Servant54

Who knows..I do know we are not to add to God's word and that is exactly what they did..they "helped" God. I generally like NAS..I used it as a new convert. I now have a New KJV, it has large letters and I am to the age where I need large letters or cheaters. I got it at a second hand store for a buck or two and that is why I use that version Any of the normal translations are great for just reading, and of course having a Greek and Hebrew bible help if there is a dispute on a word or phrase.

John came not drinking what? Jesus came drinking what? Again, the abstinence side of the argument has shown "by many convincing proofs* " that wine in the bible can be either alcoholic or not alcoholic, but it seems you want to ignore this evidence and continue to press the issue that Jesus drank alcohol. So I will have to just resubmit our proof that wine can be grape juice. Here are some scripture which talk about wine not being alcoholic... Isaiah 65;8 speaks of wine in clusters (tiyrosh) Isaiah 16;10 speaks of treading wine in presses (yayin) Pro 3;10 presses burst with new wine (tiyrosh) Jeremiah 48:33 here wine(yayin) fails from the winepresses Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain Zech9:14 grain shall make the young men thrive, new wine makes the young women thrive (tiyrosh) Also remember the parable of the wine skins having "wine" that was still in the beginning working stages turn alcoholic... ..not a finished product. What more can I say......

Now you're using mental gymnastics. New wine could accidentally become alcoholic? lol. If what you're saying is true the men wouldn't be saying "they are full of new wine", they'd be saying "the wine of these men became intoxicating". Why do you call the wine 'sweet'? Where did that come from? New wine was probably easier and cheaper to come by, as opposed to aged wine. New wine is not grape juice, it is wine... it is intoxicating. That one is easy. Jesus made it very clear. He said "one man one woman". As well, in every instance of the OT multiple marriage situations, there were problems BECAUSE of the extra wives. But most important is that Jesus made things clear! Which goes back to my question still unanswered...... Did you ever wonder, with about 230 references to the word wine why did God not make it obvious that if He wanted us not to touch it, why, with soooo many mentions, did he not even mention that we should abstain? Why not make it obvious like He did with John the Baptist or Samson? No one has commented on this although I've tried to make the point many times. Why is there no single outright admonishment against taking a little wine? Please... God had 230 chances to do this and didn't do it. Why do you think that is? And tons to show it good, but you will always ascribe grape juice to those verses, right? Even though the word 'juice' was readlily available, as was 'not fermented' or 'not alcoholic. You're welcome. C If you are convinced in your mind that new wine is alcohol every time it is mentioned in scripture than I can no long help you understand my position. Here are some scripture that talk about wine not being alcoholic... Isaiah 65;8 speaks of wine in clusters (tiyrosh)..... still on the vine Isaiah 16;10 speaks of treading wine in presses.... (yayin) prefermented ..just stepped on Pro 3;10 presses burst with new wine (tiyrosh)...... just made Jeremiah 48:33 here wine(yayin) fails from the winepresses ....just made again Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain....infants would die if given alcoholic wine..if you could get them to drink it Zech9:14 grain shall make the young men thrive, new wine makes the young women thrive (tiyrosh) ..... kid thrive from alcoholic drink? My aunt used to make alcoholic wine from Welchs grape juice..leave it out to long and it will begin to turn alcoholic. D] I know exactly how you feel...I have listed Proverbs 23;31 where it talks about not even looking on the wine when it is red and swirls in the cup and no one wants to acknowledge it as being a legitimate scripture teaching us that alcohol is something to stay away from.

Man........... You say....... "You sidestepped the issue, so I will ask again. Are those who participate in communion, sinning?" First I would like you to address the context of Proverbs 23:31" Do not look on the wine when it is red swirls in the cup" Is this not a commandment not to even look upon alcoholic wine? (ie avoid it)

Wow. Again, interesting, but not historically accurate. Your assumption that it was only certain "backslidden" Jews that served wine at wedding feasts is entirely inaccurate. Seems to me that one must choose to believe that Jesus purposefully introduced unfermented wine at the wedding in Cana in order to reconcile themselves to the fact that He performed His first miracle (An honor in and of itself to the bride and groom) amidst a bunch of intoxicated people (Which they were not in any case). The Lord Jesus was real, a real man with a heart for all people. He would not have changed tradition for the sake of Himself, He participated in a regular wedding with regular sinners, and rejoiced with them; and He turned ordinary water into the best wine possible. ....as He was known for doing. Read: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/Ea...gi?number=T3816 And here's Charles Spurgeon's commentary on the issue, which I agree with completely: "do not think that I should do any good if I were to enter upon the discussion as to what sort of wine our Lord Jesus made on this occasion. It was wine, and I am sure it was very good wine, for he would produce nothing quite but the best. Was it wine such as men understand by that word now? It was wine; but there are very few people in this country who ever see, much less drink, any of that beverage. That which goes under the name of wine is not true wine, but a fiery, brandied concoction of which I feel sure that Jesus would not have tasted a drop. The fire-waters and blazing spirits of modern wine manufacturers are very different articles from the juice of the grape, mildly exhilarating, which was the usual wine of more sober centuries. As to the wine such as is commonly used in the East, a person must drink inordinately before he would become intoxicated with it. It would be possible, for there were cases in which men were intoxicated with wine; but, as a rule, intoxication was a rare vice in the Savior's times and in the preceding ages. Had our great Exemplar lived under our present circumstances, surrounded by a sea of deadly drink, which is ruining tens of thousands, I know how he would have acted. I am sure he would not have contributed by word or deed to the rivers of poisonous beverages in which bodies and souls are now being destroyed wholesale. The kind of wine which he made was such that, if there had been no stronger drink in the world, nobody might have thought it necessary to enter any protest against drinking it. It would have done nobody any hurt, be sure of that, or else Jesus our loving Savior would not have made it."(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit The Waterpots at Cana, A Sermon (No. 1556) Delivered by C. H. SPURGEON, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington) I am a little confused. Spurgeon and myself would seem to be on the same side of the argument just differing in our opinion of the wedding..and I think what Spurgeon says could be entirely right. If you agree with Spurgeon you can not say the wine of today is equal with the wine of the wedding. The case for drinking wine today falls apart. What I am saying is if that society drank near beer with a .5% alcohol that would take a case to get you drunk, you can not use that as proof it is ok to drink wine today at 14% alcohol that could get you drunk with a couple of glasses. You are right the Jews may not have been backslid that was only a loose theory I held. (I mean backslid by drinking, not totally backsid) ==== Spurgeon goes on to say "I am sure he would NOT have contributed by word or deed to the rivers of poisonous beverages in which bodies and souls are now being destroyed wholesale." ==== Again, Spurgeon sounds to be say Jesus made grape juice..or something VERY close to it " The kind of wine which he made was such that, if there had been no stronger drink in the world, nobody might have thought it necessary to enter any protest against drinking it. It would have done nobody any hurt, be sure of that, or else Jesus our loving Savior would not have made it."(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpt) THANK YOU I will stand corrected..I believe this is much closer to the truth than my theory..I just wished there was more proof available.

Ovedya said... With regard to the wedding at Cana, learn some more about the Jewish wedding feast, how it's conducted typically, and you will find that it was not only alcoholic wine, but the best of the best of alcoholic wine. I would be surprised to find a serious respected commentary claim that it was non-alcoholic. ++++++++++ I do not doubt that modern backslid messiah rejecting Jews do all sorts of things at weddings and no doubt serve alcohol. I do not think they are a standard for us however. I also believe ancient Jews also some messiah rejecting and backslid did all sorts of things at weddings including serving alcohol. I also believe Jesus did something different and did not serve alcohol to those at the wedding. Maybe he broke with tradition...He was know for that Remember the story of the wine skins..I believe it is the key to what happened at the wedding. One drinking the old wine and thinking it is better. They were wrong remember? The new wine is Jesus teaching and the old wine is that which the Pharisees offered, you have been drink Pharisee wine you do not want the new sweet wine that Jesus does offer. That is in Luke 5 37-39

"It makes sense to me, but I think this topic requires SERIOUS study of Hebrew, Greek, culture, and context before it can be decided 100%." I would agree, but you have to believe something in the mean time. I will be out on the streets tomorrow and I will share what I know now(about salvation etc) and later I will correct some of that and share with greater understanding. We all are a work in progress..I marvel at what I have learned in the 35 years I have been saved and feel like I am still in preschool in my understanding. Then there is the study of the original languages and many things will have to be reevaluated in that light..we are find much wrong with translations these days and much new is coming to light. I do feel I have figure out most of this alcohol debate and I see things that prove abstinence even more so but I do not have a good enough handle on them to bring them. I see no teaching on them I can copy and I have been too lazy to study them myself. God Bless Everyone and thank you all for sharing, I have enjoyed this.

Anyone want to answer this? If consuming alcohol is a sin, are people sinning when they participate in communion? do you mean are they really sinning in the eyes of God? or are you asking a rhetorical question about whether they are sinning in the eyes of some who are involved in this debate? I want one of the individuals who claims that consuming alcohol is a sin to answer my question. Sorry I took so long to respond as one of the abstainers. There is an amazing truth behind communion. Communion is to be partaken with no leaven(like Pasover) in the bread because Jesus knew no sin. Leaven is a type of sin. There was no sin in Him, so we make unleaven bread to remember Him by. The bread is His body. The wine is a type of His blood. Again He was sinless so we would drink a "sinless" blood or a wine that has not seen corruption. So we should use non alcoholic wine(grape juice) for communion. Alcoholic wine has undergone corruption the sugars rotting into alcohol. Typology is important to God, He wants us to do what He has commanded .. And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams ======= For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. That is also why I believe the wine at the Cana wedding Jesus made was non alcoholic because it was a type of and started His teaching ministry and His teachings were pure, like the wine .

What exactly is meant by the term "new" wine? The word in Hebrew is Tryosh. According to what I have studied it is newly squeezed juice, it might be several months old but not alcoholic under normal circumstances. The term "wine"(Heb Yayin) could be alcoholic or not alcoholic it is a generic term for any beverage of the grape. New wine is only mentioned once in the NT, it is implied in the wine skins parable. Wine in the NT is "oinos" in Grk.

Wine or grape juice and why? Notice the word 'new"? Do you think this means grape juice can be bad? B] Wine or grape juice? Notice the word new? C] Wine or grape juice? D] No one has commented on this although I've tried to make the point many times. Why is there no single outright admonishment against taking a little wine? Please... God had 230 chances to do this and didn't do it. Why do you think that is? A] Wine here was alcoholic . Why was new wine mentioned ALSO? The best comment I have heard is that new wine was thought of as a commodity..like grain, oil, wealth mainly. Wealth, women and booze are the three things (maybe power also) that take a man away from the Lord. If both wine and new wine were both alcoholic why repeat that they both take away the heart..it makes no sense. B] Again there is no reason to mention both new and old if the point is they are alcoholic. New wine cut off means the economy/prosperity will be cut off. C] Again why new wine, why not just say wine....perhaps new wine could accidentally become alcoholic if left out too long and those who watched thought the 120 got into some. This statement does not make sense if everyone drank alcoholic wine all the time. Perhaps the knew this sect only drank new/sweet wine. Can you make sense of this from your position? D] Yes I did wonder. I wonder during a debate with a polygamist. So many references to good men having plural wives and so few scriptures to prove it was wrong..I really felt weak...I felt like David against Goliath but without the confidence. I actually think there are tons of things in the bible that only those who will search it out will learn..that is the way it is written..I am totally in awe of its complexity. Just amazing. The alcohol debate had tons of stuff to show that drinking is wrong, but I think for most people it is a heart problem not a lack of scripture problem. Again thanks for the time you put into your questions. I enjoy the challenge and believe it is good to get the information out.

Prohibition hangover says... All wine in the bible is alcoholic.... Isaiah 65;8 speaks of wine in clusters (tiyrosh) --- Here we have alcoholic wine in clusters ? Must be a hybrid (sorry I had too ) Isaiah 16;10 speaks of treading wine in presses (yayin)---- here we have wine already fermented as it is being treaded ? (another hybrid) Pro 3;10 presses burst with new wine (tiyrosh) ---again this is fermented? Jeremiah 48:33 here wine(yayin) fails from the winepresses ----fermented? Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain ----Kids drinking alcoholic wine and calling out for it? Zech9:14 grain shall make the young men thrive, new wine makes the young women thrive (tiyrosh)----- young women drinking alcohol and it causes them to thrive? OVedya..your "authoritative author" does not know his scripture or he would not have made such statements. Back to the drawing board. Read 30 such articles for and against drinking alcohol on the internet and you will see many of these foolish statements debunked.

Ovedya... Go back in the discussion and read all the historical proof for grape juice being available all year long.( The internet is full of these quotes) Many historians record grape syrups and such that were stored and reconstituted later. Here is one.. http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/teach/bib&wine.html Again, if you can make grape jam by boiling down grapes, you have a product that will keep even in hot weather. You can add hot water and stir it and have grape juice any time of year. Here is another though..David ate raisins (they store well) King David was given "100 raisin cakes and 200 fig cakes." 1 Samuel 25:18,

Oh it was proven that it was a sin..Pro 23;31 actually since then no one has proven it in not sin. (If you do not believe this scripture forbids alcohol then try explaining it.) Now we all believe it is sin to be drunk and actually the practice of drunkenness will send one to hell. That is an important fact in this discussion. I am trying to change attitudes and bring folks out of a sleep that the church has been in concerning this subject. PS I have not forgot answering other earlier questions..I was just coming in out of the rain a minute..back to yard work..the rain quit.

If it can be scripturally proven it is wrong to drink , then one could judge someone who who does such. Just like someone who commits any other sin like say blasphemy,cheating etc. We are commanded to..(IITim 4:2 Preach the word,convince,rebuke,exhort etc) When I say judge I mean like believing someone is wrong, not judging someone eternally. You have to believe the sugar jar is tipped over before you proceed to right it. I must add that there is a time and a place to share truth and also an attitude that we are supposed to have of humility to come under people who have fallen and lift them up..less we also sin in the process of helping others. I want to be careful myself as not to sound haughty or sound like a know it all. I am trying to change peoples attitudes mostly..I am not so terribly concerned with someone over 50 taking a drink once a year(even though I believe it wrong)..I am mainly concerned as to how they relate to our youth and the image they represent by being a drinker and saying drinking is ok. They are on the wrong political side of the debate and their words and actions give our youth the wrong impression.

A teaching on making merry with wine. The present day idea of many Christian's is anyone who drank and made merry or was made merry in the bible was under the influence of an intoxicant. The alcohol made them merry. So the wine mentioned in the text along side the merriment must have been alcoholic wine. Is there a case for believing that plain grape juice, the blood of the grape in its purest form could be the reason their hearts were gladdened or made merry? To find out we go to the scriptures and the first story we have is Joseph and his brothers eating in Egypt and it says " So they drank and were merry with him" Ben got five time the servings as his brothers. Although we see Ben getting five time what his brothers did, it does not specify whether they drank alcoholic wine or plain grape juice. This scripture is an example of many in the OT..it is just not conclusive either way what they were drinking, alcoholic type wine or grape juice type wine. Lets go to the second scripture and see if it changes the readers mind about the first scripture and perhaps others. In Judges 9:27 it says "they gathered grapes from the vineyards and trod them and MADE MERRY." ......"they ate and drank and cursed Abimelech" Fourteen verses back it says "But the vine says to them "Should I cease my NEW WINE Which CHEERS both God and men? I would say it would be pretty easy to see they drank the fresh juice from the grapes they trod and made merry with it and that the new wine spoken of here is just fresh grape juice. So these are the first couple scriptures in a bible of many scripture which talk about the subject of wine and merriment, and I believe they set the tone for most of the OT scriptures. There maybe exceptions to this, but of course alcoholic wine too makes the heart merry (Noah and Lot were no doubt merry before their embarrassments happened.) My point is only that it does not always HAVE to be alcoholic wine that makes the heart merry in biblical accounts , non alcoholic grape juice wine can also make the heart merry. We must also remember that in many bible stories God's people were very backslid, so what they did or did not do is not a presidence for New Testament, modern day saints. __

Wine or grape juice and why? B] Wine or grape juice and why? C} Wine or grape juice and why? D] Wine or grapejuice and why? E] Wine or grapejuice and why? A] new wine was a staple, like oil or grain so it was wonderful to have increase of staples (non alcoholic) B] this speaks of grape juice I believe, wine harvest was thrilling for them, to have new fresh wine. Other places the bible refers people making merry with alcoholic wine. (See next post about Merry) C] I already answered this earlier but will do so again.. There are two cases 1}Perishing and 2} Heavy heart. It says to give them wine/strong drink "SO THAT THEY MAY FORGET". It implies they are so drunk they do not remember. These are extreme cases like some wounded in battle that is dying in great pain..give him alcohol to knock him out..that is God's mercy. We do this now days with drugs. The second case is a woman perhaps who's three young sons have died in a battle..she has been up three days stricken with grief and they give her alcohol to put her out and let her sleep..finally. Any other interpretation would hurt moderate drinkers case, in that you can not be drinking to forget as an every day event..these are medical cases. D] Solomon in Ecclesiastes is backslid. He is most likely drinking alcohol and going against plain text of scripture for Kings not to drink,,,,and this is why...he is giving wrong counsel. Here he says all sorts of wrong things 2;12 I turned, 2:17 I hated life, 2:20I turned my heart. Read Song of Solomon where he is not backslid and says "drink deep friends (5:1)(grape juice or alcohol?), here he is typifying Jesus the greater Solomon and offering salvation to all who will come to the wedding..no extra charge..I was getting off subject preaching . E)I believe Ecc 9:7 is just grape juice. (see next post) Sol is giving us advise he himself DID NOT FOLLOW 9:9 He did not live with THE wife, he had many and it destroyed him like his wine did. yes I see Jer. 23:9 and He says I am LIKE a drunk man..yes this is alcoholic wine...I am not sure why you bring up this scripture other than to prove there is alcoholic wine mentioned in scripture..something we all agree on. Ok that is it for today..three hours and a visit from the neighbor

It still doesn't say don't drink it. It says don't gaze upon it. I can't recall ever gazing upon red wine anyway, so I'm okay. Again, with 230 references to the word 'wine', why isn't there at least one, where it tells us not to drink it? And I can't imagine ever using the phrase "It is against my religion" That phrase is for Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc, etc, etc. N We could ask that question about a bunch of bible topics..it is a good question. Like whether it is ok to have more than one wife..all those OT patriarchs having multiplied wives and only a few scriptures dealing with it. It is frustrating but that is how it is. One reason might be so we would not hit new converts over the head with it and give them time to com out of a worldly life style. The Berians would not have been noted as noble if everything was listed like the ten commandments Remeber the word of God is not a law book..it is here a little and there a little that we get a whole truth...amen? "It is against my religion" was tongue in cheek

I didn't make it up. I checked on Biblegateway.com and many translation use the word "aged". I am quite sure that according to some scholars out there, the word 'aged' is appropriate, otherwise the word 'aged' would not be used. Do you think if you have one glass of wine you will become a mocker? Is that your experience? Yes, I realize someone believed they had aged wine so they added a word "AGED" We do not want to be in a position to "help God" with His word, if "Aged" is not in the Hebrew than we should not add it..period. No one glass of wine will not mock you..but no one has ever been mocked until they have that first glass now have they? So in conclusion "Aged" is a mistranslation.

Artsylady what are you doing to me? I was supposed to have a day off today between work yesterday and street evangelism tomorrow and now you have given me all this rebuttal work! I will answer all of your claims, I have heard/read them before and there is an excellent answer for ALL of them..it just might take a few days as it would probably advantageous that I do some work around the yard and such in the next few days. You have brought many great points and have obviously been studying/read...something we all need to do more about what we believe. I admire you for that, maybe next time you can be on my side of the debate Bare in mind I am not trying to win some theological argument or the sake of being right or whatever, I believe there is a major area of misunderstanding we all have had concerning this topic in the bible. It is huge like a huge ship and it takes time to turn the ship so it is headed in the right direction. Our youth need to know this truth,that is why I studied it out and found answers. I will not argue doctrines for arguing sake. I want to see lives changed when brought truth. God bless everyone here..we all want truth..amen? Lord we call upon you to reveal YOUR truth..open us up..keep us humble.

God says not to drink alcohol at all? Where? Like Pro 23:31 Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it goes down smoothly. (Wine get its red from fermentation) The next time you see red wine in a cup/glass repeat this COMMANDMENT and tell the person offering the cup " no thank you", I am not allowed to look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup. Its against my religion.

I would buy the boards for as cheap as a could like 50 cents or 1 dollar at the local swap meet. I would then proceed to destroy them right in front of the vendor. Not in a judgmental way, I did not want the vendor to feel I was judging them..just the board itself. Several people would look on and I would always get a cheer from someone. I figured it cost me about a nickel each to impress on peoples minds not to play. I just asked my 24 year old if he remembers me doing that when he was young and he told me about each time. My three boys were home schooled. It left an impression. Yes, I realize it was a little over the top..I was younger then ,,we sure had fun at that swap meet ..it is gone now. I might have to do it one more time when I have grand kids.

Quoting........ It's a poor translation in your opinion and the opinion of others that are like-minded, although I doubt they are trained Biblical or language scholars. So you are saying they should have inserted the word "new" and made a mistake and wrote the very opposite word "old"? In any case, you can find references to 'new wine' in a negative connotation too. +++++++++++ It is not "a poor translation"..it is "a mistranslation". No they should speak where the bible speaks and keep silent where the bible is silent. That is the principle. Your whole idea about this scripture giving credence to your belief based on the word "aged" and it simply has been made up. ========== Quoting... No matter how hard one might try, you can't logically translate the word wine to grape juice here, or in many other scriptures, it just won't work. A banquet of 'aged grapejuice"? I don't think so. ==== We just have wine on lees...period. We have no aged wine here. It appeared to be a great argument it just did not hold up to scrutiny. You built a case for your position and it fell apart I have done the same thing in the past. I have a great argument for my side of the debate based on the NAS version of the bible I just can not use it because it is not what the scripture really says. I just can't get past God serving up something He calls "A MOCKER" in the Millennium. (Pro 20:1)

Quote.... "Titus 1:7 Since an overseer[a] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain." ---------------------- This was quoted earlier as a proof that we are only commanded not to be drunk, for the scripture teaches an elder/overseer is not to be drunk. This is a poor translation..think about it..are we ALL not to be drunk? The actual Greek found in two scripture is "given to wine" or "alone side of wine" The Greek indicates an elder is not supposed to drink..it is a qualification we all are to aspire to. Amen? Now in Asia Minor where this was to take place you had a very worldly crowd getting saved and so they would get saved and still be drinkers and getting drunk, but we see eventually they were to become "elder material" even if they never became an elder. Amen? ++++++++ Again a exhortation to not murder in scripture does not mean we can be mean spirited or say hate..just like an exhortation to not be drunk does not mean we can drink. One does not negate the other. Have a great day........