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Could you tell me about this principle Nebula? I was reading a footnote in my Ryrie Study Bible about a certain principle that has me completely dumbfounded . As a question what does the footnote say?

Not to split hairs, but there is a distinction between Satan's throne and the synagogue of Satan. These "small" details are what causes such misunderstanding concerning the Scriptures. One must take care when handling the Word of God.

A synagogue is a building for religious purposes. The Knesset is a political body, like our Congress. Now, if Rothchild built the synagogue, that makes Rothchild over the Knesset, if anything - not the Knesset over him and what he does! The Knesset first convened on 14 February 1949, following the 20 January elections, succeeding the Assembly of Representatives that had functioned as the Jewish community's parliament during the Mandate era. The term "Knesset" is derived from the ancient Great Assembly or Great Synagogue (Hebrew: כְּנֶסֶת הַגְּדוֹלָה‎) which according to Jewish tradition was an assembly of 120 scribes, sages, and prophets, in the period from the end of the Biblical prophets to the time of the development of Rabbinic Judaism - about two centuries ending c. 70 CE. There is, however, no organizational continuity and - aside from the number of members - little similarity, as the ancient Knesset was an essentially religious, completely unelected body. The pharisees were religious?Who would have known it? I wonder how much more religious were the pharisees 2000 years ago than the members of the knesset today. I understand your thing about the Rothschilds and especially if you add in the Hapsburgs the Warburgs and the Windsors..... but I really don't see the connection with Jerusalem.... The Rothschilds have built things all over the world, not just Israel. I just understand the Rothchilds built a house for the synagogue of Satan which happens to rule Jerusalem. Strangelove brought up the connection with Jerusalem. And for those of you who have labled me a jew hater (and im not speaking of you other one),my friend Strangelove is a jew. And so is many others who seem to be some call self loathing Jews, not my phrase mind you but we see if in George Soros and many others who think Jersualem is meaningless and insignificant. The Knesset does not rule over all of Jerusalem remember its a divided city and at the end of age when Messiah returns He returns through the east gate of the city, He rules from His throne in Jerusalem, all will come to Zion to learn His ways. Where did Messiah say the synagogue of satan was? it wasn't in Jerusalem. The synagogue of Satan was in Pergamon, and Hitler moved the whole thing to Germany. So right now the synagogue of Satan is in Berlin. There are two mentions of the synagogue of Satan in Revelation. 1) Ephesus "and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9) 2) Philadelphia "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie." (Rev 3:9)

That is patently untrue...Christ's return happens after the 7th trumpet is blown...... Revelation 11 The Seventh Trumpet 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever." 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth." 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. Rev 11:15 - "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever." We can use "His Messiah" also if you wish. We know who our Lord is, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. The question then becomes, "Who is His Christ (Messiah?) This is a question that needs to be answered. Have we not read, "Till we all come...unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.?" Are you asking WHO is the Messiah? The Father and the Son are two aspects of the Trinity. There is NO unknown Messiah. By the Scriptures I am not seeing an unknown Messiah (Christ.) We see it written, "Till we (plural) all come...unto a perfect man (singular,) unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." The Lord Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Mat 24:35) And, "the Scripture cannot be broken." (Jn 10:35) So, the question then remains, "Where does this perfect man, this one that comes unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ come in? Who has taught us that these Scriptures will not be fulfilled? Again, there is no unknown Christ.

That is patently untrue...Christ's return happens after the 7th trumpet is blown...... Revelation 11 The Seventh Trumpet 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever." 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small

You are right sister, I should have simply said 7 + 1, as I explained in the post in response to Man. The real problem arises when we see that the "last trump" is not included in the "seven" in the Book of Revelation. For as it is written, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1Cor 15:51-52) Coupled with, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Thes 4:15-17) If it is at the "last trump," and not under any of the "seven trumpets," that the Lord Jesus Himself physically returns, what does that do to much of the picture that has been painted concerning "the coming of the son of man?" I know you are familiar with, "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4:13c) Maybe we should consider where this "one" comes in?

The 1st day of the week is not the 8th day, it's the 1st day. There's only seven days in a week. You should be careful about adding things to scripture. From what I understand, it's not a good thing. I guess you can more easily put it this way 7 + 1. Or as Golddust put it, "a new beginning." But 7 + 1 does = 8. It is the eighth trump. And brother it is either an adding to or a taking away from the Scripture, we must be careful in both directions. There is much to be said with respect to 7 + 1 in the Scripture if we would but look. And, again 7 + 1 = 8. The "last trump" is not of the seven, therefore it is the eighth trump signaling a NEW BEGINNING.

where do you get the conclusion that the rapture happens before rev.4-22? it is talking about things that happen in the future from john's perspective. besides when Paul talks about the rapture in thessalonians he gave a warning not to be fooled, jesus return happens at the end of the trib and that is when we raptures his people. Your right, it doesn't happen before Revelation 4-20:9, it happens at the last trump (1Cor 15:52) but it seems we cannot determine when this last trump will arrive. By the way, the last trump is the eighth trump, as eight is God's number for resurrection. And it happens at the end of the Kingdom age. Can you show this with Scripture? I never read about any 8th trump in prophecy. In the Book of Revelation we see seven trumpets, but no where under those trumpets do we discover a resurrection of all the saints from all time. During the Kingdom age there will also be those who are saved and experience death, if the last trump had previously sounded where would the one's who died during the Kingdom age's resurrection be? Discovering the significant of the number 8 in Scripture ... "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Gen 2:1-3) By this we can see that we are in fact still in the "seventh day," in accordance to God, for He is still resting from having made this temporal perfected creation. However, there is a time coming when He will rise from His rest and work for we see it written, "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new." (Rev 21:5) This is the Lord again at work, and it is on the day after the seventh day has ended, or the eighth day. In 2 Peter 2:5 it is recorded, "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly." This being a type or shadow of resurrection, Noah being the eighth, which speaks of the old having passed and the new having come. We find recorded in Revelation, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed." (Rev 13:3) That being coupled with, "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth." (Rev 17:11a) As most all would agree the one "wounded to death" is the same as the one which is proclaimed to be "the eighth" and it is a resurrected one. We see that the Lord Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week, or the eighth day. There is much to be discovered regarding the number eight in Scripture but it does, most certainly. speak of resurrection. Therefore, the "last trump" being sounded at the total and complete resurrection of everyone forever can only be the eighth trump.

where do you get the conclusion that the rapture happens before rev.4-22? it is talking about things that happen in the future from john's perspective. besides when Paul talks about the rapture in thessalonians he gave a warning not to be fooled, jesus return happens at the end of the trib and that is when we raptures his people. Your right, it doesn't happen before Revelation 4-20:9, it happens at the last trump (1Cor 15:52) but it seems we cannot determine when this last trump will arrive. By the way, the last trump is the eighth trump, as eight is God's number for resurrection. And it happens at the end of the Kingdom age.

There is much said in Scripture about a "cup." But as it is a "golden cup" which, as you said, points to the Person and Nature of God we see the Lord Jesus referring to a cup, "and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Mat 26:39) And again the Lord said to the disciples, with respect to a cup, "can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized." (Mar 10:38b-39) The cup the Lord is referring to here is that which contains the will of God for His life. And He told the disciples they too would drink of that same cup, which was the will of God for the disciples lives. By this we can see that a "golden cup" should contain the will of God for the believers life, that is it should contain "the water of life." (Rev 22:17) However, the "golden cup" in the hand of this woman does not contain "the water of life" it is full of "abominations and filthiness of her fornication." There is death in her cup. The "hand" does signify ministry along with fellowship, blessing, safety, love, etc. This hand should be "holding forth the Word of Life" (Php 2:16,) but we see it is not. The appearance of this woman does not seem to match up with her being anything that could be classified as a secular government. She is however joined together with a "scarlet colored beast." Any thoughts anyone? I see what you mean about the cup. Looks like that would be an interesting study in itself. As for the beast I think it is all the unsaved peoples of the earth as in Rev17:15. Though could be wrong as I have not put a lot of study into it. I do see the woman as the corrupt religious system of the world though and can see why God says "Come out of her ,my people....". If there is any "rule" to interpreting symbolic prophecy then we would have to understand, from the four "beasts" that rose up out of the sea in the Book of Daniel, that the "beast" this woman abides upon here has to be representative of secular, that is worldly government. So, if that is the case then we have a picture of some "woman" who is coupled with a "beast," so the "woman" cannot, in and of herself, be any particular country or nation, as she is riding upon secular government." We, as believers, cannot come out of the entire world so the question remains who is the "her" that we are commanded to "come out of?" Rev 17;18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. She is a city. How is the scripture spells it out so clearly but yet there are those who can not endure sound doctrin? Not even a verse as simple as this? Yes, she is a city. But I guess we would need to understand the Greek word polis, interpreted city. It means a town (properly with walls, of greater or lesser size):- city. Therefore, she is a city, a town, which has walls. We then need to understand what does that mean before the Lord. Mostly just wanted to bring this portion of the thread forward. Moving on ...

Perspective - Paul was raised under the teaching of the Torah, though, as a devout Pharisee, before this time. So it is incorrect to portray his knowledge of Scripture as having been void of human teaching. A lot of people have come through this Board with some strange doctrines and strange priorities in what they chose to converse on who claimed having been taught by the Holy Spirit and not from man. Jesus is the Christ. Paul was not raised under the teaching of the Torah, Saul was. Paul said that his teaching did not come from man. Looking at Paul, as still being Saul, seems to be how you came to the above false conclusion. They were different men. Saul the old. Paul the new. Having had a similar born again experience, I fully believe what Paul said about the writings of Paul. 1 cor 14:37-38 Praise the Lord! Excellent seeing. "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." (1Cor 15:46)

Perspective - Paul was raised under the teaching of the Torah, though, as a devout Pharisee, before this time. So it is incorrect to portray his knowledge of Scripture as having been void of human teaching. A lot of people have come through this Board with some strange doctrines and strange priorities in what they chose to converse on who claimed having been taught by the Holy Spirit and not from man. Sorry Neb, only just saw this reply from about a month ago. I think I need to clarify....I was not implying that everything Paul knew of Torah was purely from the Spirit, I thought that was a 'given'. Yes Paul was extremely well versed in Torah, and knew the teachings under the Old Covenant inside out...but when he came to faith in Yeshua, all the knowledge he had gained, needed to be sifted through the guidence of the Holy Spirit...he knew the Letter, but not the Spirit, and his own testimony to that fact is that this revelation knowledge did not come to him through the teachings of men, even his original teachers of Torah, but through the divine channel of G-d Himself. Galatians 1:11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; 14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. 15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus. This is often the crux of a Believers life...if their testimony of their Saviour comes through personal relationship and revelation, or is accessed largely through teaching, knowledge and intellect. In the former, there is 'utter certainty', in the latter there is no 'inner witness'. For me, Paul is probably one of the most amazing men ever to have walked the earth, and what we owe to him and his dogged determination to fulfill his destiny and walk the path stretched out before him is a testimony to the extent of the grace of G-d active in this mans life. Time and time again I wrestle with some of the concepts he patiently tries to get across, but I know that eventually if I can just see what he is getting at it will be as much a revelation to me as it was to him, and can be life-changing and so fulfilling spiritually, often making clear and solid a shadow of Torah teaching, and equipping me in various areas of my life. I believe one could even say that indirectly, through the Holy Spirit, Paul still imparts spiritual gifts and blessings, such is the extent of his calling and power of his ministry. So often when reading Pauls writings, it is as if he is alive, and teaching me directly, I love to sit under his ministry, and I honour this dear man of G-d as both an example and mentor....his whole heart was to see people saved and built up in the most Holy Faith. Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, 10 always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. 11 For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; 12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. NASB Not to labour the point....but in this passage I love the word 'perhaps' in verse 10...it is the Greek word 'pos' (not so clear in KJV) and demonstrates that Paul would not operate out of presumption, but lets G-d know his petitions...he doesn't get into unreality, but explains clearly that it is something he has prayed about often, but has not yet been assured is possible or expedient. Even in wanting to bless others by coming to them, he is humble enough and encouraging enough to demonstrate that it is a two-way thing and that he will in return receive something from them. His attitude could teach many of us a thing or two. Boltz, I hate to be an Amen-er, but, again AMEN! And it is Amen to all that you said in your post. But, commenting specifically on Paul's attitude, Paul would not dare to move in any direction of his own volition, but only as he was allowed of the Lord to do so. A very clear picture of, "not my will but thy will be done."

True. Romans 10:14 speaks to evangelism, not teaching. Not all evangelists are teachers and not all teachers are evangelists. Though the Lord may use someone in both offices combined it has to be an operation of the Spirit and not the will of man.

God's tools ... "And the Lord said, ______, _____, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat." (Lu 21:31) "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way." (Psa 37:23) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Rom 8:28) We can read and memorize the Bible all the day long but if we fail to realize that it is God, working in our environment, to refine us we find ourselves being repeatedly vexed by similar situations and wondering why. The Lord uses all things to reach out and crucify our Adamic nature so "His purpose" can be accomplished in us which is that "Christ be formed" in us. The best "teacher" is not necessarily one who can expound the Word. The best teacher oft times is the obstinate, hard headed, needy, demanding, refusing to do the right, take advantage of you one. If we, as Christians, will yield it is then that we will learn, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Gal 5:22-25) Let us pray that God, in His mercy, will teach us how to be taught of Him, as it is only through our environment and personal contacts that He can touch us.

Well sis, if it were up to me I'd just as soon say no. But, in accordance with what I see in Scripture I have to say yes. Personally, it makes no difference to me yes or no, but in the words of the Apostle Paul, "we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth." (2Cor 13:8) Isn't that what 7th Day Adventists believe? I have no idea. ???