renren

Hmmm....I could be wrong, but am detecting a bit of defensiveness, meaning my wording may not have been as ideal as I'd have liked. Sorry, if that's the case. I never said with any solid conviction that you would have needed to go through a harsh divorce to have a legitimate perspective. Instead, what I stated was I simply wondered if that's the case, because, with very few exceptions, those most critical (I don't mean outright condemning necessarily) of divorce have not gone through it, that's all. Therefore the question in my mind. Regarding your following assertions about not 'needing' to have experienced the ills you listed, that's true. Yet, it's also often true that those who have gone through such are in a far stronger position to provide adequate counsel and be able to see the other side of the coin. For these very people have, in their experience, had the viewpoint of both sides. Again, not saying it's mandatory, but experience tells me that those who endure such have their eyes opened in such a way as to have a more valuable perspective. There is, of course, no such "rule" that works in all cases. As to being completed in Christ, there is no doubt that having Jesus in your life in a major way fills a lot of otherwise empty territory. Obviously, we can agree on that, period. I would add, however, that for many, God gave man an inherent yearning for companionship of the opposite sex. Know you recall Genesis, where despite man being in a perfect, sinless environment with close and undeterred fellowship with God Himself, the Lord deemed it "Not good for the man to be alone." As Josh McDowell, great Christian apologist stated, "that's amazing," in light of all that the first man had set up in his favor. Again, not trying to denigrate your position, just simply stating others may have perspectives that are their own, and just as valid. You may well feel the same way. Bert i totally agree with everything you said but i believe if we as christians sought to be complete in Christ then there would be way less divorce and remarriage. Again i say all divorce is not wrong but most can be prevented if men and women stop putting pressure on their partners to be perfect and to make them happy. There is only one perfect and that is Jesus who gives fullness of joy. The only point that I dont agree with fully is this I would add, however, that for many, God gave man an inherent yearning for companionship of the opposite sex. Know you recall Genesis, where despite man being in a perfect, sinless environment with close and undeterred fellowship with God Himself, the Lord deemed it "Not good for the man to be alone." As Josh McDowell, great Christian apologist stated, "that's amazing," in light of all that the first man had set up in his favor. I understand where you are coming from but I believe that Jesus has given us a higher calling. Adam and Eve in Genesis is not like what Jesus has in store for us now. when He comes back its not to restore how it was in Eden. We will be going to heaven with Him and we will be like the angels. Mark 12:22-25 22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. So yes i agree we all have that longing for companionship as you said BUT that companion does not complete us. We are perfect and complete in Christ and the sooner people understand that and live by that more marriages will thrive and divorce will decrease significantly among christians. Thats just my view on things.

Renren, While I applaud you big-time in feeling deeply satisfied with your life as a single, I still do wonder if you wouldn't have a different take on this subject if you had experienced the agony of a divorce, especially on the receiving end. (I will clarify that no party is likely absolved of all guilt, because it takes two--both in the good and the bad. However, sometimes one party is, by and large, much more "guilty") So if i went through a bad divorce then i could not possibly be happy as a single? I would have to remarry? Lets make it clear.....I never said all divorce is wrong. What I did say is that people need to stop looking for men and women to complete them. And BE complete in Christ. And i dont need to have aids to counsel a person with aids. I dont need to have cancer to counsel a person with cancer I dont need to have been raped to counsel someone who was raped. And the list goes on.

I believe the answer to this is studying the seal of salvation the : Holy Spirit. Let us look at this scripture Ephesians 1:12-14 (King James Version) 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. So the seal of the Holy Spirit was given because of belief/faith. If we read Romans Chap4 we see that righteousness was always by Faith. Is it not possible that the seal can be lost/taken/deactivated through unbelief? Let's see Romans 11:17-24 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! If God did not spare Israel because of their unbelief, would He spare us Gentiles for ours? So i believe that a person can be saved and sealed through faith/belief in Jesus and a person can also be lost and unsealed through unbelief The belief that once caused the seal to be upon them is now gone. When a person stops believing in Jesus they no longer have the perfect imputed righteousness of Christ and so the Holy Spirit can no longer dwell in them. The only reason the Holy Spirit can dwell in us is through the imputed covering of righteouness Jesus' blood gives us without it He cannot dwell in us. Now some may argue and say well the person was never sealed to begin with?? But what does the scripture say?? The scripture says that we were once wild...... we were grafted in by faith (and also because of Isreal's unbelief) and connected to the root(Jesus) but we must continue in His kindess otherwise you will be cut off . So yes a person can once be saved by faith in Jesus and be lost by unbelief. Why is this important?? Because in the last days there will be false doctrines and false christs. Matthew 24 4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect

My take on this topic is that the power and authority is in the name of Jesus. Paul was not present in the room when Jesus made the statements but He was able through Christ to do many miracles. Also, what are we to make of these scriptures? Luke 9:49-51 (King James Version) 49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version) 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I believe the power is in the name of Jesus. I also believe that the same power is available to us here today, to all christians that are willing to totally surrender to Jesus, give everything over to Him and walk in the Spirit. But, and there is always a but, I really am grieved by all of these preachers that profess to be able to do all of these things because it just doesnt sit right in my Spirit sometimes. Is miracles and financial properity all that matters these days? What about reship with Jesus, carrying our cross being and learning to set our hearts on things above. I believe that we all have different gifts and abilities but at the end of the day we all can pray and God answers prayers according to His will. To the people who left the service in a wheelchair or who left still sick...... is everyone really supposed to be healed? Is it that absolutely no believer should die from sickness? Isnt this world temporary and this body temporary? Also Jesus raised Lasarus from the dead. Is it His will to raise everyone from the dead? But He did it at that point in time for a specific purpose. I believe Jesus is soverign, for those who He wants to heal He will heal, for those who He doesnt He will give the grace and strength to deal with whatever comes their way. It is all for His purpose and will. Whoever Jesus wants to use to accomplish His purpose let it be done. I do believe that Jesus can and will use people today to accomplish whatever He wants to accomplish. Let's all be open to the move of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit and learn to Walk in the Spirit regardless of circumstances.

The issue I have addressed is the idea of re-marriage. There are sins that we should not do. That is a given. I do not think JESUS intended this to be a statement against re-mariage but rather a statement of the results of divorce. I am convinced HE doesn't intend for anyone to have to suffer through life alone, or in a bad marriage, as some kind of criminal life sentence for making a mistake. Lol suffer through life alone?? Criminal life sentence?? Well it depends on where you draw your joy and strenght from. Paul was in some pretty bad situtaions but i dont think he suffered through life alone or that the felt that he was serving some criminal life sentence for his past sins.(and by the way i think paul was single) If a person's joy and hope comes from who they are married to, then by all means we should divorce and remarry until we find the 'perfect' one (which does not exist). But we as christians should know that marriage is just a temporary thing in the big scheme of things and so is our life here on earth. like Paul said he counts it all as naught..... So what exactly are we christians divorcing and remarring for? What are we looking for in marriage? To be complete? To be fulfilled?? Yes He wants us to have a wonderfull life...... but that does not depend on our circumstances.... enjoying life is based solely on intimate rship with Jesus. People can always find reasons to marry and remarry but i think scripture is clear about such matters so this is all i have to say on the matter. People will use the word to scrath their itch but Jesus is God and He alone can judge. Maybe im a bit radical when it comes to my views on marriage and remarriage. Im single, Im complete in Christ ,totally satisfied and never alone. Lets all set our hearts in Him and let Him be our only Hope.

In the scriptures i quoted i do not see that as and explanation of the results for divorce......... Matthew 5:38-39 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. What was Jesus explaining here???? the results of revenge??? Or was He stating the old testament way and the new testament way?? Just as He did here... 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[a] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. I think divorce is wrong for any other reason that stated in the bible...and the bible is clear.... let us strive for the high calling of God and not use grace as our free ticket to do what we want.

Yes i do agree that it is not about legalities but the bible clearly states that there is right and wrong. As christians i think we need to go back to the word and see what the bible says is right and wrong. Too many people use this 'we are not under the law but under grace' as an excuse to live by their emotions and desires instead of by the Word. I am not disputing the love of Christ and the gift of grace. I know ppl. are human and we make mistakes..... but there is still right and wrong. Yes it is a fallen word and yes we have forgiveness through Christ.....that still does not mean that there is no wrong and right...if there was no wrong and right then there would be no need for forgiveness. So i am not disputing grace and forgiveness....... i am clearly stating the standards that are outlined in the bible. Dont twist the bible then say we all have grace. Can i say ok we live in a fallen word so im going to have sex before marriage because we are under grace and its not about legalities???? No i cannot so fellow believes let us stop using God's gift of grace as an excuse to continue living by the flesh and emotions!!!!

'She would be ineligible to remarry, since technically, she was still legally bound to her husband' 'The husband, however, was free to marry again and to do this as much as he liked. That is why Moses required a divorce certificate to be given... so that the marriage was legally, fairly, and religiously terminated and the woman would be free to remarry and go on with life.' This again is incorrect... Matthew 19:8-10 (New International Version) 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." 10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." The man that you quoted from said that people mistake divorce and put away. But in Matthew which is it talking about?? Divorce or putting away? Either way, Don, that man you quoted from was INCORRECT in saying that 'The husband, however, was free to marry again and to do this as much as he liked.' The verse in Matthew did said that the husband would be committing adultery. 'anyone who divorces his wife.....and marries another woman commits adultery'. So even if in the text it was refering to putting away and not divorce it is the man that remarries is being called an adulterer. So this distinction between putting away(not giving the woman a copy of the divorce certificate) and divorce is obviously not relavant because either way Jesus is calling the MAN an adulterer. So whether or not the wife has a copy of the divorce papers is irrelavant. This seeks to suggest that whether it is putting away or divorce, once the person remarries its adultery. This person's teaching is obviously not biblical.

' He will not entrap us, or force us to stay in our own traps to uphold an institution. The institutions of our loving God are never more important than the people within them.' I totally disagree with this statement. 1Corinthians 7:12-14 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. In the verses above, there is one saved person and one unsaved person. What is God saying to the saved person?? To uphold the institution of marriage and pray for the salvation of their husband. If the unsaved person wants divorce then fine... they are unsaved and know no better...but to the saved person He is sayin you know better..... do not divorce. Matthew 19:7-9 7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Ezekiel 36:26 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. The man that you quoted on based his entire argument on the fact that God meant marrige to be lifelong but because we live in a imperfect world divorce is not unlawful. It is clear that God under the old dispensation (Moses' Law) allowed divorce because of the hardness of the people's hearts. But under the New dispensation (new testament) we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us and that removes our hard heart and gives us a new heart. I think that too many christians want to live by their emotions and so use the bible to suit them. IMO the only grounds for divorce is unfaithfulness(even this can be mended), if an unsaved partner no longer wants to be with his saved partner and physical abuse.

Matthew 5-31:33 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[a] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. This scripture is clear to me and i think that alot of christians try to use the bible to justify their actions. It is clear from the above verses that long ago under moses law divorce was acceptable once you give your wife a certificate of divorce.... but now under the new dispensation divorce is not acceptable except for unfaithfulness, and even where that is concerned, the marriage can still be mended. If you read the entire chapter you would see Jesus making a comparison between moses' law and what He came to teach us. Humans do not like commitment and will use God's word to suit them but the scripture is clear. Even on the issue of a saved person being married to an unsaved person it is clear what should be done.

Amen...i totally agree I feel the reason that so many people feel burdened by the 'rules' of Christianity is because Christians try to impose their convictions concerning grey areas on other persons. If God's convicts you about a certain grey area then He will give you the grace and strenght you need to obey Him. If you now go and burden another person with your conviction it may become a stumbling block... because they would find if impossible to keep....... because God would not give them the grace they need to obey...because the convition was not for them in the first place!!!!!! Lets us all keep our eyes on Jesus and seek His purpose for our lives as individuals through intimate relationship with Jesus!!! Peace and Grace to you all Thanks for this great post.