lekh l'kha

If thats the case then I think more like a Hebrew than a Greek. I also think generalisations can betray truth sometimes. Well Let's talk about some examples to see who interprets the things below with a Hellenistic mind-set and who doesn't: Fact: John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah and denied that he was Elijah (Lu.1:17; Joh.1:21). The disciples saw Elijah and Moses with Yeshua on the Mount where He was transfigured, and so when they came down, they asked Him why the prophets said Elijah would come first, and He answered. "And answering Jesus said to them, Elijah truly shall come first (future tense) and restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, (past tense) and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of Man shall suffer from them. " (Mat 17:11-12) Hellenistic: Time is linear, divided into neat segments. Each event is new. Hebraic: Time is a cycling spiral, similar events constantly re-occur Hellenistic mindset: Elijah was John the Baptist and the prophecy has been fulfilled, never to be repeated again. Hebrew mindset: Elijah truly shall come first and the prophecy truly shall be fulfilled, and the prophecy has also been fulfilled in John the Baptist. Hellenistic: A split between natural & supernatural. Hebraic: Supernatural affects everything. Hellenistic: In the New Covenant, the nation (Israel), the temple (the church) and the kingdom (of Messiah) are all referring to one and the same thing. "Old Testament Israel" was a type of "New Testament Israel" (the church), which is the Kingdom of Christ, which is spiritual, and after this there will be a new heavens. new earth and new Jerusalem - the heavenly promised land and heavenly city. Hebrew: Israel is not a type of Israel, the temple is made up of Jewish and Gentile "living stones", and the Kingdom of Messiah shall come in a literal sense, and it has already come: "And Jehovah shall possess Judah, His portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again." The time and the season for the above was not the first coming of Messiah - it's His second coming, because the gospel had to first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come (Mat.24: 14): "Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Act 1:6-8) Fact: The disciples asked Yeshua: "And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things (the coming destruction of Jerusalem and its temple) be? And what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the world? (Mat 24:3) Question: Did the disciples ask Him for the timing and sign of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple which occurred in 70 A.D, or did they ask Him for the sign of His coming at the end of the age? Answer: Yes. (yes and Yes). Question: Did Jesus give them the timing and sign of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple which occurred in 70 A.D, or did they ask Him for the sign of His coming at the end of the age? Hellenistic: Jesus either gave the sign for the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 A.D OR He gave the sign of his coming at the end of the age. Hebrew: Yes, Mat.24: 9-28 will be fulfilled at the end of the age immediately before the return of Messiah, and it was fulfilled in 70 A.D. So, JCISGD brother, do you have a Hellenistic or a Hebrew mindset?

Very good and accurate comparison, Nebula! But even so, all Christians have the Holy Spirit to bring them to an ever-deepening understanding of the Word of HaShem. All are being transformed by the renewing of their minds, not only those with a Hebraic mindset. My point is that we have to be very careful that we don't develop a false spiritual pride where we exalt ourselves above others, or Christians with a certain mindset above other Christians. I'm not saying you are doing that, but we have to be careful.

OK then, stop attacking me for presenting what I have studied so many years now. If you can prove me wrong, I would be the first to thank you for it. I am in this thread only to defend saints who are being accused of "judaizing" by people who simply haven't taken the time to weigh the evidence of history. And I have noticed you imply another subtle accusation instead of taking my simple challenge. I haven't studied the theology of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th century theologians and leaders - I know enough from reading up on the history of those centuries that most of them pretty much fought one another and accused one another of heresy, and that the culture of the Greeks, and the religions of the Roman Empire did a good job of producing theology like Augustine's "City of God" which is the basis for the "spiritual kingdom of Christ" and "spiritual Israel" idea, and that there was indeed a lot of anti-semitism aiding the whole process, to the extent that at one time "the Church" banned the "Jewish" feasts altogether and wouldn't allow even the Jews to observe them. I'm sure you will agree with me (I believe you do agree with me) that those who don't see what we see still have the Holy Spirit in them and are still having their minds renewed through their study of the Word, just like we are, and knowledge is nothing: "Faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love". Anyway a whole lot of history is as subjective as the person who studies it - we will read into a lot of things what we want to be there, and history has always been invented as it goes along by later generations in accordance with the way they wanted things to be. Jan Van Riebeek never came to the South African coast in the 17th century with a Dutch wife like the history books say - he married a Hottentot woman, but later "white" generations in South Africa never wanted anyone to know that. So history gets changed and invented as time moves along.

Ya gotta admit lekh finding the meaning of things in hebrew opens up a whole way of seeing the scriptures that wasn't there before and the amount of people that I have met just this past year alone that have found getting back into the roots of scriptures, or 'hebrew roots' have just exploded in knowledge and understanding that they did not 'see' before. No ones saying ya have to learn hebrew but a good concordance, or esword or some other really good stuff will help open a whole new world into the hebrew mind set. Yes, it does. But that didn't help even the apostles understand things any better, else they wouldn't have asked the silly questions they asked when they asked things like, "Lord, do you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel"? (They asked that question just 42 days after Yeshua had told them that Jerusalem and its temple would be destroyed and the gospel of the kingdom would first be preached to all nations before the end would come). We know with hindsight that the time and the season for the restoration of the kingdom to Israel would only come once the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all nations. So what if "the Greeks" don't fully understand? the apostles never fully understood at first either. It's the Holy Spirit that causes first the seed then the Word to grow in our hearts and minds - and growth is gradual, yet everyone has been given an equal measure of the Spirit. "And now abide faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love".

And just because we may be aware of the fact that culture can affect the way we understand the Word, doesn't mean that those who have "a Hebrew mindset" understand the Word all that much better than "the Greeks".

EVERYONE in the civilized western world has a greek mindset to some degree. This is exactly what we are to overcome by the washing of the Word. It would be impossible to divorce oneself of greek thinking since our entire civilization is built upon it. Having a greek mind is not the problem, but reading the Bible as if it is a greek concept or document is the problem. Paul was chosen as the apostle to the gentiles BECAUSE he was the only Apostle who had a hands-on understanding of greek philosophical tenets. The Pharisees came about only a century before Yeshua BECAUSE the Jews were being hellenized by this greek mindset and so many were falling away from the faith of their fathers. The Pharisees originally rose up in opposition to the influence of greco-society, but like many christians today, began adding their own particular morality to God's righteousness. When Yeshua spoke about "the world" He was talking about the Greek worldview. That is why terms "gentile" and "greek" are used synonomously all over the newer Covenant scriptures. The greek spirit exalts self above God. This is what Jew/Gentiles need to overcome no matter what mindset they start with. Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better. Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset? First off this is not directed at you or anyone person here but why does everything have to go into a Sabbath, commandment debate? All of the apostles were from Israel, were Jews, who had a hebrew mindset, who thought in hebrew wrote in hebrew but also by that time many of the 'Jews' especially the pharisee and saducees had much of the greek mindset, they were called hellenistic Jews. I think thats why so many see Paul's writings as hard to understand he also used some of that greek thinking trying to reach those greek thinking Jews. Most every single person thinks with a linear mindset and that is not how God put things out He uses cycles for everything, His days and nights, the turnings of the earth, moon, sun, His Feasts, His plantings of the fields there is no way else to see scriptures except from a cyclical hebraic mindset. If we just use the greek thinking we will miss sooo much and at least in my thinking that is where most all of the different denoms and debates come from, the lack of thinking in a hebraic mind. Today most all seminaries, colleges, schools, denoms, just about everything we read and study regarding the bible comes from the greek thinking model with few exceptions. When we put philosophy into scriptures we are putting greek thinking into them, its so ingrained into our minds we have a hard time seeing it. The entire NT is full of hebraic idioms and most find them hard to understand yet if we have the hebrew mindset we see them and can understand them. None of us unless we read, speak and live hebrew we all have some kind of greek type thinking it takes study, study, study, plenty of questioning and lots and lots of prayer to get to the 'hebrew mindset' no one wakes up one morning with full understanding of anything. And by my putting this up I was not accusing anyone of anything nor was it ever my intention nor do I believe anyone else here is accusing anyone of anything all I wished to do was give people something to read and study and to think about. shalom, Mizz I agree with everything you say above, but it is plain and clear as day (including in this thread) that whenever a brother or sister dares to disagree with this "enlightened" view of things, they get ganged up on and attacked - yes attacked. Once again nobody pointed a finger at you. I never responded to any of your posts. It's absolutely pointless talking about this if we get on the attack on those who disagree with our view. and don't say there was no ganging up and attacking going on in this thread - even non-believers (to our shame) can see that this began to take place in this thread.

I've provided proof here since 2002. Why don't you read it before making your false accusations? I can't keep up with who remembers what I've said and who doesn't, so I don't repeat all of it every time I mention it. Tell ya what....here's your chance. Name 10 leaders of the early centuries of the church, who DIDNT make an anti-semitic (bigoted) comments regularly. No...I'll make it easier....just name 5 Then explain the judensau. I live in the 21st century and I never knew nor care much for the leaders of post-apostolic Christianity, and I'm not at war with 21st-century Christians who like me seek to develop a Christ-like mindset through their study of the Word of God, and I'm fully aware that brothers like Bold Believer and JCISD have the Holy Spirit guiding them into all truth through their study of the Word, even though we vehemently disagree on some points, and I'm fully aware that like you and me, they have a filter through which the illumination of the Holy Spirit has to pass - our own minds. I'm not at war with brothers who do not see things the way I do, and I don't believe I'm more enlightened than them or more spiritual or more Godly than them because I try to look at things through a 1st century Jewish mindset when I study the Word. We should be able to discuss these things without getting on the attack so much - if we can't then there's proof we don't have enough of a Christ-like mindset.

EVERYONE in the civilized western world has a greek mindset to some degree. This is exactly what we are to overcome by the washing of the Word. It would be impossible to divorce oneself of greek thinking since our entire civilization is built upon it. Having a greek mind is not the problem, but reading the Bible as if it is a greek concept or document is the problem. Paul was chosen as the apostle to the gentiles BECAUSE he was the only Apostle who had a hands-on understanding of greek philosophical tenets. The Pharisees came about only a century before Yeshua BECAUSE the Jews were being hellenized by this greek mindset and so many were falling away from the faith of their fathers. The Pharisees originally rose up in opposition to the influence of greco-society, but like many christians today, began adding their own particular morality to God's righteousness. When Yeshua spoke about "the world" He was talking about the Greek worldview. That is why terms "gentile" and "greek" are used synonomously all over the newer Covenant scriptures. The greek spirit exalts self above God. This is what Jew/Gentiles need to overcome no matter what mindset they start with. Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better. Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset?

Satan says, "If I can't accuse a saint by something he is actually doing wrong then let me invent something to falsely accuse him by". Paul said, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Rom 12:2-3). And the saints take that to heart. So the saints will be accused with a false accusation to make them feel they are doing something wrong: The Bible is produced by people who had a Hebrew mindset and you have a Greek mindset! The insinuation is that if a saint does not agree with the Jews' insistence on obedience to Torah as a means to please God, they have a pagan Greek mindset. I doubt that any true saint has a truly Greek mindset.

Hey - I need you to explain your reasoning here. How is your mindset different from the Greek mindset and from the Hebrew mindset? And what do you mean by losing one's culture? Culture can be dress, music style (not lyrics, but the instrumentation and melody and such), mannerisms, expressions, accent, daily routines, entertainment options, etc. What culture did you lose when you came to Christ? If i have the mind of Christ, i no longer believe in superstition, mythical beings, horoscopes, or idolising of phylosophy, education or materalism, and i no longer think i can meet Gods standards by sacrifices and being good like the rich young ruler. We lose anything in our culture that is held for reasons of vanity, pride, rebellion, or are unloving. I come from a culture of drunkeness and womanising, nationalism and the blood sports of rugby and boxing. My parents were agnostic/humanist but even if they were born again christian, i would be sining to accept anything they taught that Christ opposed. OK, but I am still not understanding. How does this relate to whether you have a Greek (Hellenistic) mindset when reading Scripture vs a Hebrew mindset vs. something new entirely? And how is this new mindset (if this is your claim) different from Hellenistic (logic and reasoning, studying the Scriptures for what to believe) or Hebrew (learning through stories, studying Scripture for how to live)? I'm pretty sure that JCISGD is like the rest of us and also takes it to heart when he reads, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Rom 12:2). There's an element of false accusation of our brothers and sisters in Christ in this whole "Greek mindset vs Hebrew mindset" thing. The principle is understandable but very basic: if you want to understand the New Testament properly, take the context into account, which includes what the Jews understood and understand by various phrases and references to various things. But there is an element of "I'm bigger and better and more spiritual and Godly than you because I have a Hebrew mindset and you have a Greek mindset" in this whole trashy debate. Let's develop a Christ-like mindset. Paul called his Jewish brethren Peter a hypocrite. Go figure.

"The final status of Jerusalem" ... and it's not what they expect it to be. It's what God said it would be.

I voted I haven't experienced any of the gifts personally. Not because I don't believe that anyone else has - but because I haven't personally - although this is a very broad question, because I have experienced having guidance from God in a dream with specific scriptures coming into my dream which although they were "random" (in the sense that I had not recently been reading those specific scriptures, nor had I ever memorized the book, chapter and verse they were found in, yet they came up book, chapter and verse in my dream and were answers to what I needed at the time). I don't know about the speaking in tongues thing in the churches. I always wonder if they were intelligible human languages and what purpose they served in the days of the apostles and what purpose they serve now. I must admit I don't like listening to people praying in tongues, it makes no sense to me that God would desire it - in fact many years ago I invited an unbelieving acquaintance with me to church one day and went into a Pentecostal church. The moment he heard everyone praying and signing in tongues, he looked at me and said something like "That's it, I'm outta here" and got up and left. What a pity they weren't preaching the gospel in a logical, intelligent way instead of frightening the living daylights out of him with their babbling away in tongues.

Of course, Bold believer, you would be welcome to join Him where He is, but would you want to? Or would you rather continue to hold onto your tradition? The Head of the "ethnos" "Church" is Jesus, and he is not an "ethnos" - He is a Jew. He is still as fully man and as fully God as He always was and shall be - the anti-type of Joseph and of Moses - who became princes of the Gentiles and yet identified fully with their Jewish heritage, their Jewish culture and their Jewish brethren, though they took a Gentile bride. Jesus is just as fully man as He is fully God, and he identifies fully with His Jewish heritage, Jewish culture and Jewish brethren, and like Joseph He yearns for them and mourns for them with such a deep yearning and mourning that when the reconciliation finally comes, the whole "house of Pharaoh" will hear His loud sobs as He embraces them again - and if the Lord were to walk on earth this December passed your "church", and you had to invite Him in to celebrate Christmas, He will look you up and down and tell you you can keep your festival with pagan roots which He wants no part of, and walk straight across to the Jewish part of town to enter a Messianic congregation and celebrate Chanukkah with His brethren.

By the way, Bold Believer, The Head of the "ethnos" "Church" is Jesus, and he is not an "ethnos" - He is a Jew. He is still as fully man and as fully God as He always was and shall be - the anti-type of Joseph and of Moses - who became princes of the Gentiles and yet identified fully with their Jewish heritage, their Jewish culture and their Jewish brethren, though they took a Gentile bride. Jesus is just as fully man as He is fully God, and he identifies fully with His Jewish heritage, Jewish culture and Jewish brethren, and like Joseph He yearns for them and mourns for them with such a deep yearning and mourning that when the reconciliation finally comes, the whole "house of Pharaoh" will hear His loud sobs as He embraces them again - and if the Lord were to walk on earth this December passed your "church", and you had to invite Him in to celebrate Christmas, He will look you up and down and tell you you can keep your festival with pagan roots which He wants no part of, and walk straight across to the Jewish part of town to enter a Messianic congregation and celebrate Chanukkah with His brethren.

"Until"............ "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Mat 23:37-39) So Peter said to the Jews, "Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you, whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began." (Act 3:19-21) "A Psalm of David. Jehovah said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand until I place Your enemies as Your footstool." (Psa 110:1) "And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled." (Luk 21:24). "For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in." (Rom 11:25). "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming; then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power. for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death." (1Co 15:22-26) After the millennium of the reign of Christ ruling all nations with a rod of iron: "And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death." (Rev 20:14). When shall He begin reigning all nations with a rod of iron? So Peter said to the Jews, "Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you, whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began." (Act 3:19-21) And Paul said, "For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in." (Rom 11:25). And Jesus said, "And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled." (Luk 21:24). Because Jesus said, " For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Mat 23:37-39) So Paul said (to the Gentiles), "Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Rom 11:28-29) Because God said, "... Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of many nations. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come out of you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to you and to your seed after you. And I will give the land to you in which you are a stranger, and to your seed after you, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession. And I will be their God. " (Gen 17:5-8) And because God cannot lie or say one thing and mean another, Peter said to the Jews, "Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you, whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, "The Lord your God shall raise up a Prophet to you from your brothers, One like me. You shall hear Him in all things, whatever He may say to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people." And also all the prophets from Samuel and those following after, as many as spoke, have likewise foretold of these days. You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your Seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." Having raised up His son Jesus, God sent Him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you away from his iniquities. " (Act 3:19-26) So you see, when "the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled" and "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" and the Jews have repented of their unbelief and call upon their Messiah - their only Messiah - when Jerusalem is surrounded by the armies of all nations, then: "And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle. And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east and to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south." (Zec 14:3-4) Because our Lord ascended into heaven from the Mount of Olives and He will come back to the Mount of Olives, because the angels said, "... Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into the heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven." (Act 1:11) immediately after Jesus said, "And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Act 1:7-8) Because Jesus said, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." (Mat 24:14) And so when the apostles asked, "... Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Act 1:6), Jesus said, "And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Act 1:7-8) And then He was taken up into heaven - and now He is seated at the right hand of the Father waiting for the day He will return to the Mount of Olives and make His enemies His footstool: "And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations (which will have gathered once again against Jerusalem), like the day He fought in the day of battle. And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east and to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south." (Zec 14:3-4) It's very easy to understand, really - because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and our God does not change His mind about His covenant with Abraham and his seed. The land of Judah is the inheritance of the son of David, and He will rule all nations with a rod of iron from His throne in Jerusalem - because he has never changed His mind about what He swore to Abraham and promised Moses and the prophets.

Israel is already divided - it was divided by the United Nations in 1947. They took most of the land God gave to the tribe of Judah and gave it to the Arabs, diving Israel up between Arab and Jew. They call it "the West Bank" and "The Gaza Strip" or Palestine". Funny how there was no such ting as a "Palestinian" Arab until the creation of the state of Israel - suddenly all the Arabs who had immigrated en-mass into Judea ("The West Bank") with their parents and children in the early 20th century and had come from Egypt and Jordan and Syria, started calling themselves "Palestinians" and "Palestinian" Arabs. Yet no such nation existed before 1948. Let's create our own history: The Palestinian Arabs have a history in Palestine that goes back thousands of years - in fact - they are descended from the ancient Philistines. Far-fetched? Not according to modern history - because the "Palestinian" Arabs say so.

Hi carebeargiver. Welcome to Worthy Forums. You'll be not too way-off from what Blindseeker says about it I'm just speculating in this thread, by the way

The Statue of Liberty holds a torch and a plaque, not a cup. Thank you for the correction. I've never been introduced to her

America, the land of immigrants. What about Canada? Or Australia? Or New Zealand? All founded by immigrants. ... not to mention the Central and South American countries - all of which are represented in what/whom? The United Nations. But even if we are barking up the right tree with the U.N, we're still not there yet, because, "... and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God gave into their hearts to do His mind, and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the Words of God will be fulfilled." (Rev 17:16-17) So the 8th king/kingdom/empire and the harlot are not the same. The ten horns (kings) give their power and authority to the 8th king/kingdom, which rises out of the bottomless pit (Rev.17:8, 11-12). .... and the 8th king/kingdom/empire is "of the seven". So to find out what the identity of the 8th kingdom is, we must know the identity of the first seven - because the 8th king/kingdom/empire will rise from the same kings/kingdoms/empires.

America, the land of immigrants. Okay, so far we have the following:- 1. United Nations came into being at the end of WWII in 1945. 2. Israel came into being by United Nations resolution in 1948 - after the United Nations divided the land in 1947. "For, behold, in those days and in that time, when I will bring again the exiles of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will fight with them there for My people and for My inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land." (Joe 3:1-2) 3. Article 8 of U.N resolution 194: demilitarization and UN control over Jerusalem 1948: Jordan annexes West Bank and East Jerusalem, Israel "annexes" West Jerusalem - both annex these parts of Jerusalem "illegally" in terms of U.N resolution 1967. Israel "annexes East Jerusalem" and the West Bank - "illegally" in terms of the division of God's land by the U.N. 4. The waters where the harlot has her seat are "peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues" (Rev 17:15) 5. The United Nations = "peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues". 6. The woman with a golden cup in her hand = Ishtar = "Babylon the Great" = Statue of Liberty. 7. Jerusalem claimed by both the "Palestinian" Arabs (a nation which never existed as a "separate" Arab nation before 1948) and Israel as the capital of their own countries. 8. Palestinian official policy document, "The Palestine National Covenant", denies the legality of the state of Israel and claims it belongs to the "Palestinian" Arabs. 9. The war is equally about who worships the God of Abraham in the correct way as it is about who owns the land and the city of Jerusalem. Hypothetical scenario: Israeli forces take control of the temple Mount because of a Palestinian uprising. Iran and Syria attack Israel. Israel forces Palestinians out of East Jerusalem, begins tearing down Al Aqsa mosque. We can go over half a million different speculative scenarios to produce: U.N resolution passed demanding that Israel stop "illegally" occupying Jerusalem and hand back control of Jerusalem to the United Nations. Israel refuses. "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the peoples all around, and it shall also be against Judah in the siege against Jerusalem. And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who lift it shall be slashed, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it..." (Zec 12:2-3) "For I will gather all nations to battle against Jerusalem; and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women raped. And half of the city shall go into exile, and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city..." (Zec 14:2) And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle. (Zec 14:3) And it shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (Zec 12:9) For, behold, in those days and in that time, when I will bring again the exiles of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will fight with them there for My people and for My inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land... ... Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up. Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weak say, I am strong. Gather yourselves and come, all you nations, and gather yourselves together all around; cause Your mighty ones to come down there, O Jehovah. Let the nations be awakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the nations all around. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, come down; for the press is full; the vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision; for the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision! The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall gather in their light. Jehovah shall also roar out of Zion and utter His voice from Jerusalem. And the heavens and the earth shall shake. But Jehovah will be the hope of His people and the strength of the sons of Israel. So you shall know that I am Jehovah your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. And Jerusalem shall be a holy thing, and no aliens shall pass through her any more. (Joe 3:1-2, 9-17)

"... The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues," (Rev 17:15) United Nations = "peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues", which "has a kingdom over the kings of the earth". "And the woman whom you saw is the great city which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:18). "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth." (Gen 11:5-9) Babel confusion; mixture (same as Babylon) (Hitchcock Dictionary) "Babylon the Great" = Babel The woman with a golden cup in her hand = Ishtar = "Babylon the Great". Are we getting somewhere or am I barking up the wrong tree?