OneAccord

This is a hard saying for me: I don't understand it, but I believe it!!! That would be a great line in the apologetics thread!! (I'm just teasing you, yod, don't take it personal)

Gee, Ted, I'd fight with you anyday....

I still don't get why Paul says ALL of Israel will be saved, if he only means a REMNANT, or only those who happen to be priviledged to be alive when Jesus' feet touch down on the mount of Olives. That's leaves billions who never got saved down through time, as it appears to be factual that only a very small percentage of Israel has recieved the Lord at this present time. Also regarding Nebula's comment about predestination and prophesy being different, how so? If it was prophesied, and therefore we believe it will come to pass, then it must be predestined.

Yod: Do you believe that only those of Israel that are alive when He reveals Himself to them will be saved (besides the Messianic Jews who accept Him now), or do you mean ALL of Israel. In other words, who is the ALL in ALL of Israel will be saved? (Hope I'm not derailing the thread, but I'm needing some understanding on this...)

Good post, catsmeow, you got heart, sister. As for me, my prayer list in realtime is loooong, endless. On the boards, I pray for those who I feel moved by the Spirit to pray for, but frankly I don't have time to pray for everyone. I don't even spend much time on the computer, I have lots else going on in my life. I tend to come here more as a Bible study. I realize many have different needs, I'm just stating where I'm at.

we keep trying. That's all we can do. There won't be real unity this side of heaven as long as humans are involved. However, I still don't think you should take it personally. Lots of folks are here on the Boards because it is a safe place to sound off. We don't spend time on threads where everyone is already saying everything we believe. We tend to gravitate towards conversations that challenge us. It's just the nature of the discussion forum to do that. So there will always be opposing views on every subject or there's no reason for a discussion, ya know? And when "our" position on things is forcefully engaged human nature is to get defensive. We don't need to change our opinions as much as we need to let God change our human nature.....so we can accept whatever the truth may be and not worry about being seen as "wrong". I'm pretty stubborn once I've convinced of knowing an issue. I wouldn't argue about something that I haven't thoroughly researched...or can't be proven (rapture, antichrist, etc...) I appreciate hearing opposing views....I really do. The only time I get upset is when those opposing views have no basis in fact. It only frustrates me then.... I consider Shilo a friend in the quest for truth. However, he gets frustrated and defensive when the "other side" disregards his research for facts and settles for opinions presented as news stories. He'll get defensive because, unlike eschatology or word studies, this IS a matter of life or death. My friend from Canada on the other is extremely polite and gets his digs in a more subtle way. I believe he's dead wrong on the substance of these issues but he is at least respectful...and I commend him for that. There is such a wide gulf on such an important subject that it's just not realistic to think we can pray together unless we can separate ourselves from this very personal and passionate issue. I think I can but it's hard sometimes. I see a couple of folks justifying the violent deaths of people I love. The think they see the same thing in me and there's no way to convince otherwise. We'll get this worked out with time...and a rapture. :il: Good post for the most part, yod. I just have trouble with this statement: Who gets to decide whose facts are legitimate and whose aren't? When 'facts' get presented by the opposition they are discredited as propaganda, spin or whatever. Sometimes the gulf is so wide it seems we can't even agree on what makes a fact a fact. If you agree with it it is a fact, if not than it must not be a fact. Personally for me, I enjoy a decent debate, iron sharpens iron, I am challenged by it. But I also like to think we can be like the sheepdog and the coyote in the old cartoon that punched in in the morning, went round and round, then punched out and went out for a burger. Anyone remember that cartoon??? I don't get offended by someone presenting an opposing view, I think it is quite interesting and stretches me, especially trying to get into the pscychology and logic of the other side, because I honestly am not wired to think the same way as some do. I do get offended when someone begins making character smears instead of sticking with the issues. Do you think that by discrediting someone's character, that makes their argument invalid?

I have heard Ephesians 2:8 interepreted that faith is a gift given to us by God, not something we already had and then He activated it. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Most say that it is the grace that is the gift of God, but I think the faith to believe in and to accept the grace was provided by God also. Faith is often turned in to a 'works'. Interesting question, it reminds me of a thread a while back started by Blindseeker asking 'what is grace?' Not as cut and dry as we think. The more we grow in Christ, the more these simple words are magnified.

I directed nothing at Nebula, I posted a direct quote from Shiloh's post. And here he is taking another potshot. How prayerful is that? The general tone of the post, and many others lately, is that I, or anyone else that has a more 'liberal' view of the world stage isn't as Christian as he is or something and has no compassion for the oppressed, just some self-serving agenda. I get rather weary of being painted that way. Posting threads on Peacenik Warmongers and such is fanning the flames. He cannot accept a pacifist Christian as a valid walk with Jesus. Somehow it isn't Christian enough for him. As for this verse, I am not necessarily in agreement with Shiloh so I guess this verse doesn't apply.

Basically I was responding to this post, which I feel has a very condescending tone and accusatory nature. I don't feel that I need to post some lofty prayer in order to show someone how Christian I am. Saved by Grace, you are perhaps not aware of the 'history' behind said post.

Matthew 6:5,6 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synogogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place, and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you openly."

Love is the power behind nonviolence Bringing a spiritual perspective to daily life When his house was bombed, Martin Luther King rushed home from his church on Dexter Avenue in Montgomery, Ala. He'd been preaching and leading a meeting in support of nonviolence. Miraculously his family hadn't been hurt. Yet who knew what would happen next? Was this the first of a series of attacks? Would the next hour bring a mob rampaging through the streets? Frightened and angry, a crowd grew in the front yard. Dr. King stepped onto his front porch and addressed the mass of men willing to defend him and his family. No one would have blamed him for resorting to armed protection. Instead, he urged restraint. He told the crowd to go home and put away their weapons. Those whom he asked to stay the night to watchfully protect his home were told not to have any guns. In the face of violence, King stuck firmly to his message of nonviolent response and relied on the superior power of love to ultimately defeat hatred. King preached and practiced the biblical concept of "love your enemies." It was more than conviction in the Scriptures or blind faith in the Word of God. King had moved beyond a doctrinal platform to a living faith and comprehension of God as Love. As he said later, "Nonviolence is absolute commitment to the way of love." It's this absolute conviction of the power of love that makes King so appealing to me. The founder of this newspaper, Mary Baker Eddy, once wrote: "I make strong demands on love, call for active witnesses to prove it, and noble sacrifices and grand achievements as its results.... Love cannot be a mere abstraction, or goodness without activity and power" ("Miscellaneous Writings 1883-1896," page 250). Whether or not King was aware of her words, certainly he put this message into practice in ways that blessed hundreds of thousands of people. I know how frightening guns and tear gas can be. I was in high school and college during the campus uprisings in the United States. My mother, who was attending graduate school at the time, narrowly escaped being taken hostage. The professor told them to turn out the lights as armed students rushed through the building. In the dark, Mother prayed. Suddenly the door burst open. A gun-wielding man in his 20s swung his rifle around the room as his eyes adjusted to the dark. Mom said later she prayed for everyone's safety and to know that God governed. The professor suddenly stepped into the light spilling from the hallway and calmly told the intruder that his graduate students had important oral exams to complete. The man hesitated, and then turned and left. The class continued. The campus closed for several weeks, as others had been taken hostage. On several occasions, heavily armed National Guardsmen arrived at sporting events or concerts I attended. Once my friends and I were detained by a guardsman armed with a machine gun. In each case my only resort was prayer. I was afraid. Students had been killed only a few hundred miles away. I would pray mightily that the God of love would love us and keep us all safe. We quietly extracted ourselves from each circumstance without incident. These experiences caused me to respect in a profound way the tremendous moral courage and spiritual conviction of African-Americans during the '50s and '60s. And even more to realize the elements of divinity that Martin Luther King expressed in his daily walk and life. He practiced Jesus' teaching as a powerful force in the modern world. As he said in 1957, "I am convinced that love is the most durable power in the world.... love is an absolute necessity for the survival of our civilization. To return hate for hate does nothing but intensify the existence of evil in the universe. Someone must have sense enough and religion enough to cut off the chain of hate and evil, and this can only be done through love." Today Jesus' message as practiced by Martin Luther King is just as needed as ever. There is hatred in the world. Armed groups are taking power through violence and the threat of violence. Fear, prejudice, injustice, and slavery still exist. Expressing divine Love is the only way to permanently remove these evils. As we celebrate Martin Luther King's life, let's rekindle a conviction in the power of love to reverse hatred and restore justice.

Or sunlight? Or wind?? We have the technology..............

Pro-war propaganda! :x:

Poppycock! :sleep:

I'd have to say I agree with eric on this one. I think the filmmakers are really capitalizing on the blood and gore aspects of the crucifixion. I realize that Jesus suffered tremendously physically, but it's not like thousands of others didn't experience the same physical torture of crucifixion as it was a common means of execution in those days, we hear of scenes of crosses lining both sides of the road in some places. I imagine that many of those prisoners suffered abuse, whippings and humiliation t as well. Some were probably even innocent of the crimes they were being executed for. There are plenty of accounts of severe physical and mental torture throughout the history of the world, many of the early Christian martyrs suffered some pretty gnarly executions as well. The two thieves on the crosses on either side of Jesus must have been suffering pretty heavy too. I think what made Jesus' suffering more brutal than anything any human has ever suffered is the SIN OF THE WORLD that was laid upon Him at that time. I really hope the movie gets that point across. I will probably go see it, but I am sure I will be offended by the lengths the filmakers have gone to to portray the physical suffering so graphically. Personally I don't like the pictures like on Time Magazine with blood dripping all over His face and such. I don't really like my young children having to see them when we are in line at grocery stores. I would NEVER take my young children to see that movie. The face of Christ that I want to dwell on and remember and imprint in the hearts and minds of my children is the RESURRECTED CHRIST, there's the victory. I really hope the resurrection scene in the movie is as glorious as the cross scene is bloody.

Boy, this sounds exactly like the church we left a couple of years ago! You're practically telling my story!!! It was very difficult to leave and uncomfortable, and those folks still avoid us in public and pretend we don't exist. It felt like a divorce at first but being gone from there has been a relief and we have grown in leaps and bounds ever since. Looking back, I can see where He wanted us to go through that experience so we would truly have our eyes open and not fall for the apostasy that is prevailing in the land so blindly. The fact that it is so hard for you to leave shows me a heart of devotion and caring about the ministry and you probably feel like you're abandoning them. Pray for them, but let the truth set you free.

I believe that God's judgements against Israel are unto righteousness. He is perfecting them through suffering as a nation, and cleansing and purifying, in order that ALL Israel will be saved. Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgement and by the spirit of burning......... I understand the point you are making here Shiloh and I agree with you. Not to be controversial, but I feel exactly this way about 9-11. No one seems to want to percieve this as a judgement from God but as an act of terrorism by evil men. It seems to me that all nations are under judgement, and it's pretty much individuals that recieve salvation at this time.

Hi Tygra: I pretty much lost all my friends when I found Jesus, and don't fit in with the church people too well either, plus all my family is atheist. So it's been a very lonely road socially, but Jesus seems to give me always just enough to take the next step and the next. As for witnessing to your old friends, that is a hard one. Most of them probably don't want to hear it and have a kneejerk reaction to Christianity in general. They are probably going to start thinking that you will become judgemental of them and condemning and none of them like thinking that you believe they are going to hell. This has been my experience. Also none of them is really very interested in my new faith and I have not had a single person ask me about it in 3 years. They all know that I'm a Jesus Freak but never ask me why. My way of sharing my faith is by trying to be a living light, walking it, not just talking it. I did have one close friend come to the Lord because he saw the change in me and because I didn't 'push Jesus on him' ( which is how a lot of people feel about being witnessed to), mostly I had just told him how I had just fallen in love with Jesus. He has a strong dislike for churches and it was encouraging to him to see someone who was totally in love with Jesus but not getting all churchy and holier-than-thou, just living it in my daily life. You are blessed to have your family in the Lord.

Great links, other one, and most appropriate to the subject at hand. Unfortunately I doubt that most will take the time to read them. They are pretty convinced it's not about oil. I don't agree with everything this guy writes, but I do agree that these multi-national corporations are running the show much more than anyone realizes, as they operate a little more behind-the-scenes and aren't in the public eye as much as the government which makes a convenient smokescreen for the corporate execs. This is basically what the WTO protests are all about: exposing the practices of these multi-national corporations. But most Christians have a knee-jerk reaction to the protests and never really examine the issues they are trying to expose. I especially didn't agree with his take on environmentalists opposing nuclear power projects in order to boost the oil industry, and essentially working as "pseudo-environmentalists" to take out a competing industry. Rather the oil industry may have taken advantage of environmentalist concerns about nuclear energy, but the concerns about nuclear energy are quite valid, especially issues of disposal and safety. He also didn't make any reference to the depleted uranium being used in US munitions and thus conveniently disposed of that way on the battlefields. The hard-core environmentalists are trying to promote sustainable energy sources such as solar power and wind-powered generators, biodiesel fuel made out of recycled cooking oils, electric or more fuel-efficient cars, etc. But most folks in the super-industrialized nations won't consider these alternatives and their efforts are down-played by the media, and the oil consumption increases at great profit to the oil executives.

Great post, John S. I agree ! I would ask you, though, what do you think a Christian's response to the sovereignity of God in all the affairs of the world should be? What service should we be doing as co-laborers with Him to bring about His master plan?

I hear ya Bro!! Yea this is Josephstrks again,,Ha! Ha!..I feel its high time to put our hands in the air, and our knees on the ground, and start wearing some holes in our jeans.... Hey Ted as far as for me getting on the board more, If I sit still more than a minute, I must be asleep..Ha! I get frustrated at these darn Comp... I tell you what, you send the terrorist's, and Ill gladly send you this darn contraption!!! The terrorist's I could probably handle, and not break a sweat, but this comp. gives me heck sometimes.. Well I better go will surley support the prayer, your brother in our Lord Jesus Josephstrks

I am a pacifist, through and through. I despise violence on any side of any dispute. My beliefs on non-violence and non-resistance to evil are very close to those of the Mennonite/Anabaptist Christians, who prefer persecution or death rather than engage in or condone violence for ANY cause. http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/...t/846chrnr.html You are trying to paint me as an anti-Semite, which is a pretty sad way to try to justify your cause. You seem to think if people don't endorse your views then they are Jew-haters. There's sort of a reverse racism going on with that logic. I've been on this merry-go-round before with you folks and you know EXACTLY where I stand, and I'm jumping off. I don't need your firey darts and accusations. :il: Love your God with all your heart, mind, strength and understanding and love your neighbor as yourself.

Shiloh: I think you are getting a little out of hand. I really don't appreciate your public attacks on my character.

Shiloh: I have to say I found this article offensive also. What is your purpose in posting it?

In the end it wont matter, as to who is right or wrong, rember the Lord our God has placed these rulers, and things into play, Just as his birth was fortold so is his return. Ted I pray you Godspeed in returning to your family, from one man to another, who has had to leave his family, and face periles unknown to or loved ones, I pray continue the good fight, to let all who have an ear hear!!! Amen Josephstrks, an old worthyborder, who cant type verry well, and dont like sitting down for verry long at a time. Love in our Lord Amen