hayahtowb

Those are not the only verses that document the return with all (both sides of the gulf) the heavenly hosts, like: Revelation 1.7 "Behold, He cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kinders of the earth shall wail because of Him. even so, Amen." I would never knowingly lie to anyone.

I don't normally list things twice, and as I've told OneLight, so I'll repeat this for you. 1st Thessaloians 4. 13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope." verse 14: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him." Please notice that we have two types of people here, those with no hope, and those with hope. God brings all for judgment, and at the same time, everything changes ('caught up') with force and unstoppable power from God. Then a thousand years latter, another test (for satan & the others).

Yes, I believe all things will change when Christ appears.

Hi OneLight, Ezekiel 18.4 "Behold all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." With difficulty this verse can be taken out of context, however we know that these are the words of God, and used for all mankind (we became living souls in Genesis and in every conception since then), and more directly towards Israel in that passage. Or I could use: Psalms 40.7 "Then said I, "Lo, I come : In the volume of the book it is written of me," for a better example, saying: who do you think that could be refering to? Well I will not insult your intellingents that way, but said all that to say, we must pay attention to phrases like: "In that day", or "The day of the Lord." because most all of them point to God taking back His earth; His creations, for His pleasure, in His time. You used a passage that raptures believers use as a strong support for such teachings, and I ask you to back in that chapter, to get a better understand the subject. Paul is speaking to the Thessalonians about many diffrent things, including the false teachings going around at that time, and in the first letter to them, in chapter 4,.. the subject is set in verse 13: "But I would not have to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as the others which have no hope." Verse 14: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him."And I don't have to ask if you believe, I can see that you do! You love the GOD I worship. It's an awesome time to be alive, with salvation still at hand, and tribulation grows! The devil comes first, then God... with His unstoppable change and power, taking what's His with judgment. And giving you, a crown.

Hi ezekiel33, and thanks for talking with me. I think God is against us trying to escape anything at all, except lies and death. Knowing God's will is key to salvation, and in O/T times, this rapture doctrine or one size fits all salvation from fake preachers, God is against: Ezekiel 13.20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly." Please read the whole chapter, it's about them false teachers. Acts 10.42 "And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he Which was ordained of God to be the judge of quick and dead. John 5.22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son:" God's unstoppable change is for all things, heaven; earth; people and time. We see this in more places than one, like: First Corinthians 15.52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. please notice in verse 51 that, all will be changed. Another place we see the same power of God working is: 2nd Thessalonians 2.8 "And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" Judgment has happened here, and His feet are not yet on the ground. Alot of diffrent things are happening at the same time: Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints," The subject of Revelation 20 is the devil, the pit, and those that choose to follow death. After a thousand years, him and his friends will be no more. I like: Hebrews 2.14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of the flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" and: 12.29 "For our God is a consuming fire." Did any of this help? Loving God is good

Sure, the gulf with the rich man and Lazarus is found in Luke chapter 16. And judgment hasn't happened yet, so nobody is in the lake of fire. Or were you refering to something diffrent? I thought that I gave scripture showing that God is against the rapture already, but please, ask a more direct question so I can give a better answer.

Everyone on both sides of the gulf, will return with Christ (this is when all things change) to the earth for judgment.

Hi Shiloh, good thread topic. I don't see a rapture in scripture, in fact, we read in Ezekiel 13.18-21 quite the oppsite. The whole chapter is talking about bad prophets/teachers. Remember what God told Adam: "...: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3.19 Also we find agreement with this in Ecclesiastes 11.6-7 that when we die, the flesh body goes to the earth, and the breath of life body goes back to God. These are only a few places in scripture that disagree with a rapture, but there are others as well.

Someone put ("Sermond on the mound" by Michael O' Connor) a small, easy reading book in my hands the other day, it was funny with some good serious points in it. However on pg. #44: "He took Saul-an angry, despicable murderer on the road to Damascus-broke him, humbled him, and molded him into a man named Paul, friend and apostle to Jesus, lover and preacher of the word." Which I disagree with, and encourage anyone to read: Acts 22.20; saying something diffrent in my bible. Other than that, it's a good baseball book and I liked it.

Hi Fraught, using your favorite dictionary look at the words definition, it should say somthing like: Believing without proof. I also believe that all people use some form of faith. And love part, just look around you. Good thread topic, thanks.

Hello nebula and all, thanks for letting me join this web site.