The Journey

Cats, This junk resurfaces every few years so it is not new in Christendom. More recently I saw it as a rebuttal for those who want to force the Church to be Torah compliant. Obviously, Paul is a threat to those who want to live in homosexuality or spread many other heresies throughout the Church. Basically, my answer would have been the same as it is in defense of the entire canon of Scripture. It is reasonable to believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God even the writings of Paul. But that is different than saying I can prove that the Bible is the Word of God so that no skeptics or atheist could disagree. I would look into the motivation of the poster. Question the presuppositions he/she is making to come to the conclusion. there is where you will find your answer. -Steve

No, Yod I just know Stapp and a lot published about them is baloney. Again, I don't think he is living his life right but he makes a lot of good points about the Americanized Church. Lets pray the Lord turns his life around and that the touring and "business" doesn't destroy him. I am with you on this one...we are not on opposite sides I just am a little hesistant to judge someone's salvation. Stapp says he knows the Lord then I believe him. If he gets drunk and dishonors the Lord then he is still a Christian just a bad one. - Steve PS He gets a lot of advice that he doesn't listen to. Like think before you speak in interviews. Flippant remarks carry a lot of weight when others look to you as a role model.

Well Yod so is mine. Just for the record the band has officially on their website denied all the allegations of that video. Very much the music industry has an axe to grind against Creed. Much like Bono people of faith who are in the public eye are scrutinized and every piece of dirty laundry and every flipant comment becomes front page news. He did not write his lyrics while a pot head hanging out in a dormitory. Actually the lyrics to "My Own Prison" were written over some period of time. Stapp puts a tremendous amount of time and thought into the lyrics they sing. While in Birmingham where I caught up with the band...he really made an effort to make the lyrics as plain as possible during the show. Bottom line...Scott does not live his life like I think it should be lived. He doesn't want to "be a witness" for what he sees as a corrupt church. He does believe that there are answers to be found and wishes to point those completely lost in the right direction. The funny is that Scott may be a much more useful instrument for the Kingdom than most of the garbage that goes for ministry now in Christendom. - Steve

skeezix, yep they can quote scripture and put a metal sound to it. not sure if that makes them deep or any different than other bands. this is more what I had in mind two offerings from Creed. "I hear a thunder in the distance See a vision of a cross I feel the pain that was given On that sad day of loss A lion roars in the darkness Only he holds the key A light to free me from my burden And grant me life eternally" or "Only in America We're slaves to be free Only in America we kill the unborn To make ends meet Only in America Sexuality is democracy Only in America we stamp our god "In God We Trust"" I could post on and on. Unlike Yod, I don't like to theroize about who is a christian and who is not. Only the Lord truly knows Scott Stapp's heart. He definately does not want the label of "Christian" band because the Church has a very poor track record in America. Very quick to judge the "unbeliever" very slow to take out its own rotting garbage. - Steve

BlessEwe, As a physician I have counseled many many couple through exactly these same problems. I would strongly recommend marital counseling. Now to a man this can be very threatening. Having some outside party get involved in his "business" and tell him what to do and what he is doing wrong. You may have to delicately frame this in terms of what this can bring to your marriage. For example, "This counselor helps couple become more intimate. There are things we can learn so that both our needs are met." This is a much better way to open the marital counseling discussion rather than implying than the counselor is going to get him because he is such a bad husband. Relationships are the hardest things humans are called to bear. They teach us and hurt us the most. - Steve PS I completely agree with Bill on the destructive nature of pornography. Unfortunately the internet has only made this problem worse. Even without soliciting the junk it arrives daily in my INBOX. Men are very driven sexually by what they see. This can be extremely difficult and will require his wanting to stop. The purifying fire of the Holy Spirit is the only power I know of that will allow a man to walk away from such bondage.

Skeezix, Well obviously you know nothing of Creed's music. So please enlighten us with what you consider Christian Metals deep lyrics.... - Steve

OOPPs I posted and then saw God-man's excellent post. Very nice. Dearest Cats, Awesome post!!! As always you nail it exactly. The word "prophesy" is a transliteration from the Greek. if our English Bibles had it translated instead it would read "to speak forth." Today the real prophets speak forth the Word of God as revealed in the Bible. The first century prophets did the same thing only they did not have a written NT. VOG has a difficult delimma. On the one hand he want to believe he is a special agent from God who gives us common cattle the word from on high. When VOG gives an opinion on Scripture, no matter how wrong his interpretation, it is God speaking. He wants to claim that he holds the office of prophet just like Jeremiah or Ezekial. However, he never gives new revelation. He never predicts the future. Every time he adds just a little to the Scriptures he posts....he goes off into deep error and in my opinion at times heresy. I believe that the Scriptures he posts are Words that have spoken deeply to him. He believes that the Church needs to hear them and he may be right. The reality is that he is a "prophet" just like my pastor or that dear Baptist pastor that Cats posted. He is no different because God has stopped giving new revelation to the Church. The Master wants us to guard the faith that was once for all delivered to the Saints. Please hear me on this one point. God still speaks to His Church. He speaks to His Bride through the revealed revelation in the completed OT/NT. His last Word was Jesus. We all have what He wants us to know. When parts of the Church follow new "prophets" like VOG they are always led into error. Just look around us at all the "prophets" and the heresy they spew. You want to see a "prophet" turn on Benny Hinn and get a load of his heretical garbage. But guess what? He claims they come right from the throne room. He claims he smells of heaven when the Lord uses him to prophesy. Garbage! and we should be ashamed that so many follow him. - Steve

Skee, Despite Gary's lack of musical breadth there is nothing wrong with any musical style..whether that be lyrics put to a country sound or a metal sound. What I find lacking in much of today's music is depth. You will look far a wide to find in "christian" music a song as deep as Creed's "My Own Prison." To me the value of music is the ability to connect with where I am in my life and not just putting Scripture to music. When I want worship music I go to Church. - Steve PS Steve Taylor, Terry Taylor, DA, The Swirling Eddies, 77s and Michael Card are not included in that criticism....

Happy, Intelligence is just part of the cards you are dealt in life. Just like good looks, talent, money or fame. Its how you play those cards that matters for eternity. You could take your post and substitute the words "very talented" and you would have the same problem. We are commanded to love the Lord with all our being and that includes our mind. There really is no such thing as "worldly intelligence" as reality is the Truth. We should be people dedicated to being real. The world sees right through us when we play games with them. The Lord uses each of us as we are so gifted. I cannot sing and therefore short of a miracle I am never going to reach the lost through my voice. However, I have been privileged to take the message of the Cross to some of the most intelligent and influential men and women in America. The Lord has just moved me into positions where I was able to be a witness. There is no trick to witnessing to someone who is intelligent as Truth is the actual state of affairs. When you know your Bible you know reality. No matter how smart or how many PhDs or MDs they cannot escape reality. - Steve

The Church is not Israel. Everyone ponder that. - Steve

Martyr, Its nice to be appreciated by a veteran member!!! Have your seen any of those gorgeous calf-skin leather NASB from leatherbibles.com. They are a little pricey but absolutely a work of art. - Steve

Thanks God-man, Wow seeing that Board makes me really appreciate what we have here!!! Look for me in the posts!! - Steve

Hmmm in medicine we call this a "word salad." Please clarify your comments brother so others may respond. - Steve

Blood, The 1611 was the first completed translation as commissioned by King James. There were other Bibles before the 1611 KJV. The 1611 has undergone 5 revisions since 1611 the last in 1769. Anyone who believes that the 1611 was God's perfect Bible needs to actually go see and read a 1611. It is almost impossible to read...it has the Apocrypha and the catholic prayers for the dead...and has footnotes from the 1611 translators noting where the KJV text is not well supported by the Greek. The translators themselves state that their goal was to produce a modern translation that could be read and understood by the people of the 1600s. This is the same goal behind all the new translations. Most KJV-onlyist do not want to discuss all the problems with KJV and its many revisions. But they delight in mocking all the translations since 1611. Again, of focus must be on the Greek manuscripts that are the basis of all translations...including the beloved KJV. - Steve PS Martyr, you are right the NASB is the most accurate translation from the Greek. It reads like a Greek interlinear Bible. It is as close to a word for word as you will get....even more true to the Greek than the KJV. But it is also sometimes choppy and difficult to just sit and read for pleasure. The ESV is accurate but IMHO much more readible and enjoyable.

Blood, The KJV went through 5 revisions the last in 1769. That is the version you buy at your local Christian bookstore. Why the 5 revisions? Why wasn't the 1611 perfect? have you ever seen a 1611? It has the Apocrypha and prayers for the dead...you know Catholic stuff not accepted by most protestants. It also had footnotes where the translators noted that some of the verses did not have good Greek support. The 1769 KJV is a fine translation...but it is not perfect and the NKJV is a huge improvement. - Steve

Blood, Ok. I know where your coming from. He harbors some anger against the Americanized Church that is slow to judge herself and quick to judge the world. Scott does not want to be identified with that. Now back to the topic at hand. Well, I have many including the KJV that I have learned the best. But I think that the English Standard Version is the best English translation today. http://www.gnpcb.org/home/esv/ J.I. Packer was the editor over the translation team. They used all available manuscripts including the MT that includes the TR to make the best possible translation. - Steve

Blood, Brother, do you know Scott? Have you been to his house in orlando? Do you know his family? Well, until you can say yes to some of these then you should reserve judgement on his relationship to the Master. The Lord is working on him and has used him in ways that many "Christian" bands can only dream of. Scott's problem is that he is brutally honest. Despite counsel from his friends he persists in this nasty little habit. Now back to the topic. A Ruckmanite is one who follows the heretical preacher in Pensicola, FL that believes that God corrected the Greek text when the Anglicans produced the 1611 KJV. Thus, if the Greek text disagrees with what the KJV says, then the Greek is wrong. The TR is the textus receptus. The KJV is based on it. The TR was prepared by a catholic named Erasmus. He used the Latin Vulgate to translate into Greek TR for portions of Scripture that are found in no Greek manuscript. The TR is based on the Majority Texts (MT). These are newer Greek texts that are Byzantine in origin. Most of the 5000 manuscripts we have are of this type. Sometimes the TR that erasmus prepared disagrees with the MT. The Critical Text (CT) is what most newer versions of the Bible are based upon. These are the oldest manuscripts. Some are Papyrus manuscripts. P66 (Papyrus 66) dates approximately AD 150-200. This has for example the Book of John and is very close to the time that the original autographs were written. It is not the original as written by John but it probably has not been copied more than once or twice. Why does all this matter? Well the Apostles who wrote our New Testament wrote in Greek. They did not write in English. Thus, what your Bible reads in any one passage depends on the Greek text that it is translated from. The question is not does the NKJV differ form the KJV. The question you have to ask is: Does the Greek support the KJV or the NKJV? If the verse says "repent" in the KJV and not the NKJV well, what does the Greek say there? If the Greek has the word repent and the NKJV does not, then the NKJV is translated poorly in that place. Since you are new to all this my suggestion would be get books from both sides of the argument...not just Gail Ripplinger. Get the book The King James Only Controversy by Dr. James White. It can be purchased on his website: https://aomin.org/bookstore/shop.html?shop=books. Get educated on both sides and then make your decision. - Steve P.S. Its ok to judge Creed's music or Scott for his life or lifestyle. If the music is evil or his lifestyle is wrong then we should say so. He may be a good or a bad Christian. But we should not say that he is not a Christian. Only Lord knows the relationship He has with Scott Stapp.

uhhhhhhahhhh (I yawn). Well here we go again. Blood, First, what brand of KJV-onlyist are you? Are you Ruckmanite? A TR only? or a MT only? Second, what edition of the KJV do you have? The 1611 or one of the many revisions? Thanks, Steve

Happy, I know this is a cliche but don't confuse meekness with weakness. The nice Christians are all around you. But that doesn't mean that we always agree and have goofy smiles on our faces. - Steve

Gary, Bottom line. There are those who believe that divine health is our right just like forgiveness of sin. Yet they get sick and die just like the rest of us. There are those who claim to have the gift of healing just like Christ and the Apostles. Yet, when precious believers are turned away sick they blame them for secret sin and unbelief. Then those precious brothers and sisters come to my office and I am with them to the end. Do you know how many times I have heard this story..."The Church was so attentive and visted me praying over me, annointing me, casting out demons of sickness...but as soon as I did not get well...where was the pastor, evangelist, healer.......GONE!!!" I worked at Texas Children's Hospital. I spent day after day caring for these angels with cancer. Innocence. Pure faith. To not use that "gift" and heal them is evil plain and simple. Of course, the real reason is not because they won't heal them....its because they can't. The gift of healing was used by God to validate His New Covenant message. It was not intended for the Church to live in divine health. Those that believe this have poorly interpreted the Scriptures and are not living in reality. Its for those who claim divine health to prove otherwise. They all eventually get sick and die just like the rest of us lowly humans. - Steve P.S. I am sorry to hear that the pastor treated you and your wife like that. That is wrong. There are many "shepherds" in our Churches who need to be tossed out. "Hey pastor, Col Sanders just called...you got the job. Now get out!" Unfortunately in the social networks some Churches become the pastors often wield considerable power against "outsiders" who question their actions. When my mom and dad where first married my mother almost died of penumonia. The pastor of their Church (a Baptist Church) said that God told him it was because they were not tithing enough. My dad punched the guy in the nose and has never been back to Church. In my weak moments I sometimes think about finding that guy. Just to have a little chat.

Nope, its Todays NIV.

Gary, No. I think you are referring to the TNIV. - Steve

Traveller, Go ask Cat what is my favorite translation. What for those claws they are sharp!! - Steve

I know. My eyes still hurt. Your claws are sharp.

C4C, WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! ahhhhh see the website. It was sort of a revision of the RSV that became a completely new and different translation. There is no translation like it. Also the KJV/NKJV are based on Byzantine manuscripts. The ESV is based on the oldest Alexandrian manuscripts and newer Byzantine manuscripts. - Steve