JohnD

Khaver, you are aware no doubt of the bloody rabbiym? Religious zealots in Judaism who deemed even the sight of females in their view was sin and they walked around with their heads down to avoid seeing females at all and they ran into things all the time... hence the bloody rabbis. I am not going there. Along with Yeshua's reigning in Hillel's doctrines of adultery he was IMHO expressing a human vice and Yeshua was and is all about forgiveness. But we still live down here and vices must needs be kept at least in check. Don't you agree?

You are talking about two different things. Apples and Oranges. Temptation and Willful Disobedience are two different subjects. If a man forces a woman or commits murder he then is guilty just the same. The woman is not and neither the victim. Let's be clear. He asked about giving in to temptation. He is seeking to shift the blame to the woman for the mans sin. The man sins when he gives in to the lust of his own heart. Suppose the man finds the woman in a state of undress due to no fault of her own and then lusts after her. Who's at fault. You see, you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. Peace, Dave Are we agreed at least that any deviation from the divinely prescribed setting for human sex and sexuality is a perversion of that prescription? And if we are agreed, then it is not the vast difference it is claimed to be. Just different degrees / distance down the same path.

One of the things I dearly love about this kind of forum is that it removes the stigmas and considerations and desires of appearances or status between the posters. It puts us all on a plane that I believe God wants us to be on in public, at work, in society, in church... An example is of the exaltation the wealthy are sometimes given in Church. Or an ugly face one female would make to another after a quick glimpse, or a woman on stage who might not have given enough thought to her dress length in the choir... panties could be seen. Yes I admit I still should not have looked I sinned. But I must say I was not expecting it there. No excuse. Just a sad commentary. None of that is present here. And I love it and thank the Lord for this place!

There was a time when people aimed all the blame at the female in the OP scenario. I am not doing this. I am saying in the scenario she is the instigator. In reality, men are the instigators of women placing such self worth on their external appearance rather than their inner beauty. 1 Peter 3:1-7 (NASB95) 1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear. 7 You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. Note that it is the male's prayers that are hindered. God is no dummy.

But this was a straight up question with defined criteria......why bring other scenarios into the mix? Because it is about the same thing. Just a different scenario. Sin is sin. Perversion is perversion. Vice is vice. And we are far too quick to rationalize evil.

I have a unique perspective having worked with people in the business. I was in the limousine business and have friends and coworkers (from a government line of work) who grew up in Hollywood and know many in the small circle of entertainers and actors (smaller than most realize it is). I can testify to you that a very few are God fearing and for that very reason are looked over when it comes to parts or work of various kinds. There is a much greater perversion element that extends even into the production the lighting the set builders you name it which if you do not perform the sex acts a boss might want, you don't work. These people from the very beginning have been from the outcast dregs of society, goof balls, super high strung personalities many of whom were ousted and ostracized by polite society for their perversions or their obnoxious personalities... dress them up in a spotlight, assign them an agency that does damage control on their lapses into depravity or sends out flyers (in all media forms) portraying them as humanitarians and benevolent souls... and you have a brief cross section of 99.99% of Hollywood types. Now... what was the OP question?

Suppose a man places a woman in the position of not being able to make a choice but to sin? Or what about a drug dealer? What about a child? Are we so quick to whitewash the instigation of a thing and blame those who have an addiction / tendency to sin? And why wouldn't we apply the old vice laws for the sake of the vices of humanity? Think it over...Saints.

I don't remember if I said this before in this thread... It is amazing how scientists desperate to believe there is no God, no Creator, will leap to conclusions only mad men would consider valid. Cold dark matter which is undetectable by scientific means for example. They cannot mathematically account for the universe being the size and consistency it is without an enormous amount of additional matter which is simply not there. So they create a fairy tale to account for this missing matter. The same way Darwin did about trans-speciation. In some videos (you'll have to wade through them a bit) they suggest the universe is much larger than the "observable universe." And that it got to be the size it did one billionth of a second after the big bang. Now this is a puzzler. These same scientists who gave Setterfield and Norman such intense grief for suggesting the speed of light is slowing down (called the decay of c. and is documented by several centuries of scientific observation of the rates of the velocity of light decreasing beyond the margin of error of the experiments conducted)... these same scientists suppose the universe ballooned into existence in the first fraction of a second after the big bang to a size greater than the observable universe is than a single atom (their words). Talk about the speed of light being no kind of speed barrier whatsoever! That would mean the universe expanded to many trillions upon trillions of times faster than the speed of light in one split second. This kills all the arguments about the age of the universe based on the speed of light. "It took the light of a galaxy billions and billions of years top reach the earth..." they claim. If you have an infinitely faster mode of velocity extant once before, whose to say it did not exist again? These same preachers of the religion of atheism preach of multiverses existing to supersede their mathematical dead ends in evolution. Suppose the force of the big bang bounced off another of those universes they claim exist? Or perhaps it bounded off of the nothingness beyond this one universe and bounced back through the universe carrying along with it the light waves of these distant galaxies... in an instant. A universe that is 6 or 7 thousand years old. These "open-minded" scientists aren't open to the possibilities at all. And those who were and who came to faith in God and in Christ were bullied without mercy by the religious zealots of atheism in their ranks. And this is why if I had any children I would have never sent them to public schools until they were prepared to deal with that amount of brainwashed people hell bent on recruiting and programming little atheists through the school system and apparently the media as well.

The chart which I previously posted (which is based on scripture including all the scriptures all three camps of eschatology quote to support their beliefs) the beast will be on scene at least 1335 days before the rapture occurs. Before that event, the rapture, the beast will effectively turn humanity against Christianity (the one people on earth who will not take the mark of the beast which is the symbol of one's support of the beast). This is the period spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 10 and Mark 13Matthew 10:21-23 (NKJV) 21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 “When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Revelation 13 (NASB95) 1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. 11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. 666 will be a tracking device used to track down Christians who refuse the mark. And since no one can buy or sell without it, surviving and hiding and finding food will be a Christian's only objective. And for the few who are not discovered, betrayed or who simply starve until day 1335 (over 3.5 years) into the 70th Week will be raptured out before the Great Tribulation begins in the roughly 3.5 years remaining. So far underground in hiding will surviving Christians be, their sudden disappearance will go unnoticed... in fact, most will probably believe Christians were already entirely exterminated from the earth before that point.

The age-old question resurfaces "whose side are you on?" As I said in previous entries in this thread, all three major camps of Christian eschatology are correct about the one rapture. And that is made possible only because all three camps have been traditionally wrong about the 70th Week of Daniel (interpreting it as one seven-year tribulation period). The book of Daniel and the book of Revelation both divide this seven-year period in two using the words "time, times and half a time" and "forty-two months" and "1260 days." Which all three camps apparently ignored. When the number of days are charted it puts the rapture in the middle of the 70th Week of Daniel (which is not mid-trib eschatology but mid-70th Week eschatology): Day 1335 is the day of the rapture.

Let's try this again, shall we. You're driving along and someone cuts you off, nearly causing an accident. IN a moment of passion, you say a few words and perhaps even use a hand gesture displaying your displeasure with the person. Once you calm down, you realize you were wrong. The person has no clue what you did, so you couldn't have offended THEM. Whom did you offend? God. So you're partly right, I agree. But not completely. I think you confess to the one you wronged. Then, there is always the possibility that: 1. That person is no longer living 2. That person hates you and won't listen 3. You may have moved out of the area and have no way to reach a person you may have sinned against What then? This is what I believe David was up against in his confession recorded in Psalm 51. Uriah the Hittite was dead. No telling what condition Bathsheba was in having lost their child... and with me the jury is still out on whether or not she egged David on (not excusing David of his sin rather including her as part of it bathing on a roof top... where did she think she was modern day Los Angeles?)...

Read the chapter in its entirety to get the gist of who we are having fellowship with: 1 John 1 (NASB95) 1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete. 5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. Okay. So WHO do we confess to? Some might say confess your sins to God. According to Psalm 51:4 it is only against God that we sin... but is that true? Matthew 5:23-24 (NASB95) 23 “Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. And... James 5:16 (NASB95) 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. So, who do you confess your sins to?

BTW, I have relatives and friends who have had abortions. My mother and sister both have in the 1970's (which is not an excuse, it was just a very crazy time when many threw off the restraints of Christianity and even America for that matter prior to the 1960's). I am sure there is a certain amount of pain and guilt that will plague them about the whole thing (like even those who kill in war or self defense are never completely cool with the justification). The taking of a human life wreaks havoc on the taker. How much more when it is not justified and is ones' own child... even if in ignorance... which is why no abortion should be performed legally without full disclosure to the mother AND counseling from a woman who had an abortion... But the people I mentioned are all at peace, even if there will always be some pain and lingering guilt... by considering the omniscience of God more fully.

I used to ponder this same question. And it occurred to me the plain / simple answer is that God is the omniscientist. In his omniscience he knows when our ends (or translations from here to there) will take place. Place your trust in God. All creation declares he is trustworthy. That's the simple answer. The complicated answer is... complicated. But it is an answer to be considered and hopefully believed because it is true. It touches on many pet peeve doctrines / theologies and because it does I often hesitate to bring this up because it almost always ends up in a fuss fest of predestination versus free will and calvinists and armenians and lions and tigers and bears... oh my... oh brother... First of all we must pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten us all (including yours truly) because what better way to hinder believers who satan cannot prevent from believing than to keep us ever quarreling and bickering? If we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves... what good is that in evangelizing the world? If even only the appearances of it? Why would someone want to give up their struggles in the world for struggles in the religious realm? I know many dear people who have thrown up their hands about faith and said "I'm just not up for the fight enough to be a Christian..." So sad. Pray for the full armor of God to be donned upon us all and that we submit to the tutelage of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Do not be so quick to go beyond the omniscience of God and all the implications of it. The OP mentioned abortion, so lets begin there. Do all babies (who have not reached the age of accountability) go to heaven when they die? You'd be surprised how many people (including great scholars and theologians) believe this with out a shred of evidence to back it up. I chalk this up to the affinity God gives us towards babies (for the survival of the human race if you think about it). This gets translated over into the general populace with regard to infant mortality. But if you carried this thinking to its logical conclusion, then abortion would be doing every baby a favor. Perish the thought! But what good would it do that individual baby to be born and to sin and go to hell if they do not get saved? ...if they would have certain salvation if they were killed before the age of accountability... Would this not be another means of salvation? Jesus said no man comes to the Father but by him. And in Gethsemane Jesus begged if there be any other way than that he go to the cross and the answer from heaven was silence. Is prepubescent mortality really a way to get into heaven? Hold on! For those who have lost loved ones in that age range... there is another aspect of God's nature to consider before you give up all hope for those loved ones. And no it's not praying for the dead. That is a Mormon myth the same as paying for the dead is a Catholic myth. God is omniscient. We get that. But have we considered all that this means? God knows all things. When? Today? Tomorrow? Yesterday? And what about man's involvement / interference? God is sovereign. And this is where some toes get stepped on in the doctrinal / theological realm... because some believe this means man has no choice and cannot resist the will of God. The evidence of man's choice is all around us and in many many texts of scripture when God himself appeals top man to CHOOSE life not death etc. What these folk miss is that God in his sovereignty has give mankind limited sovereignty (choice) dependent upon the millions of things that limit or oppose us. And this presents no problem for God in his orchestration of all things to produce his will and his desired results. God in his omnipotence knows all things past, present, and future... AND all the possibilities given the choices of men and angels. So, how does this help the parent whose aching empty arms and broken heart mourns for their lost child? Or how does this help those who took the life of their child through legalized infanticide (abortion)? Observe: God in his omniscience knows ahead of time if your baby would have believed in his Son Jesus Christ had your baby lived to make the choice. And that is how you can know you will see them again in heaven. What if they would not have chosen to believe in Jesus? That is the dilemma ALL Christian parents face whether their children are living or dead. Which in itself proves man has a choice and God is not forcing himself upon anyone.

The term is found only once in scripture (Deuteronomy 23:17) and refers to shrine prostitutes (both male and female) for male "clients." Which brings up an interesting subject. Perversion. The adulteration of what God created and intended to be sanctified relations between a husband and a wife in private for purposes of expressing love and procreation. Is it just the homosexuals who pervert what God created and intended? We who have made a mockery of marriage for generations with serial monogamy (the divorce and remarriage) and the lustful / lust-provoking (provocative) apparel and activities we tolerate and encourage in society (in public) and in front of the most impressionable youth... dare we stand on our soapboxes and stab a bony finger at a gay parade and cry "Pervert!" ? Have we not convicted ourselves in that we haven't the moral capital to put down the more depraved perversions (more depraved than our own). I wonder... who has the mote in their eye and who the beam? A flaming homosexual who is an unbeliever and who has no reason to show moral restraint... ...or we who have the Truth in our hearts and our Bibles and who are the salt and light of the world but who practice adultery in the way we dress and the way we are always watching others with lust in our hearts. Our sins seem such minor things compared to those of the world / unchurched. But isn't it rather our "minor" indiscretions being played out more fully in the world? Meaning that if we in the Church / the Body Christian / the Israel of God got our act together, the world would follow our lead... Any thoughts?

Regarding the Temple... God intended the Temple to be the body of believers all along. David and Solomon rammed the Jewish Temple down everyone's throats and God condescended to deal with Israel on that basis until the Messiah came just as he did the monarchy (read 1 Samuel 8). 2 Samuel 7:12-13 (KJV) 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. Which David took to mean Solomon and he put Solomon up to completing the Temple he started preparations for. But the Lord had another meaning for that prophecy: Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJV) 12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. None other than the Messiah was the one whom God intended to build the Temple. Further, Hebrews 8:5 (KJV) 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Neither David or Solomon had the pattern Moses had to build the tabernacle God commissioned him to build. Matthew 16:18 (KJV) 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 1 Peter 2:3-9 (KJV) 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV) 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? But there is no doubt a temple was built without God's commission by Solomon (the one whom 666 points to) and that there will be a Temple standing in the end time (which will not be destroyed btw, but cleansed and used in the millennium).

A very good point. Not to be quarrelsome with brother Roy... but Ephesians 4:8-10 shows the initials pre-resurrected saints (in Avraham's bosom) as the disembodied human residents of heaven. And in Luke 23:43 Yeshua speaking to the first to die in faith going directly to heaven (paradise which is only used three times in scripture and all refer to the place where God is enthroned). 2 Corinthians 5:8 says when believers are absent from the body we are with the Lord whop is the lone resurrected human being / God the Word in heaven (Acts 2:33 / Hebrews 1:3 / 10:12). Jesus is not the lone human with a body in heaven, however. Both Enoch and Elijah were translated bodily to glory. Enoch and Elijah were translated to Abraham's Bosom. John 3:13 (KJV) 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. The new earth and the new firmament will be a complete renewal by the hand of God in the end. We who are Christ's will be resurrected or changed to our glorified state to reign and rule with Christ on Earth in His millennial kingdom, and will remain so forever, through the Great White Throne judgment of the world, ruling and reigning in the universe. Proof texts please.

The Word of God is Spirit. John 1:1 (KJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word of God IS God and was WITH God (establishing a plurality of individuals who are the one God. John 1:3 (KJV) 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. The Word of God is the lone Creator. Isaiah 44:24 (KJV) 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; John 1:14 (KJV) 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Goes to show there is more of a union of flesh and Spirit in Jesus than a simple indwelling or possession. The Word of God is the very life Spirit of Jesus as our spirit is what gives us life in our bodies. The one who made this union (in Jesus' case; uniting God Spirit with human flesh) is the Father: John 1:14 (KJV) 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Hebrews 10:5 (KJV) 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Hebrews 1:5 (KJV) 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

I must confess I am struggling a new perspective on the phrase "born again." Struggling as I do with most things the Holy Spirit teaches me about scripture... why I resist, I don't know... But anyway, the phrase born again (if this inspiration passes muster with holy writ) refers to the Jews only who are the natural branches of the Oliver Tree (Romans 11:16-28). Gentiles in this regard (the covenants of God etc.) were never born in the first place (with regard to the cultivated Olive Tree) but were wild olive branches to be grafted into the cultivated tree. The only other mention of "born again" that I can find is in 1 Peter 1:23 which makes the application to the scattered... which I take means the scattered Jewish Christians (otherwise from where are they scattered) and there is biblical and historic evidence that the initial Church was scattered from Jerusalem and Judea (the initial Church consisting almost entirely of Jews). The application still works for Gentiles in the overall interpretation, but the specific targets appears to be the Jews. As I said, this is one I am struggling with, and I would appreciate nay insights etc. on this... which seems to be in keeping with the OP.

They would not go for it. We would be considered antagonistic (which they perceive as affirmation). About the only thing they cannot abide at all is one of their own who turned away from the watchtower to the real truth. I have a JW in my family. Well till mom divorced him he was in the family. In fact the way she divorced him (took away his dignity) played a role in why my former stepfather will probably never leave the watchtower. She pushed him to the brink of suicide. The day he was going to shoot himself in his rented trailer home, two JW's came a knocking and talked him out of it. So his emotional ties are intensely strong. I tried working on him for years. His son (my half brother) left the watchtower when he was shown the false prophecies of the return of Jesus and the watchtower's resort to making that return invisible being contrary to Matthew 24:26 and all the verses that indicate his return will be quite visible (every eye will see him). The Witnesses will not accept or allow the accompaniment of anyone they deem is in error. Of course, neither would we.

Yes, but don't confuse the Trinitarian Son ("second person of the Godhead") with Jesus. The Son has no second nature. He is only God. Always was. Always will be. And He does not change. Jesus is the Son incarnate. He has both natures - the Theanthropic Being. The God-Man. Very God and Very Man. But He didn't exist until the incarnation just over 2000 years ago. peace If you are referring to the eternal son doctrine, Clay, I would appreciate scriptures to support this view. There is no doubt the Spirit of Jesus preexisted the incarnation. God the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1 / John 1:14). But according to Hebrews 1:5 he became the Son only after that point which he took on the second nature of flesh which Philippians says in the Greek was done without any change in his deity "morphe theos huparchon." I have debated (I guess you'd call them scholars) on the eternal son doctrine being unbiblical... but if you have found scripture to the contrary I'd be happy to look into them with you.

Was he this? Or more like this? or more like this?

Answer: Free will to choose not to follow God.

Partial preterism is only the result of partially using futurist proof texts and arguments (with no substantial reason for this middle of the road position). If you can't in good conscience be a full Preterist then take all the futurist points to their logical conclusions and be a full futurist as the Bible teaches us to be by all the evidence (not just the ones you like or pick and choose).

As the time of the Gentiles draws to a close, the Church will fall into less and less favor with the world. It never should have been in cahoots with the world to begin with (which is why her witness has been less and less effective in influencing the world to Christian principles and values). But that's a whole 'nuther thread. Roy mentioned the abomination of desolation (hashiqutz meshomem b'ivrit) began in the first century CE. The Apostle John mentioned the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) which is already in the world (the spirit of antichrist not the antichrist himself, not yet). 1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 2:18 (KJV) 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. See? The ultimate is yet to come but the preliminary antichrists / spirit of antichrist have been in the world since at least the first century CE. The principle was the same with the genuine Christ, many christs preceded him but he is the ultimate Christ (anointed one). Saul was an anointed one as was David... which were not the ultimate Anointed One but were preliminary / prophetic examples of the ultimate. This is why Saul was judged so harshly when he (a prophet and king) offered a priestly sacrifice. There was only to be one prophet priest and king Messiah (Yeshua / Jesus).