good and evil go hand in hand. Good will overcome evil. If there was no evil, good could not overcome. Eventually evil will be abolished, and good will overcome. The article says if God creates evil, then "then God must himself be evil". Not true. We know that God has a knowledge of good and evil. Just because he uses evil, sets up evil circumstances, even creates evil, does not mean he is evil. God uses evil for ultimately good purposes. There are many things God can do that humans should not. Humans should not use evil for any purpose - but God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He can right any wrong and He can use evil as he sees fit. The article says "God does not do evil". Again, not true. There are many examples in scripture where God sends forth evil, causes evil, uses evil, etc. God used Assyria like a "club in his hand" (Isaiah 10:5) Here are some more examples of God using evil, creating evil, raising up evil, etc. in the scriptures. Maybe you say that the 'evil' in these verses should really mean 'calamity'. We shall see: Ecc 1:13 And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It [is] a sad [hebrew: Ra] travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it. Notice the word 'ra' is there again in Ecc 1:13. The concordant old testament translates it as "an experience of evil has God given to the sons of man to be humbled by it" This verse is key to understanding why God uses and causes evil. Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. Josh 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. Now are the above verses talking about just calamity, or evil? What is the difference? If the LORD promises to bring you all evil things until you are destroyed, doesn't that sound like the LORD is raising up evil for his purpose? 2 Sam 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 1 Sam 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. These verses in 1 & 2 Samuel are pretty clear. The Lord is raising up evil and will take their wives and give them to their neighbour. And then we see what happened to Amalek. Men, women and children slaughtered - this is more than just calamity, this is evil. Look at Habakkuk 1:13 in context of verses 5-11: 5 "Look at the nations and watch

'good' comes from God! But of course that should be obvious as all is from God Cheers, Legoman Define all? Does all include evil? Some believe that, but I don't and vehemently object. Blessings All would be everything, which I think by definition has to include evil. Look at the verses above where it talks about good and evil (ie. Job 2:10, Lam 3:38) Do you agree that all things are of God? 2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. And don't forget Isaiah 45:7 ... I make peace, and create evil ... The word evil is from the hebrew word 'Ra'. Some bible translate it as 'calamity'. Make of it what you will, but that is what the scriptures say. God has knowledge of good and 'ra', God created the tree of knowledge of good and 'ra', God creates 'ra', God speaks 'ra', God sends out 'ra', God causes 'ra' in the city (Amos 3:6). God is heavily involved in causing 'ra', whatever 'ra' is. Now please don't misinterpret what I am saying. God is not evil. God is good. In fact no one is good but God (Mat 19:17). Through him we will become good. Thus the reason for the evil. One cannot know what good is unless one knows what evil is. Peace, Legoman

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Jeremiah 10:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil. Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. 'good' comes from God! But of course that should be obvious as all is from God Cheers, Legoman

If God's good pleasure is that none perish, does that mean that God will actually save all? We know from scripture that God will do whatever his good pleasure is and whatever he has purposed: Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. This makes it pretty clear that God will do whatever he has purposed and whatever is his pleasure. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So does the "any" in 2 Pe 3:9 really mean "any of us believers", or is it just "anyone" as the scripture reads? Legoman Legoman, wasup Your last question. The english language requires that the subject referred to after a comma must be continuous of the subject before the comma. Look at this paragraph; Shrimp fishermen are long suffering toward sea turtle, not wishing that any should perish but all should be saved. You clearly understand that the "any" after the comma refers to the sea turtles. If Peter had written, Long suffering on behalf of those who recieve like faith, not wishing any would perish but all would come to repentance, you would instantly see that the any is a continuation of the previous subject. In using the word "us" he does establish who the "any" is intended to mean. It would take the clear establishment of another subject in order to re-assign the "any" to mean some other group of people or some other subject. The english language simply can not allow for your understanding of this text. While I have not studied the original greek text here, it is my understanding that it more clearly links the subjects of this verse. HIS Peace Thankyou for replying Kross, that is the first time I have seen that explanation/interpretation of 2 Pe 3:9. I will have to consider it carefully. However I don't think it is as clear as you say "the english language simply can not allow for" that understanding. Let me explain: The Lord ... is long-suffering to us-ward... Who is the "us" in this passage? Here are 3 possibilities: 1. The "us" is the people Peter was speaking to originally. 2. The "us" is believers in Christ. 3. The "us" is all humanity. However, notice the common theme: the "us" (quite obviously) is always refering to mankind. The subject is mankind, so it is quite possible that the "any" is referring to "any of mankind", and not necessarily just a subclass of mankind. The use of the words "all come to repentance" in the rest of the phrase further reinforce this. The sea turtle example you give is not completely analagous as the subject "sea turtle" is not as ambiguous as the word "us". Perhaps if sea turtles could talk, then we would have the same problem: "Shrimp fishermen are long suffering toward us, not wishing that any should perish but all should be saved." Is the sea turtle saying all sea turtles will be saved, or only those sea turtles he was directly talking to? So I think at best we can say 2 Pe 3:9 is somewhat ambiguous and we need to refer to other scripture to determine its true meaning. As always, clearly more study is required. Cheers, Legoman

If God's good pleasure is that none perish, does that mean that God will actually save all? We know from scripture that God will do whatever his good pleasure is and whatever he has purposed: Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. This makes it pretty clear that God will do whatever he has purposed and whatever is his pleasure. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So does the "any" in 2 Pe 3:9 really mean "any of us believers", or is it just "anyone" as the scripture reads? Legoman

It is a valuable point that it is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus the means to attain knowledge of evil was provided by GOD. Plus, the point is aptly made that the knowledge of evil was and is with GOD eternally. So, from this knowledge HE can make something like Satan without sinning or having sin in HIMSELF. Grace to you, I would argue that He cannot in the context in which you are framing your argument. He cannot make satan with the sole express purpose of sinning.. God may have the knowledge of evil but that does not mean that it resides in Him. But we know that God did create Satan to be the adversary. The scriptures plainly tell us that: Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. From these scriptures, we know that God made the serpent, Satan. God "formed the crooked serpent". Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and he was not in the truth. He was formed that way from the beginning. God made him that way. God made the waster to destroy. It was all for God's purpose - God knew exactly what he was doing. I think the key thing here is that the knowledge of good and evil is good. God of course has this knowledge. Evil itself is of course evil. God of course is not evil. Evil could be defined as the opposite of good - doing bad, doing sin, etc. So it when it says that everything that was created "was very good" - it just means that it was very good for God's purposes. I mean even Satan was created, and he was called "very good". Cheers, Legoman

Does God allow evil or does God cause/create evil? Is there even a difference? Is there a difference between "allowing" something or "causing" something if you are the all-powerful sovereign creator of the universe? Now for us humans there is certainly a difference. I may "allow" my 4 year old daughter to jump on her bed, but only because I am not omniscient and can't monitor her every single second of the day. I don't want her to jump on the bed, but she does occasionally when I am not looking. But what about God? Is God "allowing" Satan to run around causing havoc? God doesn't want Satan to tempt people? Satan has twisted God's arm and God "gave in" to Satan? These are human attributes that cannot be applied to an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God. If Satan is doing something, it is only because it is part of God's plan. Legoman