Steve_S

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why did it take so long to mention that people don't repent?

I have no idea, but it isn't delineated specifically so any postulation is conjectural.

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why is it even mentioned at all that people didn't repent?

The only answer I can give to this is that it's because they didn't repent. I cannot speak to why God chooses to reveal what He chooses to reveal to us.

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Why are we even informed of that development unless it was significant in some regard?

It's certainly significant (if for no other reason than God revealed it), but the scripture does not indicate an explicit reason for its significance.

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If people are incapable of repenting then why would God torture them like that?  Why not just kill them and be done with it?

This is not a question that I can answer, but I do know that those who take the mark of the beast will not repent and turn to Christ, because the bible explicitly states that they won't. Again, I cannot give God's reasoning for doing anything. His ways are not our ways. 

32 minutes ago, Jane1234 said:

I recently started dating a guy who seemed perfect and too good for me. We have been spending every day together getting to know one another for about a week. He is new to town so we have a lot we don’t know about one another but he seems to be very open and honest about everything. We were making plans to go to a movie over text and he asked if I wanted to come over to his place after (for the first time) and he said he wouldn’t make an sexual advances. I was really happy he clarified this and it gave me the impression that he was being upfront on the fact that we would not be having sex together while dating. He then asked over text what my thoughts on sex in a relationship are and said if I was too uncomfortable we could drop it. I told him that I thought sex was great in a marriage. To which he replied “sweet, do you have any questions for me?” I said the same one he asked me. He then said he thought sex was important in a relationship however if one wants to wait that the other should respect that and hope that they get married and he would do that if I actually wanted it. My interpretation was that he was okay with premarital sex. It totally freaked me out because I believe sex is for marriage and so far he seemed to be a great christian guy. I actually started crying and didn’t text it for a bit. I wrote back to him saying that we have different beliefs and that we are not a match for each other but I wish him the best. He then realized that I was wanting to break up with him and he tried calling me twice but I ignored his calls. After I made my stance clear he says it was all a misunderstanding and that he believes the same as me and that he was just testing the waters because he didn’t want me to dump him if he said he didn’t want to have premarital sex. He says he won’t bring it up again and is trying to move on like it never happened but I can’t move on without this settled. So I cancelled our plans and he says I’m over reacting. I’ve l gone over the wording in his texts a lot and my first impression still sticks with me though I wonder if I jumped the gun and am ruining things with what I thought could be someone I could spend the rest of my life with. 

My recommendation is to trust your instinct and flee.

2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Steve_S.

Ah, but you see, the word is "world" not "earth." We're not talking about the Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay"); we're talking about the Greek word "kosmos!"

2889 kosmos (kos'-mos). Probably from the base of komizoo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) -- adorning, world.

This is a word used to talk about CIVILIZATION and the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments currently in place in Yeshua`s time! The beginning of the "world" was AFTER Noach's Flood! So, this time of trouble and pressure is not including this "greatest calamity."

Interesting. So since you assert that "kosmos" means the world system of governments currently in place in Christ's time period, let's look at how that word is used contextually and the implications of such a claim.

Mat 25:33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 
Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In your opinion is this kingdom only prepared for the sheep from the foundation of the world system present during Christ's time period? Was it from the creation of the world? Or was the plan of the kingdom only formulated by God after the flood?

Here's another.

Rev 13:8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (kosmos).

Do you assert that the "world" in this context (kosmos) is only speaking of "civilization?"... From the "foundation of civilization?" That doesn't really fit contextually locally or broadly.

If the beginning of the world (kosmos) was "after Noah's flood" as you state, then God's plans for salvation did not begin until after Noah's flood, which is simply scripturally untenable and certainly does not reasonably line up with a God we know to be entirely omniscient. Either the great tribulation itself is going to be worse than the flood or God's plans for salvation did not start until after the flood. Using your own methodology of interpretation, it cannot be both.

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, this is not the ONLY occurrence the Greek word "thlipsis" (translated "tribulation") in the Olivet Discourse. We also have...

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

They shall deliver you up "into tribulation" is not an unreasonable manner of putting that phrase. However, this is different than the phrase found in Matthew 24:21. Let's take a look:

Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Great tribulation here is not eis thilipsis. It is "megas thilipsis," which has an entirely different connotation, of course. This is why the translators of the NKJV chose to translate 24:9 "deliver you up to tribulation" while they maintained "great tribulation" as the translation for 24:21, because the the adjective megas modifies the noun thilipsis.

In the case of Matthew 24:9, eis thilipsis is a noun preceded by a preposition. In other words, comparing "eis thilipsis" to "megas thilipsis" is gramatically equivalent to comparing apples and oranges, so I'm unsure why that was even broached.

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

And, Yeshua` was specifically talking TO HIS DISCIPLES sitting right there before Him with the word "you" (Greek: humas = you [second person, plural, accusative case]). He wasn't talking to them about future generations at that point in His discourse! 

This is an interesting assertion as well. Let's take a look at Matthew 5.

Mat 5:11  "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 
Mat 5:12  Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 
Salt and Light
Mat 5:13  "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 
Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 

Are you are prepared to mount the same defense for these verses insofar as there only being a local and immediate application to the group to whom Christ was speaking?

1 minute ago, R. Hartono said:

The great tribulation is our present world when the hour of temptation starts and Jesus promise to keep us from the hour of temptation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I dare not ban you from believing that you need to be in the great tribulation first but if you are left you will end up as souls under the Altar providing you dare to put your head under the guillotine.

 

Jesus said with specificity that the great tribulation starts after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 
Mat 24:17  Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 
Mat 24:18  And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 
Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 
Mat 24:20  And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 
Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 

So it cannot be now.

Just now, R. Hartono said:

If you are left behind like foolish virgins, no good for God to shorten the day as you will be destined to be martyred if you dare and your souls will be place under the altar until your the number of your fellows shall be fulfilled.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

GOD WILL SHORTEN THE DAYS FOR THE RAPTURE WISE VIRGINS / THE GREAT MULTITUDE BE4 THE THRONE. DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEART IN THIS LAST DAYS, JESUS WILL NOT BE HONOURED IF HIS BRIDE IS DEAD BODIES BEATEN BLACK AND BLUE BE4 MARRIAGE.

Again, none of this addresses how people from Revelation 7 who are said to come out of the "great tribulation" are supposedly raptured 3-1/2 years before that even starts.

1 minute ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Steve_S (and R. Hartono).

This is because this part of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the First Century a few years before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D! While there are part of the Olivet Discourse that won't be fulfilled until the Master Yeshua` the Messiah returns, some of it has started already! It's important to realize that WE'RE ALREADY IN THE "TRIBULATION!" And, this means that the "tribulation" is NOT restricted to a mere 7 years, or the "great tribulation" to a mere 3.5 years! This, then, begs the question: How can one be resurrected/raptured BEFORE the "tribulation" at all?

We are most certainly not in the great tribulation.

Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 
Mat 24:22  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

I don't think anything that is currently happening or has happened in history can be compared to the flood, which is the greatest calamity to befall humanity thus far. As such, one can confidently assert that we aren't anywhere in the vicinity of "great tribulation, such as has not been seen since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor shall ever be."

2 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

The abomination of desolation will start at the 2nd half of the 7 years of tribulation when a/c enters the Temple of God in Jerusalem and declare himself as God, the Temple shall be built at the first half of the tribulation where antichrist play as MESSIAH to the Jews first.

To understand about the AOD please read this :

I understand the AOD. The point i am making is that the "Great tribulation" does not start until after the AOD. Revelation specifically says that the people gathered there came out of the great tribulation. Therefore, they would have to have been present at least 3-1/2 years into the 70th week.

Just now, R. Hartono said:

The rapture will take place be4 the 1st seal is opened where a/c will be launched to conquer the world with fake peace,

Daniel 8:25 .... and by peace he shall destroy many:

especially 7 years peace deal between Israel-Arab enemies, we therefore see the 2 States Solution proposed by US cannot be fulfilled because it is antichrist's ransom to do that.

So if it happens before the tribulation then those in Revelation 7 cannot be people who are raptured before it begins because it says they come out of it.

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Words mean things. These words say that these people come out of the tribulation. In fact, it says they come out of the great tribulation, which Christ said doesn't begin until after the abomination of desolation.

Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 
Mat 24:17  Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 
Mat 24:18  And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 
Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 
Mat 24:20  And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 
Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 

Since these people come out of the great tribulation, which Jesus specifically and unequivocally states happens *after* the abomination of desolation, then they cannot have been raptured before before the 7 year period.

1 minute ago, R. Hartono said:

The great tribulation is our present world when the hour of temptation starts and Jesus promise to keep us from the hour of temptation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Jesus will not fetch His bride as dead bodies beaten black and blue, different story with the foolish virgins.

 

So you are saying the rapture happens during the tribulation? I'm a bit confused.

Just now, R. Hartono said:

Its the world that you are in who will be doomed in the tribulation, not you because God wants to save you from the hour of temptation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Again, these people you are saying were raptured are said to come out of the great tribulation. How can one come out of something that they aren't in?

Just now, R. Hartono said:

Here is the Bride of Christ taken to the Feast of the Lamb :

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

If you are left behind you will gamble your head at the tip of butchering knife and God will let it happen because the rapture has taken place and you are left behind, there's no wedding for you.

 

I'm still going to have to ask how one comes out of something that they aren't in. If these are people who are raptured before the tribulation, how do they come out of it?

1 minute ago, R. Hartono said:

May be it will be better if the verses will be written like this : "These are the ones who escape the beheading  of the great tribulation and washed their robes........".

It wasn't written like that though. The verse doesn't say that. The verse says that they come out of the tribulation. To come out of something you have to be in it.

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I've never heard of anyone or anything coming out of something it isn't in. It's certainly easier to say "the bible should say this," but it doesn't say that at all.

3 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

ARE YOU THE KIND OF BRIDEGROOM WHO WILL LET YOUR BRIDE BEING BEATEN BLACK AND BLUE FIRST BY WICKED PEOPLE ?

Those people in Revelation 6 are killed, what of them?

4 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

FIRST GROUP : The great multitude before the Throne, THEY ARE NOT SOULS but living people who escape the END OF THE AGE /7 years tribulation.

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

Just wondering if there's a specific reason you choose to place Revelation 7 prior to Revelation 6 Chronologically, particularly when we are told explicitly:

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Come out of is fairly definitive statement that speaks to the fact that they were in it, unless of course there is some way to come out of something one isn't in?

1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Please consider cutting back just a little on whatever it  is you are taking......

Removed from topic for getting personal.

5 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I think what sister davida says here is a good thing .     I find it rather ODD that  a man like sermonindex who claims to be protestant , YET gets his info FROM a CATHOLIC WEBSITE .

MAKES NO SENSE .     go look at the other post he did sister .  Cobalt busted him .     WHY would a protestant get their INFO from a catholic website .

WOULD YOU DAVIDA .   WOULD you get your facts you treasure so from a catholic website .      EXACTLY . 

THIS unity thing is in more folks than we think .     Cobalt asked a real good question on that other post .     

Removed from topic for getting personal.

On 6/30/2018 at 6:28 PM, Last Daze said:

Outside of the possibility of a seven year something or other, what do you see as the next prophetic event that can be tied directly to a specific prophecy?

Possibly Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38-39. The destruction of Damascus is possible. The destruction of Elam maybe?

6 minutes ago, sermonindex said:

Here are stats from 2001 stating 33,000 denominations: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

The first thing i notice from the link is that, as i suspected, independent nondenominational churches are indeed counted as denominations. This is a problem fundamentally, as many such churches that are doctrinally do not at all consider themselves disconnected from the remainder of Christianity, but instead consider themselves an intricate part of it and actively fellowship with members of other churches, both denominational and non-denominational. If claims such as this are going to be made, it's usually best to quantify things like this as best as is reasonably possible rather than lumping all into one category. Collective statistics such as this can make it seem as if churches such as this consider themselves separate from the remainder of Christianity and do not fellowship nor hold themselves accountable to others in the body. It also interweaves heretical/apostate nondenominational churches into the same web as those who are full of true followers of Christ.

11 minutes ago, sermonindex said:

I will try and find the credible sources I saw for 42,000 denominations. And yes, that would include all christianity even cults. 

Then I, personally, would refrain from using said number (though it is your prerogative to do so and I certainly hold nothing against you for it). I believe it is unreasonable for the compilers of such lists to count apostate churches amongst those that truly follow Christ.  One problem that can certainly lead to is the mistaken assumption that unity would then entail entering fellowship or even placing oneself under the teaching of those who are entirely heretical and need to hear the gospel themselves.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It is not forgotten and mercy appears in Rev 16 by way of, "and they did not repent and give Him glory" and "did not repent of their deeds". What would happen if God rained down destruction and then they did repent? Just keep up the carpet bombing? The immense pressure applied in Rev 16 is to get people to repent, as well as destroy His enemies. Just the mention of repentance at this point of the end shows God is still looking at the heart and actions.

...

Those who repent of the mark and the worship of the beast will not die but inhabit the kingdom ruled over by Jesus and the elect. There must be a great many people left alive to make up the nations over which Christ and the elect rule for 1000 years. The Jews that flee Jerusalem to the valley created when Jesus touches down on the mount of Olives are one nation. Scripture says, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

I cannot be dogmatic on such things as this. The primary issue is that there is not one iota of evidence that people do repent of receiving the mark. Also, it should once again be mentioned that those who follow after the man of sin/beast are doing so after receiving a delusion from God Himself. 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

1) There is only one fully unforgivable sin.

The question here is not what could happen, it's what does happen. What does happen 

Rev 14:9  Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 
Rev 14:10  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 

This is the prescribed end for those who worships the beast and accepts the mark. The context of Revelation 14 is important.

Rev 14:6  Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 
Rev 14:7  saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." 

There are three angels who announce to "those who dwell on the earth to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people." In other words, there is an explicit warning broadcast by supernatural beings to everyone on earth, and the content of those warnings is noted above in verses 9-10. There is ample warning given to all on earth not to take it and not to worship him.

I would also state that, while your comparison to Jonah was reasonable, the result of Jonah's message to Nineveh and the Angels message to the masses of people on earth have far divergent outcomes, though both originate from God. In other words, we are told that Nineveh repented, but that the peoples of the earth do not. In fact, they double down.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The idea from Rev 16:9 and 11, 'did not repent'.

I have a very, very difficult time taking an idea such as "people will indeed repent" from verses that explicitly state "did not repent." This position genuinely puzzles me.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

There is this;

"“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand," Rev 14 (seemingly one would have to both receive and worship for this to be binding.)

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him." Rev 16

"The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done." Rev 16

Repentance would still be an option.

Knowing the immutable character of our Father, his mercy is forever. If you repent, at any time, His mercies are yours.

Jesus says, "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mark 3

That blasphemy clause would cover the mark of the beast and the worship of the beast and his image.

 

Are we talking about what is possible or what is going to happen. I agree God's mercy is forever, but so is His word and God's revelation itself is a the revealing of His immutable truth.

Rev 14:9  Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 
Rev 14:10  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 

I see no way around this prophecy. Leaving off the conversation about whether or not it is *possible* for someone who has taken the mark to be saved, we are told here in explicit and unequivocal language that none do. The verses you post above from Revelation 16:

Rev 16:8  Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 
Rev 16:9  And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory. 

Rev 16:10  Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. 
Rev 16:11  They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds. 

In both cases no one repented.

We are also told in Revelation 20:

Rev_20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Again, no one is counted as having been saved who received the mark.

There is also this, which is a possible explanation for why this ends up being the case.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 
2Th 2:8  And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 
2Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 
2Th 2:12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

This lays out pretty frankly the fact that the followers of the beast are doing so because they refused to turn to Christ. As such, God gives them over to what they want, their own carnality most likely, and sends them a strong delusion so that they believe the lie, which in this context is probably the man of sin's claim that he is God.

I tend to avoid "what if" scenarios in regards to things like the mark, in this context meaning whether or not it is possible for someone who takes the mark to be saved. Regardless of that conversation, the bible is clear that no one who takes the mark is.

On 7/6/2018 at 6:24 PM, Brother Duke said:

What are your thoughts on the Beast of Revelation and of Daniel? 

I think the beast of Revelation 13 and the little horn of Daniel 7 are the same person.

I think the "prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:27 is him as well (the people of the prince who is to come were obviously the romans, as they were the ones who destroyed the temple in 70 A.D., so it's likely that the final world empire is some sort of revived roman empire).

I think the "king" from Daniel 11:36 onward can also be identified as him (at the very least he cannot be identified as either a king of the north or a king of the south, because in the context of the chapter to that point the kings of the north and the south were the primary actors and he is attacked by both simultaneously).

I have seen some fairly decent arguments that the king from Daniel 8:23-25 is a double reference regarding both Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) and the beast, but all I am certain with in regard to that is that it is *at least* referring to Antiochus IV.

On 7/6/2018 at 6:24 PM, Brother Duke said:

Also what are your beliefs about the Abomination of Desolation?

I think the abomination of desolation is delineated in 2 Thessalonians.2Th 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 
2Th 2:4  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 

I tend to think that there is indeed a physical temple, because I believe Antiochus IV was a type of the future man of sin and the abomination he set up was in a physical temple. I also think there's further evidence of this in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:1  Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

John was told to measure the temple. I think that's a reasonable indication that it's physical.

The biggest problem I have with the spiritualization of the temple with regards to this specific prophecy is that Christians are the Temple of God in the spiritual sense and if that is so, then the abomination would have to be set up by him in Christians, but that's the opposite of what we are told happens.

2Th 2:8  And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 
2Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 
2Th 2:12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

The people who follow the man of sin/beast are those who did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Christians are not part of this category.

This is confirmed in Revelation 13.

Rev 13:8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The only ones who will not worship him are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb. This seems to exclude those who are faithful witnesses of Christ (most or whom seem to be martyred during this same period, v 13:7).

On 7/8/2018 at 5:28 PM, Brother Duke said:

Also I am not sure about a full week.  Revelation only speaks of 1/2 a week and that is how long the man of sin has to rule.

Revelation may speak of more than one half a week.

Rev 11:3  And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

It would seem that their entire ministry cannot overlap with the beast, because the beast is able to kill them and they are resurrected three and a half days later and ascend to heaven.

Rev 11:11  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 
Rev 11:12  And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 
Rev 11:13  In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. 
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. 

Their ascension and the ensuing events ends the second woe. There are still further judgments to come after this. If one does the math on it. If their ministry started at the same time as the anti-Christ's abomination and ran concurrent (42 months equals 1,260 days exactly), then he would have to kill them on the day of final battle and then they would be resurrected and ascend three and a half days *after* Christ's return. This doesn't seem possible. Not to mention the fact that several judgments remain after their death. So, it seems likely, at the very least, that their ministry begins at some point before the 42 month period of the anti-Christ's rule, possibly long before, possibly even at the beginning of the 70th week, though one cannot be dogmatic on that point.

On 8/7/2018 at 1:52 PM, Da Puppers said:

Antiochus E did not commit the AoD; but he set up an abomination of Zeus.   Abomination to God,  is the allowing the worship of other gods by his people,  Israel.   The future AoD has nothing to do with what A man does.   It will be the collective act of the children of Israel.   I used to think that it was simply the rebuilding of the temple. 

I'd have to disagree with this, insofar as what Antiochus IV did was directly prophesied by Daniel in Chapter 11.

Dan 11:31  And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

It was also called the abomination of desolation. You can follow the prophecy of Daniel 11 with what happened in World history from the point that it was written (under the reign of Darius the Mede, his first year, from Babylon) through about verse 35. After that point, the historical record ceases to match.

On 9/12/2018 at 2:02 PM, WilliamL said:

The above passages describe the key events that lead to the Great Tribulation. The passages below describe the ensuing time period, that of the persecution against the Israelite peoples. (The Book of Daniel says nothing about the Church, which was a “mystery” yet to be revealed to both Israel and the angels. Rom. 16:25; Col. 1:26; 1 Pet. 1:12)

I think a church or part of it was definitely mentioned in Daniel 7, though not explicitly and I do agree that the church itself was a mystery then yet revealed. However, looking at a specific passage in Daniel regarding the little horn, we see.

Dan 7:21  "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 
Dan 7:22  until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. 

This of course, happens during the 70th week.

Rev 12:13  Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 
Rev 12:14  But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 
Rev 12:15  So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 
Rev 12:16  But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 

There is a definitive remnant of Jews that the dragon cannot get at. These are likely the refugees that listen to Jesus' order to flee after the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24).

The beast makes war against the saints, probably on behalf of the dragon.

Rev 13:7  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Seeing as it's virtually certain that the little horn from Daniel 7 and the beast are the same person, that both make war against the saints, and that there is a preserved remnant of Israel that are protected from the dragon and the beast, it would seem that the saints mentioned here are believers and therefore the church (probably mostly gentile, but possibly including some jews who are Christians when this all begins and are not present in israel).

On 9/12/2018 at 2:02 PM, WilliamL said:

So now to the question: we see above that the period of persecution of Israel shall be for 1260 days, but the period from the beginning of the Great Tribulation, commencing when the Abomination of Desolation is set up, shall be 1290 days until Israel is delivered. Or possibly 1335 days.

 

I don't think there's enough information to be dogmatic on those two extended periods. We can be assured that the beast himself has power for only 42 months, which is 1,260 days using 30 day months, which I think is obviously appropriate.

Rev 13:5  And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

I would be hard pressed to believe that he doesn't have authority at the point of the abomination of desolation and it's probable that his "authority" starts from that point, which means that his authority will end 42 months later. We know exactly what happens to end his authority as well.

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 
Rev 19:20  Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 

So it's reasonable to posit that the period from the abomination to destruction of the beast and his army is 42 months and that this period is directly equivalent to 1,260 days.

Daniel 12 is pretty explicit in its language that there are 1,290 days after the abomination is set up.

Dan 12:11  "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 
Dan 12:12  Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 

So then we're left with some questions, or at least, i am.

Does the abomination happen  75 days earlier than the midpoint? This would require reading "middle of the week" in Daniel 9:27 more ambiguous than exact, which isn't really a problem technically speaking. If you look at a 7 day week, you can call "wednesday" the middle, but the range of that "middle" would actually be 24 hours or 1/7 of the week. You could also be more specific and say "12 p.m. on wednesday," which would be the exact mid point. The language in Daniel just says middle, but it could theoretically mean either.

Does the abomination of desolation happen at the exact midpoint of the week? This would require reading "middle of the week" in Daniel 9:27 as specifically exact down to the day, at least, if not the hour, which would then lead one to conclude that the 75 day period is not part of the 70th week at all, but is a period afterwards.

2 hours ago, Whistleblower said:

I know how to read. Do you know how to study? One will never attain Truth in English because; English is the best double talking lawyer language that there is on the planet; that can & does cause reasonable Doubt in anything & everything, including Truth.

Its Satans language to fleece the sheep lol

If Our Father Love desired His Words to be delivered in English, He would havr sent them in English.period

Bibles come in ALL Languages : )

Removed from thread.