lekh l'kha

See, none of that diminishes God's promises to Israel. The current earth will be renovated (not destroyed) but God's promises will not suddenly disappear with the current age we live in. The New Heavens and New Earth do not nullify God's promises to Israel. I realize you have taken great pains in your posts to make those promises appear as unimportant an meaningless as possible, but your endeavors are fruitless. Why would you say that? I have not posted very much on this thread, mainly just some scripture. Jesus IS the promise! What could be better than that? Are you somehow claiming that there is something better than Jesus? As long as we focus on Christ and His kingdom and not on this earth we are fine. But as scripture shows this earth is passing away, where is our treasure? Is our treasure in heaven or on this rotten sinful earth? How is any of that even relevant to the topic??? Did someone say there is a better promise than Christ??? No. We are discussing the promises God made to Israel and why they are not transferred to the Church. I find the whole topic stupid and trivial, generally a waste of time for believers. Transferred promises.., it sounds like we are arguing over who gets what from Christ? Who cares there is only one promise that matters and that is the promise of Christ to all believers, and indeed we are grafted on to this promise as it did indeed come through the Jew's I certainly do not deny that. What could the Church steal from Israel? There is one Body, One Spirit, One Baptism, what we do outside of THAT is not going to last anyway. Firstly, the theology that teaches that the church has replaced Israel brings the Holy Word of God which came to Abraham into question, and God calls this teaching a profanation of His Holy name in Ezekiel 36: 20. Secondly, those who have persecuted and hated Jews and Israel have justified their hatred and persecution using this exact theology. You may find the whole topic stupid and trivial, but the God Whom you serve does not. But don't you find the whole concept of who replaces who at its heart anti-Christian? Yes - so why do you teach it? Why do you teach that the Church has replaced Israel - especially since it goes against everything that's written in the Bible from God's covenant with Abraham onward? It denigrates the Word of God by implying that He is sneaky enough to make unsolicited promises to a human family which He has no intention of keeping with that same human family.

The racist errors propagated by the Roman Catholic Church and her sister churches over the past 1500 years does not change the truth that Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Judah clearly told His brothers of the flesh

Can you provide proof for your baseless notion? you provide ample proof with every post!?

You are such a drama queen

QUOTE (Smalcald @ Nov 20 2009, 10:49 PM) This was written in 1523, I think it relates and shows how long this discussion has been going on. "Our fools, the popes, bishops, sophists, and monks-crude asses' heads-have hitherto so treated the Jews that anyone who wished to be a good Christian would almost have to become a Jew. If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would have sooner become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and monkery. When the Jews t hen see that Judaism has such strong support in scripture, and that Christianity has become a mere babble without reliance on scripture, how can the possibly compose themselves and become right good Christians? I have myself heard from pious baptized Jews that if they had not in our day heard the Gospel they would have remained Jews under the cloak of Christianity for the rest of their days. For they acknowledge that they have never yet heard anything about Christ from those who baptized and taught them. I hope that if one deals in a kindly way with the Jews and instructs them carefully from Holy Scripture, many of them will become genuine Christians and turn again to the faith of their fathers, the prophets and patriarchs. They will only be frightened further away from it if their Judaism is so utterly rejected that nothing is allowed to remain and they are treated only with arrogance and scorn. If the apostles who were also Jews had dealt with us gentiles as we gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the gentiles. Since they dealt with us gentiles in such a brotherly fashion, we in our turn out to treat Jews in a brotherly manner in order that we might convert some of them. For even we ourselves are not yet all very far along, not to speak of having arrived." What theology made them think they had the right to treat the Jews in this way, smalcald? And what theology makes Christians churches think they have the right to get together to sign a document condemning the state of Israel and to support the Palestinian casue? I find it absolutely shocking that you can show what has been done to the Jews in the name of this replacement theoology and still say that you find the whole topic stupid and trivial.

See, none of that diminishes God's promises to Israel. The current earth will be renovated (not destroyed) but God's promises will not suddenly disappear with the current age we live in. The New Heavens and New Earth do not nullify God's promises to Israel. I realize you have taken great pains in your posts to make those promises appear as unimportant an meaningless as possible, but your endeavors are fruitless. Why would you say that? I have not posted very much on this thread, mainly just some scripture. Jesus IS the promise! What could be better than that? Are you somehow claiming that there is something better than Jesus? As long as we focus on Christ and His kingdom and not on this earth we are fine. But as scripture shows this earth is passing away, where is our treasure? Is our treasure in heaven or on this rotten sinful earth? How is any of that even relevant to the topic??? Did someone say there is a better promise than Christ??? No. We are discussing the promises God made to Israel and why they are not transferred to the Church. I find the whole topic stupid and trivial, generally a waste of time for believers. Transferred promises.., it sounds like we are arguing over who gets what from Christ? Who cares there is only one promise that matters and that is the promise of Christ to all believers, and indeed we are grafted on to this promise as it did indeed come through the Jew's I certainly do not deny that. What could the Church steal from Israel? There is one Body, One Spirit, One Baptism, what we do outside of THAT is not going to last anyway. Firstly, the theology that teaches that the church has replaced Israel brings the Holy Word of God which came to Abraham into question, and God calls this teaching a profanation of His Holy name in Ezekiel 36: 20. Secondly, those who have persecuted and hated Jews and Israel have justified their hatred and persecution using this exact theology. You may find the whole topic stupid and trivial, but the God Whom you serve does not.

All prophecy is fulfilled in Christ - but Christ hasn't come back yet, and not all prophecy has been fulfilled yet. There are so many prophecies and scriptures which prove a literal millennial reign of Christ on the earth befoe the days of the new heavens and new earth that I don't even know where to start. But let's start by taking a look at the Bible as though it's one whole book instead of bits and pieces here and there that do not relate to one another, shall we? In the Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, we discover that the Hebrew word shaba' is the root-word for the Hebrew words shabat (sabbath) and shib'ah (seven), and sh'biy'iy (seventh); and shaba' means to be complete. The seventh day completes the cycle. What the Bible calls the

Hello, Smalcald. Looking at 2Peter 3, seems like there's no literal millennium, doesn't it? Unfortunately this is the only passage in the entire Bible which seems to point in that direction. Ever tried preacticing sound hermeneutics with regard to this passage and instead of isloating it from the rest of the Bible, looking at the Bible as one whole, and reading other passages which might shed light on 2Peter3's seeming absence of a millennium to follow the return of Christ? Nope. Evidently you haven't. I'll talk more about your fallacy tomorrow. Haven't got more time now. Have a good day. Lekh.

Seems like most Christians only follow the rules of hermeneutics which their theologians created when it suits them. When it suits them, they will isolate certain passages of scripture and interpret them on their own, without reference to everything else the Word of God says about the same subject. But it doesn't matter, because there aint no false theology more powerful than Jesus - not even nearly, and there aint no false doctrine or theology that's going to make God change His mind. It's all been pre-ordained before all time.

Yep, that about sums it up. You would be surprised how much money was given by churches to Palestinian "charities" that ended up in Arafat's personal account years ago. The larger portion of the western Church pretty much stands with the Palestinians against Israel, and this is due in part to viruently anti-Semitic theology that cannot accept that natural Israel is still God's chosen nation. It is not all unlike the "churches' in Europe that bowed the knee to Hitler. Now, they bow the knee to Islam. It would be shocking to the Apostles to hear Christians claim that "the church is the new Israel." That is concept that is foreign to the Bible. The apostles would excommunicate most of the Christian Church. This might sound wicked, but I can't wait to witness Peter excommunicating every Pope.

Well, you posted, and stated that the one who has proved his intellectual dishonesty by consistently ignoring the bulk of Biblical texts that disprove his pet theology, has proved his point, whereas the bulk of Biblical text disproving his pet theology have proved no point at all. Now I dunno but I would say you gave yourself "a dog in this fight"

Oh, the amillenial/replacement theology crowd has been doing that for a long time, even though it's obvious that Jesus is addressing the Pharisees and telling them in no uncertain terms that the religious leadership is now going to be removed from them. Let them run with their ball. They are in store for way bigger problems than trying to intimidate us into buying their doctrine. If God' Word will not convince them of their error, what else is there? James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. You know what their theology has led to in the past many, many times - and what has it led to today?: 1. "The church is Israel" 2. God is finished with the Jews. 3. Therefore we can sacrifice them on the altar of evil in an attempt to appease and pacify our enemies, the Muslims, by showing them how "fair and just" we are supporting their evil cause. You will find that the lion's share of Christians who side with "The church is Israel" theology, are usually anti-Israel and overwhelmingly support the Palestiians. Since they reject Israel's biblical and prophetic right to the land, they are able to more easily embrace the Palestinian claim that the Jews should not be there and that Israel is an illegitamite nation. It makes it easier to blame the Jews as the source of the problems in the Middleast. It's all anti-Semtism, no matter how you slice it. It's all coming to an ultimate dividing between those who take God at His Word the way Abraham did (and the way Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the prophets and the apostles did); and those who do not believe the Word of God which came to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets - just like they did not believe the Word of God which came to Noah - and just like first Eve and then Adam did not believe the Word of God regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil - because they had to disbelieve that God actually meant what He said in order to believe the lie of the devil. It's no wonder the West is in so much trouble with Islamic terrorism and Muslims demanding shariah law in the West and demanding the international outlawing of "blasphemy against Islam". Not only the world but also "the Church" is siding more and more with those who have a demonic hatred of God's chosen nation and their right to live in His land. It all depends on whether or not we BELIEVE the Word of God which came to Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets. The apostles believed it. But a great part of the Church does not. Go figure.

Oh, the amillenial/replacement theology crowd has been doing that for a long time, even though it's obvious that Jesus is addressing the Pharisees and telling them in no uncertain terms that the religious leadership is now going to be removed from them. Let them run with their ball. They are in store for way bigger problems than trying to intimidate us into buying their doctrine. If God' Word will not convince them of their error, what else is there? James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. You know what their theology has led to in the past many, many times - and what has it led to today?: 1. "The church is Israel" 2. God is finished with the Jews. 3. Therefore we can sacrifice them on the altar of evil in an attempt to appease and pacify our enemies, the Muslims, by showing them how "fair and just" we are supporting their evil cause.

Thanks, Shiloh! I've learnt something today. It's once again sloppy but convenient theology to project the parable onto the entire elected nation which was eternally elected by God.

False assumption. And the reasons why the above statement is a false assumption have already been given to you. Yet you continue to choose to ignore the full counsel of the Word of God about these things, and continue to break the first rule of sound hermeutics by isolating certain verses of scripture and interpreting them on their own (such as the verses you quoted in your post above), without bothering to interpret them in the light of what the rest of the Word of God says about the subject. This is intellectual dishonesty, and only the LORD knows your motive for pracitcing intellectual dishonesty. I would be real careful throwing around those weighty phrases like

Muslims don't believe the Cross was faked, they believe in that old crock of poo, the swoon theory. Basically, Jesus lapsed into unconsciousness, the Roman stabbed him and took him down and he was revived in the coolness of the tomb. Medically impossible, unfortunately for them and easy enough to disprove. Even the internal Biblical evidence proves that it's medically impossible. The Roman soldier's spear punctured Jesus' pericardial sac and blood and water came out, separated. This is a sign that he was ALREADY dead, were he alive, the blood and fluid (technically not water, but pericardial fluid)would have been mixed. A prominent Christian doctor did an article on the subject 25-30 years ago. Islam is a weak caricature of the old Jewish order, with animal sacrifices and a law that must be followed to the letter. It will not survive much longer, eventually, the Magogists will demand it be outlawed. I will go as far to say that I think Islam will be the very first religion outlawed as the humanists continue their march. It's easy to want outlaw Islam, with their penchant for violence. Pray that you are right, but I think Islam will be outlawed by Christ at His return - Revelation 13's beast is described by the same animal symbols Daniel 7 used to describe the ancient Greek, Medo-Persian and Babylonian empires - the territory stretches from Eastern Europe through Turkey, down through Lebanon, to Egypt and North Africa and Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and across through Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, right up to Pakistan and Afghanistan. It's all Islamic today, with the exception of Greece, which is very small. Revelation 13 says this beast will rule the whole world, and will make war against the saints and overcome them. I can't remember where I saw this, but someone showed about the number 666 referring to Islam. The mark of the beast could very well be referring to "confessing" that "there is no god but allah, and mohammed is his prophet" I'm not saying the above things are true. But all I know is the Muslims around here (there are hundreds of thousands of them) all act like they're already in charge of the world. They seem very confident that "their unholy jihad is won - it's only a question of time". Christ will judge Islam by His return, I think.

False assumption. And the reasons why the above statement is a false assumption have already been given to you. Yet you continue to choose to ignore the full counsel of the Word of God about these things, and continue to break the first rule of sound hermeutics by isolating certain verses of scripture and interpreting them on their own (such as the verses you quoted in your post above), without bothering to interpret them in the light of what the rest of the Word of God says about the subject. This is intellectual dishonesty, and only the LORD knows your motive for pracitcing intellectual dishonesty.

I'm glad you see it that way, traveller - because the way you see it is the Word of God and not the word of God twisted by vain theology produced in the imaginations of Gentiles puffed up with pride against Israel. What those who follow this theology which twists the Word of God refuse to acknowledge is what has been pointed out again and again - the fact that there are not only two covenants, and the fact that that the covenant which elected the physical seed of Abraham eternally and promised them the land as their everlasting inheritance, was based upon the promise of God alone and not upon the covenant which came 430 years later which they broke: 1. Abrahamic Covenant - based alone upon God's "I will" - an everlasting covenant. Sealed by God's oath. Promises the everlasting nature of the election of the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) and the land of Canaan as their everlasting inheritance. 2. Mosaic Covenant - based on God's "IF YOU WILL, THEN I WILL" - a temporary covenant which has been replaced by the New Covenant. Ratified with blood. 3. Davidic Covenant - based alone upon God's "I will" - an everlasting covenant. Sealed by God's oath and promises the everlasting nature of king David's kingdom (the promised land), throne (Jerusalem) and royal family-line (Messiah the son of David, Son of God). Confirms the Abrahamic Covenant promises. 4. New Covenant - based alone upon God's "I will" - an everlasting covenant. Ratified by the blood of Christ and replaces the only covenant it could replace (since the others are everlasting and not based upon God's "IF YOU WILL THEN I WILL") - it replaces the covenant God made with the fathers of the Israelites "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" - the Mosaic Covenant, which is the covenant which they broke. The New Covenant confirms the Abrahamic Covenant and Davidic Covenant promises: "So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day and the laws of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who divides the sea when its waves roar; Jehovah of Hosts is His name; if those ordinances depart from Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever. So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says Jehovah. Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that the city shall be built to Jehovah from the Tower of Hananeel to the Corner Gate. And the measuring line shall yet go before it to the hill Gareb, and shall go around to Goath. And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields to the torrent of Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to Jehovah. It shall not be plucked up nor thrown down any more forever." (Jer 31:35-40). To ignore the fact that the covenant which is replaced by the New Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant only which does not annul the original promises, and to do so even when the facts are staring us in the face, is to show intellectual dishonesty. Whatever the motive is for this intellectual dishonesty the LORD only knows. They also choose to ignore the fact that Jesus said that the unbelieving Jews would SEE HIM no more UNTIL they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD". They also ignore the fact that Jesus said that Jerusalem would be tread underfoot by Gentiles UNTIL "the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled". They ignore the fact that after the Day of Pentecost Peter told the Jews that they must repent of their unbelief so that Jesus could come back because heaven has received Him UNTIL the time of the restoration of all things. They also ignore the fact that Jesus did not tell the apostles when they asked Him if He would restore the kingdom to Israel at that time, that He would never again restore the kingdom to Israel - He simply told them that it is not for them to know the times and seasons which the Father has put in His own authority, and repeated what He had already told them before - that the gospel must first be preached among the nations. They also ignore the fact that Paul stated that God has not cast away His people and that Paul identified God's people as the physical seed of Abraham by mentioning the tribe of Benjamin in reference to "His people", and that Paul did not say the Church replaces Israel - he taught that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel among the believing remnant and that believing Jews and Gentiles make up the New Testament temple (the Church). They also ignore the fact that Paul stated that hardening in part has happened to the rest of Israel UNTIL the full number of the Gentiles has come into the sheep-fold of Israel. Then they break the first rule of sound hermeneutics by isolating certain scriptures such as "even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees" and "Do not think that you can count on your salvation just because Abraham is your father", and refuse to interpret these verses in the light of what the rest of the Word of God says about these things (in the light of the full counsel of God's Word). And when all these Biblical facts are pointed out to them, they choose to flatly ignore these facts - showing their own intellectual dishonesty and preferring to hold onto their theology which has been produced by a twisting of God's Word. What their motives for their intellectual dishonesty is, only the LORD knows. Perhaps its their fear of the strong disaproval of their peers, perhaps it's puffed-up pride against Jews. Each individual is different, and the reasons for each individual's intellectual dishonesty could be a different reason or reasons. Who knows? Only the LORD. Lekh

Right. I think we all really, really need to know that "For this is the will of God, your sanctification, for you to abstain from fornication, each one of you to know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor (not in the passion of lust, even as the nations who do not know God)" (1Th 4:3-5); and that God wants to see the fruit of the Spirit produced in us, which is not our fruit. I think that we all really, really need to know that we need to abide in the vine in order to produce fruit, because without Him we can do nothing (John 15: 5).

Amen

Sure it does