Permie

Here we are on post #100 and no one has been able to identify/name the Spirit that God breathed into man to make us living souls. I wish you the best of luck with your request. May I suggest a different thread though?

The answer is, no. The mother is not responsible for the soul of the child...techincally. Technically speaking the baby's soul is not yet developed. The soul is composed of the mind (the thinking part), the emotions (the feeling part), and the will (the moving part). Since unborn children are not developed fully then their souls are not fully developed. I think your confusion lies between the division of the soul and spirit, and the proper identifications of each part. This is where we are not communicating. This thread is not about the soul at all. You appear to have made it that way... Can you address the subjects of my first response to you? Start a thread, if you want.

so, then why some almost 20 post later are you still talking about the wrong kind of "fear" of the Lord in respect to Christians and our love for God? if you know what it means to Fear the Lord, why are you still making this strawman argument? I'd like to know why you are asking me questions. You have told me that I was a heretic and to go away. I have left you to God. Remember.

I know I can. Try it and find out.

you dont seem to understand that to "fear" the Lord does not mean to be afraid of Him, it means to respect Him. One of the definitions of fear is "reverential awe". now, do you want to tell me we should not have reverential awe of the Lord? See post 51, second paragraph.

Ahhhh... thank you! Your saying that made me smile!

The answer is, no. The mother is not responsible for the soul of the child...techincally. Technically speaking the baby's soul is not yet developed. The soul is composed of the mind (the thinking part), the emotions (the feeling part), and the will (the moving part). Since unborn children are not developed fully then their souls are not fully developed. I think your confusion lies between the division of the soul and spirit, and the proper identifications of each part. This is where we are not communicating. This thread is not about the soul at all.

Oh I see what you mean now lol thank you!!!! Permie, you'll have to forgive us. I don't think any of understood what you meant by "maintaining 2 souls". Because from a spiritual perspective, the word maintain can mean something totally different when talking about a person's soul. So if you have a handful of people not understanding, then there is a road block and the threads will usually get derailed. Some of us can only go as far as we can understand and with all the heat going on lately, people are extra picky and extra careful so you need to OVEREXPLAIN like everything!! LOL But I'm still lost in transition trying to figure out what a mother does to nurture an unborn baby's soul? Would you mind explaining that? Thank you for your graciousness, JamiLea. Sometimes when over explaining people get upset too, like... what, you think I'm ignorant? Just sayin... Then, sometimes I will put a lot of thought into a post and it is ignored except for the part that a finger can be pointed at. (People are funny. That includes me!) The conversation was about the Spirit, and I don't know why OneLight brought up the subject of an unborn child yet... what he was looking for, but it now may be lost forever? Anyway, the mother's blood nourishes the baby. The blood, not only contains life, but it also carry's whatever else is put into the mother's body...good or bad. If the mother died, the soul of the baby may not live as a person either. I was not saying that the mother influenced the baby's soul... I don't know about that. I was only talking about how the Spirit would also be present with the baby too due to the presence of life (blood) in the mother. Without going into too much more I hope that made some sense. This thread is about the Spirit specifically.

Uh....what? Do you believe that the soul is the blood, or something? LOL, no. Did you miss OneLight's post above? Life is in the blood, which is scriptural. From an online source: If you wish to believe that the unborn child has no soul, that is your right to believe that. I personally believe the unborn child does have a soul and due to that the mother has two souls to care for while she is pregnant. I know that was addressed to Ovedya but all I can say is 'What'? No one said a fetus doesn't have a soul; of course they do. Permie, you don't seem to comprehend anything except your own words. That isn't conducive to learning and growing in the Lord. Just what part of the above in red did you not comprehend? This is a matter of comprehension, not agreement. If you notice also in that statement, I said: if you wish to believe. Is that indicating that I desire agreement? This whole thread was started because I was told I was in error. I want that to be proven, if it is the truth. I would think it only stands to reason that the two bodies that the mother is caring for also includes two souls. At least to me. That this detail escaped comprehension is nearly unbelievable! I don't know if you are stupid or not. All I know is that not enough "attempt" at comprehending without also including biting, sniping, and cutting remarks is being made. You said: No one said a fetus doesn't have a soul; of course they do. Yes, I would think that everyone would also know that too and would then understand the intentions of my words. But, no... Instead it was: huh?, what?, got scripture?

Permie, your theology is a bit strange to me. Do you know that it means when it says "But the fearful..." in Revelation 21:8? It means "the cowardly." As OneLight pointed out, you cannot engage in two completely contradictory activities at the same time. One cannot love and hate at the same time. Therefore they are opposites. However one can fear God and love Him at the same time. The type of fear described in 1John 4:18 is the fear of the judgment, which is mentioned in verse 17. This is not "common fear," but very specific fear of God's judgment. Perfect love casts out fear because of God's reigning within us. Therefore there is no fear of judgment, because the infilling of God - who is love - casts it out. I think that a definition of "fear" is needed here, because there's a lot of confusion about what type of fear we're talking about. I agree there does need to be a definition of fear to know what we are talking about. I see cowards as those who will not step up and obey God. Could you do me a favor? Would you post the scripture you are talking about as you are speaking? Please? I'd GREATLY appreciate it. Which verses are you referring to? I was responding to the ones that you had posted earlier. The ones I mentioned above are 1 John 4:16-18, and the one you posted was Rev. 21:8. Incidentally, the "cowardly" in Rev. 21:8 are unbelievers, not believers. Okay, Thank you. The additional scriptures you brought in and including the one that I first brought forward are: 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:16-18 To reiterate the point you were making, I've copied and pasted what you wrote. This is just so we have some continuity and maybe cut down on any confusion. You are right. Verse 17 is specifically speaking of judgment, and verse 18 tells us, as I read it, that those who have fear have torment. Do you restrict that torment to the time of judgment, or do you think that those who sin now can also be tormented (and torment others) due to their sins? I italicized part of your above quote just so I could reference it. As I read verse 17, perfected love doesn't fear judgment because of a qualifier: The qualification for escaping judgment is, according to this verse, being in this world and being the same as Christ. Is that what you are meaning in the italicized comment? But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 Why would the verse repeat the unbelieving twice?

Then tell me please why there is no fear in perfected love? Because pure love has none. It neither has hate, jealousy, pride, covertness, selfish ambitions, contentions and the like. These also are not the opposite of love, yet true love lacks them. Yes, I agree. What causes greed? Fear of lack, perhaps? What causes lying? Fear that the truth will cause a problem? As you probably know, I believe that at our core, our real selves is love. Perfected Love is what we are meant to be. With that belief of mine in mind, please consider: Anger is love frustrated. Lust is love unfulfilled. Greed is love unsatisfied. Lying is love untrusted. Sloth is love without a purpose. Revenge is love betrayed. Pride is love contained: bottled up in self. Jealousy is love without a foundation. All of those errors of unrighteous anger, lust, greed, lying, sloth, revenge, pride, jealousy and the list could go on are all are sins which are corrected by perfected love wherein no fear exists.

This is an American, English speaking site isn't it?

Here... maybe this can be rephrased: The unborn baby has a soul. The mother has a soul. With me? There's two souls. The mother carries the unborn child, whom has a soul. The mother still has her own soul. Is she not maintaining two souls? Maintaining: caring for, nurturing, etc... If the mother doesn't care for herself (maintain herself), what happens to the baby?

The topic is being lost with this siderail... thank you, OneLight. OneLight, What was your purpose for bringing up the baby in the womb?

Uh....what? Do you believe that the soul is the blood, or something? LOL, no. Did you miss OneLight's post above? Life is in the blood, which is scriptural. From an online source: If you wish to believe that the unborn child has no soul, that is your right to believe that. I personally believe the unborn child does have a soul and due to that the mother has two souls to care for while she is pregnant. I know that was addressed to Ovedya but all I can say is 'What'? No one said a fetus doesn't have a soul; of course they do. Permie, you don't seem to comprehend anything except your own words. That isn't conducive to learning and growing in the Lord. How is it not known that the mother is maintaining two souls!? We have brains! Let's figure some things out... think first a bit. Is that too hard? Am I being baited with intentionally "playing stupid" questions so that when I answer I can then be attacked for the what should be an OBVIOUS answer?

Uh....what? Do you believe that the soul is the blood, or something? LOL, no. Did you miss OneLight's post above? Life is in the blood, which is scriptural. From an online source: If you wish to believe that the unborn child has no soul, that is your right to believe that. I personally believe the unborn child does have a soul and due to that the mother has two souls to care for while she is pregnant.

Permie, your theology is a bit strange to me. Do you know that it means when it says "But the fearful..." in Revelation 21:8? It means "the cowardly." As OneLight pointed out, you cannot engage in two completely contradictory activities at the same time. One cannot love and hate at the same time. Therefore they are opposites. However one can fear God and love Him at the same time. The type of fear described in 1John 4:18 is the fear of the judgment, which is mentioned in verse 17. This is not "common fear," but very specific fear of God's judgment. Perfect love casts out fear because of God's reigning within us. Therefore there is no fear of judgment, because the infilling of God - who is love - casts it out. I think that a definition of "fear" is needed here, because there's a lot of confusion about what type of fear we're talking about. I agree there does need to be a definition of fear to know what we are talking about. I see cowards as those who will not step up and obey God. Could you do me a favor? Would you post the scripture you are talking about as you are speaking? Please? I'd GREATLY appreciate it.

Not sure about fear. That's a human problem. I would think that all spiritual woes are a human problem. It is my opinion that fear is the root of all sins as fear is the true opposite of love. Many think that it is hate that is the opposite, but it is fear. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 Hate is the opposite of love, even though fear is also a powerful emotion. We can love and fear at the same time. We can not love and hate at the same time. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility. Thank you for proving what I said: Many think that it is hate that is the opposite, ... When we fear God we will obey Him. There is no sense in what you say. One can fear the Lord and love Him. One can not hate the Lord and love Him. I note again the issue with semantics. I have no disagreement here with what you said, except of course your first comment. Then tell me please why there is no fear in perfected love?

Not sure about fear. That's a human problem. I would think that all spiritual woes are a human problem. It is my opinion that fear is the root of all sins as fear is the true opposite of love. Many think that it is hate that is the opposite, but it is fear. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 Hate is the opposite of love, even though fear is also a powerful emotion. We can love and fear at the same time. We can not love and hate at the same time. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility. Thank you for proving what I said: Many think that it is hate that is the opposite, ... When we fear God we will obey Him. He just proved that hate is the opposite of love, when you claimed that fear was the opposite of love. The type of fear spoken of in Proverbs is "a healthy respect." It's not the type that causes people to cower in a corner and pee their pants. And as is usual the proving scripture was ignored that said that there is no fear in perfected love. And just why would that be? As for the healthy respect, correct, I agree. Same holds true, when we respect God we will obey Him. If we don't, well there's plenty of scripture about that. The first whom are thrown in the lake of fire are the fearful. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Not sure about fear. That's a human problem. I would think that all spiritual woes are a human problem. It is my opinion that fear is the root of all sins as fear is the true opposite of love. Many think that it is hate that is the opposite, but it is fear. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 Hate is the opposite of love, even though fear is also a powerful emotion. We can love and fear at the same time. We can not love and hate at the same time. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility. Thank you for proving what I said: Many think that it is hate that is the opposite, ... When we fear God we will obey Him.

There is no life without breath is there? I never said there was, but only Adam was created out of the dust and needed life. Eve was created out of living tissue of Adam, his rib, creating life from life. When creation is in the womb of a mother, life is already there, without the need to breathe air as we do. The needed oxygen is passed onto the child through the mother. Do you agree? Yes, the breath is in the blood. Life is in the blood as scripture tells us. The mother maintains two souls and the baby's spirit is totally dependent upon the mother's spirit during this time and cannot exist apart/separate from the life that the mother has, or by proxy if necessary... i.e. machines for premies, until it takes it's first breath. Whereby giving it's own blood life-oxygen through their own intake of breath. The rib, the bone of Adam, too has marrow. Bone marrow, I think one of it's purposes is to, creates blood. I never said you did. I had asked a question.

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. " (1 Thess. 5:23) Also: Luke 1:46-47; Heb. 4:12; Zech. 12:1; Job 32:8; Prov. 20:27; John 4:24; Rom. 8:16; 1:9; 1 Cor. 14:14-16; 16:18; 2 Cor. 7:13. Perhaps I misspoke and it isn't the forgiving so much as the forgetting that I need to do. I didn't look up the other scripture (nor plan too), but I do thank you for the one you posted.

There is no life without breath is there? In man, yes. In God it's "There is no breath without life." Life precedes breath in God, whereas in man breath preceded life. So if you're trying to say that the very breath that God breathes into man in creation was the divine nature of God, you would be in error. Man became a "living soul" through God's animation by breath. A living soul does not contain the life of God. This is where you need to understand that man was created as a tripartite being having three parts: a body, a soul, and a spirit. In creation God's breath animated Adam's flesh, enlivened man's soul, and created within him his human spirit, which is the vessel to contain God. Were man created with the divine essence then man would not have had to eat of the tree of life, which was there in the garden for him to partake of. Therefore man, without God as his indwelling, is not divine. Not in the least bit or in any aspect. Not even before Adam fell. Constantly the barrage of "provide supporting scripture" has been leveled to denounce things that are said here. I have been providing scripture, which has often been ignored. Now, I ask you: where is the supporting scripture? I could give you some regarding the "human spirit" that you mentioned, but that probably would go over like a lead foot. So, if you would, please provide supporting scripture for what you said above. Also, my bible tells me that we are: soul, mind, strength (body) and heart. If I seem short with you, Ovedya, it just may be that I need to work a bit on that forgiveness thing... being accused of having an agenda, as well as the other insults leveled here lately have yet to roll off my back. If you can, please forgive my slowness also in forgiving.

Not sure about fear. That's a human problem. I would think that all spiritual woes are a human problem. It is my opinion that fear is the root of all sins as fear is the true opposite of love. Many think that it is hate that is the opposite, but it is fear. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18

There is no life without breath is there?