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Greetings damo1, My post above was mostly directed towards Unitarianism where Jesus is God. My question regarding John 3:16 is still an important one. What did our salvation cost God the Father that is the measure of His great love for the world? If our savior is a created being, then our salvation came at not cost to God and it is easily conceivable that God could blast us all to oblivion and start over with a new savior, a new heaven and a new earth. There is no evidence that God loves us. It is not just the verse, John 3:16 as a doctrine that is important, it is the very nature of our salvation and eternal relationship with our Creator. Doesn

Perhaps you did not read my particular posts in the topic. They are Posts #76; 78; 80; 82; 86; 87; and 89. They are all pretty short. I don't blame any one for not understanding them because I am not good at expressing myself but please indicate anywhere that I have been guilty of what you accuse me of, i.e. saying anyone is going to hell or making myself their judge. If you look at the most recently closed thread on the trinity, you will find this question was asked there by some else. The idea is that if Christ were the only person of the Godhead, then by praying to God, he would be praying to Himself, which I think anyone would agree, doesn't make much sense. If Christ were or is the only person of the Godhead it raises many, many questions. The other possibility is that Jesus was not God but some lesser created being in which case he would to pray to God in exactly the same way we do. Unitarianism comes in both flavors. I do not disregard Unitarianism simply because it is not the form of doctrine I was taught. I examine doctrines to either prove or disprove them to my own satisfaction. It is my opinion that Unitarianism is false (in either flavor) for many reasons. I am not trying to educate or preach to anyone but simply examine my own beliefs by examining those of others. So the question I asked regarding John 3:16 was the first one that comes to mind and is most certainly fatal to Unitarianism IMO. If Jesus Christ is one and the same person as God the Father, then what did God give that so expressed His love to the world? The concept of sacrificial giving is so basic throughout scripture, the most profound example being Abraham offering Isaac, that what ever God gave had to have been at great sacrifice to Him self. The model is a father offering his son,

Would another hint help? It will give you a little more to think about anyway. It (the giving of the gift) can never be repeated. Under any circumstances. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, unless the word God should utterly fail. (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 9:26-28;1 Peter 3:18) Lacking the knowledge and relevance of God's gift, the Unitarian has no real security in his relationship with God. The first couple were Unitarians, they could not see any way that the Creator was bound to be truly honest with them. Eve was deceived into thinking that something good might be withheld from them and Adam could come up with no good reason why God could not be disobeyed. That is to say, there was no bond of love or trust between them, but he did love his wife enough to die for her or with her. Of course they changed their minds afterwords with further revelation. Job, on the other hand, did not curse God and die but endured great suffering because he knew that his Redeemer liveth and that one day He would stand upon the Earth. 1Peter 1:18-21 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Oh I see. So not only am I not a Christian according to some (because I cannot accept the common interpretation of the Trinity) but I am ignorant. Ah well I'm happy in knowing that the the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. I simply said that if you don't believe in the trinity, you can't answer the question because the Gift of God spoken of in John 3:16 can only be understood and have any meaning in the context of the Trinity in the traditional, Fundamentalist sense of the word, i.e.

This is pretty off topic and maybe a little beyond the scope of human understanding. The way that I see it is that our Creator is infinite in every way. The creation is attributed to all persons of the Trinity thus one can not be more or less than equal to the others, except as I said, they assume different roles for our benefit. Even in the body of Christ, we are many members, but one body so I think 1 Cor. 12 is useful reading and 1 Pet 5:5,

Life is a pretty good answer, if we are talking about mere creation because Adam had life. He also could have had eternal life, if he could have got past those angels with the flaming swords and got back to the tree of life. It is also true that Christ came to restore that life as John 1:4 says. The quantity of life is not worth much without quality though. It is manifestation of God's love through the Gift of His Son that gives life quality. So the question remains; what is the gift of God that manifests His love for the world? Let me give you a hint: If you don't believe in the Trinity, you can't answer this question. In which case the whole Bible melts down to a puddle of goo and Abraham was the biggest fool on the planet because he was willing to give more than the God who directed him.

Before the incarnation He was God Himself. It was He that appeared to Abraham, Moses in the burning bush, the soldier that encountered Joshua, and so on. He was the Word of God as John 1:1 declares and He was the Son the God. Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ, the Same yesterday, today and forever. He was and is the Creator. Hebrews 1:2 He is in every way, fully God. He is not just some manifest image or a figment, but is a fully self existent being

John 1:1 teaches us that the Word is eternal like God, He is in unity with God and He is God like God. Certainly they are equal but the progression of revelation in the scripture shows that they are separate identities and assume functions within the God head. Think of Abraham, Sarah and Isaac. Among themselves, they have separate identities, but to the servants, the word of one was as the word of them all. To mount Moriah, Abraham and Isaac walked together, Genesis 22:6 and it is repeated in verse 8 to show the importance of that event. Isaac did not know where they were going but he was in agreement that whatever had been told to his father is what they would do. There would be no rebellion. (See also Genesis 20:5) Isaac

While the trinity is a doctrinal fact, they can not be isolated as in

Cat. 4 by the time it reaches the North Pole?

This a story about storm victims that should make you smile. GULFPORT, Miss. - In an

The levees in California are for flood control. They don't serve the same function as the ones in NO. Unless the earthquake coincided with a very serious rainy season levee breaks would not have any effect. Except for Death Valley, which has no metropolitan cities, California is above sea level and they don't look UP to see river traffic.

That was Ivan that hit US coasts about three times. Wasn

I wonder how many butterflies it took to stir up that much dust.

And just think of the phone bill!

Three books that have impacted me a great deal are: The Problem of Pain C.S. Lewis The Pursuit of God A.W. Tozer The God Who is There Francis Schaeffer The last one I think is of great importance to Christians to today. If you have been at all struggling with the philosophy behind the new theology that is invading churches all over the country, this book will give you the tools to understand it better.

One person I listen to defines prayer as God's way of involving us in what He is already doing.

Well, I

Consider Abraham's trial in Gen. 22 or Job. God always knows the out come from the beginning. Our trials are not to increase His knowledge. Though the outcome is known by God, it is not known to Abraham or Job or us. Through our trials, the thing that is known to God, becomes known to us. His knowing, becomes our knowing. We come to know ourselves as He knows us and we know God also. That He is faithful and trustworthy. Many today think walking by faith is more like taking a leap off a ledge in the dark. It is not. Abraham had walked with God many years before he came to Gen 22. God had shown Himself trust worthy many times to Abraham. If I never had a problem, I'd never know that God could solve them. I'd never know what faith in God can do.

So has God made an exception in the case of Jacob? Is he a respecter of persons? Does he bend His commands when it suits His purpose?

I didn't see any one say to thank HIM for the answer. Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 1Jo 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. Or to praise HIM. For HE is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Well how do you apply that to JACOB dr.LUKE? Should there only be 2 tribes in Israel? Should he have never married Rachael after he was tricked? That is an interesting answer Leonard? Do you really believe that? I would give you that Paul's instructions you site were given that Church officers were to be models for the congregation, not unique to themselves. Ephesians 5 and 1 Cor. 7 are pretty clear. Jesus doesn't have two churches.

The NT clearly teaches one wife. No polygamy. Where did you get that Leonard?