doubting_tommy

That doesn't sound like what people experience when they find other people attractive.

What does it mean to lust after someone? Is it merely to find them attractive?

God calls homosexual acts an abomination. God never explicitly refers to homosexual feelings in the entire Bible.

The way that God views their 'sin' may not necessarily be the same as the way that you view it.

I agree with the logic of your argument - it looks inconsistent to believe that homosexuality alone should be exempt if we are going to condemn the other people in the examples you give. My view is that to be a follow of Christ must be about making decisions - using our free will to make choices: choices about learning about the Bible's message, studying it and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. The question then is whether or not one can choose to experience certain kinds of thoughts. If one can choose whether one experiences homosexual desire, for example, then one is responsible for whether one is homosexual and if experiencing homosexual desire is against the teaching of Jesus, then someone who chooses to experience homosexual desire is not following Christ. This is the point at which my view parts ways with yours, as I believe that while we are responsible for how we act upon our desires, and while there are things we can choose to do which will minimise or eliminate certain kinds of desire, I believe that we are not responsible for all of the thoughts that occur to us or the feelings that we have. We know that this is true in at least some cases, involving severely mentally ill people, for example. I don't believe someone who experiences homosexual desire is necessarily responsible for that experience, so I do believe they could be a follower of Jesus if they chose not to act on it (assuming that Jesus is opposed to homosexuality, which seems a reasonable assumption).

Surely it's more like commending someone who was very tempted to rob a bank but chose not to because he believed it would be wrong to do so?

I'm skeptical of that claim. Could you provide a link to one of these studies? Do you think the fact that the Catholic view implies that God does make people gay is evidence against the plausibility of that view?

My understanding is that the view of the Catholic Church (I'm not as familiar with other denominations) is that homosexuality itself is not sinful, but to act on it is. It always seemed unfair to me to think that God would create some people naturally inclined towards sinning in a way that others are not, which is what seems to be implied by the Catholic view.

I was under the impression that Muslims believe that Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing and ever-present. Some Deists believe this too, as do members of the Bahá'í and Sikh faiths.

I would use it as part of my reflections when considering whether the God of the Bible seems to have the sorts of qualities that I would expect a perfectly moral being to have. It seems intuitively unjust to me to condemn people to Hell for all eternity, for example, but if I was able to understand how that intuition might be mistaken, it would make the God of the Bible more plausible, in my personal view. OK. How do you know that your perception of what a perfectly moral being should be like is correct? I don't - I might be completely wrong. I don't think we can step outside of our intuitions though (although our intuitions can change after lots of careful reflection).

Sin is spiritual death/separation from God. God is absolutely holy and there is no sin in God. When Adam was created, he was created sinless and in perfect relationship and fellowship with God. God is the Lifegiver and Adam had eternal life to begin with. But when Adam sinned, he was cut off from the Lifegiver and as a result he died spiritually. As a result, man has inherited from Adam a sinful nature. Adam was the federal head for all mankind in the garden and when Adam fell all mankind fell in him. He essentially poisoned the well for all of us. This separated man spiritually from God. As a result, there is a curse of death that hung over the head of all mankind. The only way for the relationship to be restored is for God’s justice against sin to be satisfied. God is holy and just in an absolute way. And it is the justness and holiness that stand at the center of a perfect system of divine justice that demands sin to be punished. A penalty must be paid and that pentalty is death. The problem is that mankind cannot die for his own sin. If all of humanity were to die for their sin, it would not be enough. The problem comes from us. So the solution cannot come from us. The solution to the problem of sin must come from somewhere outside of us. What man needs is a sinless person to die for him. Someone whose sacrifice God will accept on our behalf and pay the penalty for us in full. That is where Jesus comes in. Jesus, who was/is God in the flesh came to earth to undo what Adam did. Jesus was the federal head for all mankind on the cross. The Bible tells us in Rom. 5:12-21 that Jesus was the “last Adam.” It tells us that Jesus’ sinless obedience satisfied the justice of God and paid the pentalty for the curse of death that hung over the head of corporate humanity. Once God’s justice was satisfied, we were redeemed from the curse of death and the way of salvation was opened up for us. God accepted what Jesus did on our behalf on the basis of Jesus death on the cross, God extends the offer of salvation to anyone willing to accept it. Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection opened up the way to God. Jesus is the way to God. It is through Him that are able to finally have a relationship with our Creator. It is a free gift that we cannot be good enough to merit and we cannot earn by anything we do. All we need to do is reach out and accept it. None of us know the nuts and bolts about every pertaining to how salvation was made possible. I simply gave you what the Bible says. It is a mystery, but that should not stop you from receiving salvation. I use a lot of things in my day to day life that I cannot explain. That doesn’t stop me from using ATMs, using a flash drive or turning on a computer. I can’t explain the mechanics of how my car works, but not understanding that doesn’t stop me from driving. Thanks, that was very comprehensive. I'll have to ponder it, obviously, since it's pretty complicated stuff (at least to me).

Tommy, suppose you find the answer that explains it to you in such a way that it makes sense to you. What would you do with this knowledge? I would use it as part of my reflections when considering whether the God of the Bible seems to have the sorts of qualities that I would expect a perfectly moral being to have. It seems intuitively unjust to me to condemn people to Hell for all eternity, for example, but if I was able to understand how that intuition might be mistaken, it would make the God of the Bible more plausible, in my personal view.

While I don't believe that we can infer the kinds of qualities you describe, even assuming that that is correct for the sake of argument, we're still very far away from the God of the Bible. There is nothing in nature alone, for example, which suggests that the Creator of the Universe cares whether I believe in it or not. For that, I need the Bible. When we consider the atmosphere, the lithosphere the biosphere and the hydrosphere, and if we are willing to contemplate the possibility that an intelligent creator is the causal agent for all of them, the question is what kind of creator could have done all of this? It would have taken a creator that is greater than what he has created. It would take a creator far greater in intelligence than us (we are still discovering things about our world), greater in power and also one who possesses an infinite presence in order to sustain and guide all of it at once. The uniform and consistent order of the universe speaks to a plan and a purposee. The movement of planets and stars are very predictable, the order of the seasons, the way the biological life interacts and adapts to the changes of the seasons and changes of environment. There is a program to it all. Sure, it won't reveal God in the same way the Bible does. It isn't meant to. It points to a creator, though. It points you in the right direction, just like the pinhole of light in the dark cave. The natural world gives you a point of departure on your journey to seek God. It is the starting point, if you will. Nature reveals that it has a Creator, and it is the Bible that tells who that Creator is and His desire to be in relationship/fellowship with you. In theological circles, we speak of "general revelation" to refer to the witness of the created order. General revelation is what we can see and know about God through the natural world. We also speak of "special revelation" which is what can be known about God through the Scriptures, the Bible. Both work in tandem with each other. Many who reject the general revelation in nature, also reject the special revelation found in Scripture. I have never run into anyone that accepts one without the other. Right, but loads of people believe in a God with those qualities for precisely the reasons you give, but most of those people don't believe in the same God as the God of the Bible. My understanding was that these people would still go to Hell.

I don't have a Bible to hand. The part I find difficult to understand is how exactly Jesus' death provides salvation. I don't really get the metaphysics of it. Not having a Bible is not a problem. There are plenty available on the Internet. Try this site: http://www.biblegateway.com/ Just enter the reference, like John 3:16, in the search box to see a verse, John 3 will give you the whole chapter, etc. You can also step through a book one chapter at a time. The default Bible version is for the New International Version (NIV) which is pretty easy to read, but there are other versions available too. Thanks for that.

I don't understand how someone else can carry my sins in their body. And I don't understand how that would work in terms of accounting for all sins for the rest of time (since, when Jesus died, I hadn't begun sinning yet).

I don't have a Bible to hand. The part I find difficult to understand is how exactly Jesus' death provides salvation. I don't really get the metaphysics of it.

Thanks for this explanation; I'll have to think about it.

I don't think of it as negotiating. I just don't see why the last breath should be the point at which you can no longer redeem yourself. If a person suffers in Hell for a thousand years and asks God to forgive them their sins and so on, then I don't see why God wouldn't simply look into their heart, see that they are truly repentant and then say "Okay, you've suffered enough, you can come to Heaven now."

Because God loves me, and if I loved someone I would not consign them to an infinite amount of suffering. Like all other relationships, it's a two way street. He requires you to love Him back and to follow Him, to confess your belief in Jesus and ask His forgiveness. God DOES love you, and all of His children, but He makes it clear what you must do to spend eternity with Him. Anyone who goes to hell does so by their own hand. Not all relationships are "two way streets". Some love is unconditional. I think God probably loves me unconditionally. I find it difficult to imagine how one would love someone unconditionally and refuse to save them if they were asked to save them. It's not the going to Hell part that seems strange to me - rather, it's the fact that you can't escape once you're there.

I don't see why hell needs to be infinitely bad. Why wouldn't God forgive someone who goes to Hell and then repents, since God is capable of infinite compassion? Do you have a Bible? Can you please look in the book of John and read chapter3:16 and tell me what you think it means? Or you can google it online--- Thanks:) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." I don't really understand what it means, to be honest, though I recognize it as a central, perhaps the central tenet of Christianity.

Because God loves me, and if I loved someone I would not consign them to an infinite amount of suffering.

I don't see why hell needs to be infinitely bad. Why wouldn't God forgive someone who goes to Hell and then repents, since God is capable of infinite compassion?

My personal belief is that a perfectly just and loving God would not condemn souls to Hell for all of eternity. If I'm wrong about that, which of course I could be, then I'm puzzled as to why I have such strong intuitions to the contrary, given that my intuitions seem to be motivated by precisely the sorts of sentiments advocated by Jesus in the Bible; it is because I think that love and forgiveness are of paramount importance that I cannot understand how a perfectly just and loving God could make it so that some people are permanently beyond redemption.

That looks consistent with the idea that one can be saved by acting as God would want them to act, which I take it is not the same thing as the idea of salvation through faith alone. So, for example, God says "thou shalt not kill", but a Hindu person who abides by that commandment even though they don't recognize it as coming from God looks to meet the criterion set out in your quotation. On the contrary, it takes more faith to live as one is directed through His Spirit than it does through His Word. Those who have His word can point back to scripture and say "God instructed us here", while those who do not have His word, but are solely led by His Spirit, do not have anything written to fall back on. When we are being led by His Spirit in situation and do not have His word ready available, do obey through faith alone. You must also realize that most of the world has access to His words, and by their rejection of His word, they are not of the group who never had that chance. They have already chosen not to accept Him by rejecting His words. In doing so, they create their own "God" despite the fact that their "God" is not the same God of the bible. There is no universalism, or many ways to God. So I guess then what I need to know more about is what it means to be directed through God's spirit. How do you know whether someone is being directed through God's spirit or not? Once you have truly accepted Christ, His Spirit will be with you. He will make Himself known to His own. To those who do not have a chance to choose, those who have never heard the message, He is still able to make Himself known in your heart, He confirms the choice you make when it is of Him. You, my friend, have His word and His witness and need to accept Him with all your heart. Of course I agree that I am fully responsible if I choose to reject God. What I'm trying to imagine is what it would be like to be directed by God in the way you describe.

There are philosophical arguments for and against the concept of inferring a design from the "perfection" of nature. I'm assuming for the sake of argument, however, that it's true that we can infer a designer by looking at nature. My original point was that this alone doesn't get us very far, since there are all sorts of Gods that are compatible with that evidence. Lots of versions of God are said to be the creator of the universe, but only one of those can be the right one.