JohnD

Some might see this pov as a call to drop everything, don yarmulkes and prayer shawls and start trying to be shomer shabbos (sabbath keeping) or get back under the torah... but nothing could be further from the truth. While I embrace Messianic Judaism pointing out it has a more accurate tradition keeping the feasts of God rather than the feasts of man (Astarte / Easter, and Saturnalia / Christ-mass to name two), I would critique modern Messianic Judaism as being too imitative of non-Messianic Judaism (who "for 2000 years has been as much concerned with not being Christian as they have been about being Jewish" --- Michael Medved). This stems from the polarization of the Gentile Church from the first century Church which consisted mostly of Jews (at first, anyway). This polarization was the direct result of the Jewish abdication of leadership in the Church. There was an attempt, as most know, in the early Church to "Judaize" the Church or more accurately... to put the new covenant law of grace back under the old covenant law of works / religion. And much of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament (Testament = Covenant, btw) was against this attempt. And it was carried out in the later Church councils to the extreme... throwing out the baby with the bathwater as it were. For example the Jewish feasts all of which point to the Messiah, Jesus. I will show in another post how much the Passover Seder points to Jesus and the doctrines of the Bible regarding the incarnation of Jesus and even the Triune (Trinity) nature of God. And in the void created by the absence of what God ordained came human traditions and even paganism to fill the void. This is where Christmas trees, yule logs, mistletoe, Easter bunnies and eggs came from. Pagan traditions (mostly fertility) incorporated into "Christianized" holidays (holy days) and made to appear to celebrate the birth or the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Interesting that Jesus only ordained the remembrance of his death till he comes again. This is not Good Friday, but Passover / the last Supper as some call it. We are under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. Acts 15 (NASB95) 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren,

Nebula, if you read more closely what I wrote... you will see we are more in agreement than you think. And my questions for you, if (as you say) there is only one Israel... How do *you* interpret: Romans 9:6 (NASB95) 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; ??? And what about Israel, the Northern Kingdom? Israel (Jacob), the patriarch? Israel, the modern state? Israel, the name given to the physical heirs of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Only one Israel? And my interpretation of Isaiah 53 is the same as yours. I only showed that Moshiakh Nagiyd (Messiah the Prince) is the ultimate Prince of God (which is the definition of the root meaning of Israel: Yish + Sarar + Elohiym). The rabbis I have witnessed to about this have been genuinely astonished about what their own Bible says and what the tradition of the Sanhedrin that rejects Jesus as Messiah has cast a very blind eye to. Take courage, Nebula, we are on the same page more than you realize now. As I said... pride and prejudice have kept the Church in this 2000 year identity crisis.... prejudice of the Gentiles against the Jews, and pride of the Jews wanting to be exclusive...

This vehicle, spiritual Israel (or Spirit Israel) is what the Gentile Church has been grafted into and not the other way around. And the physical Jew who ceases in unbelief can be grafted back in. They are the natural branches. We physical Gentiles are the wild branches. That distinction alone proves the Olive Tree is the Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16 (NASB95) 15 For neither is {physical} circumcision anything, nor {physical} uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. This is not replacement theology. This is inclusion theology for the physical Gentiles. It is repentance theology for the physical Jew who refused to enter into the New Covenant. This is all that has changed in the Olive Tree. The covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-37 (NASB95) 31

Over the years I have studied this subject. And I have been led to conclude the following: There are two Israels: a physical and a spiritual. When this is factored into the theological equation it makes sense, is supported by scripture (from both sides of what is referred to as the replacement theology argument), and it prepares us all for what is in store. In the physical sense, the Church does not replace Israel. In the spiritual sense, physical Israel has refused to go where God tried to lead them. Physical Gentiles have gone that route, and are grafted into spiritual Israel. This is not replacement theology. This is precisely what Romans 11:16-26 says. Romans 11:16-26 (KJV) 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: If this were saying that physical Gentiles could become physical Israel by faith in Jesus then it would be replacement theology. But it does not so it is not. What has clouded the issue on both sides is a misunderstanding about the vehicle God created and called Yish Sarar Elohiym (he is prince of God) which is the full / spelled out meaning of "Israel." A name / title of the Messiah, by the way. When witnessing to Jews about Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 I wholeheartedly agree the suffering servant is Israel. It usually surprises them... and I cite Isaiah 49:3 as they do. But then I insist we identify which Israel is being spoken of for there are many Israels. There's Israel the patriarch Jacob. The northern Kingdom was called Israel. The modern day state is called Israel. The people of Abraham Isaac and Jacob are called Israel or the children of Israel. And there is one more... when going back to the root meaning of each word that comprises the compound name: Yish Sarar Elohiym (he is prince of God) "Israel." And there's no rabbi worth their salt who will deny that the ultimate Prince of God is the promised Messiah. This and the language of Isaiah 53 speak of the individual suffering servant sacrificing himself for the many. It means it's time those who reject Jesus (Yshua) as Messiah to rethink what their own Bible says on the subject. We are no different than they are. For reasons of antisemitic prejudice or of Jewish pride, typically neither side is willing to even consider that the Church belongs to a vehicle created by God called "the Olive Tree" in Romans 11:16-26... and apparently "all Israel" as well in this passage; and in Galatians 6:16 "the Israel of God" meaning spiritual Israel. Here is where I usually get jumped by all side of the issue. But the scripture passages persist! Paul writes: Romans 9:6 (KJV) 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: What could he possibly mean if he were not saying "they are not all spiritual Israel which are of physical Israel..." Or... Romans 2:28-29 (KJV) 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise {Jewishness**} is not of men, but of God. **Genesis 29:35 (KJV) 35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing. Jew is shortened for Judah btw. Circumcision of the heart is as old as... Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV) 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. See what Paul also wrote: Philippians 3:3 (KJV) 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Beginning to get the picture? God created a vehicle to introduce the Word of God (written and personified) into humanity. This vehicle is also used to wean humanity from the physical to the spiritual (the truly spiritual rather than man made feats of superstition which is what religion actually is, and mankind is an incurable religionist... aside from the intervention of God, that is). John 4:19-24 (NASB95) 19 The woman said to Him,

Hi John.....Torah leads to Messiah. Those who are still under the Law have not obeyed the Law, because if they understood the Law they would find themselves in the same position as Paul. The Law is still in place, it is holy, righteous and true, and even now if a person under the Law truly understands the Law, it will still lead them to Messiah....and thus into a newer Covenant that doesn't abolish the former but is the natural extension of it...no longer under a heavy yoke with strict unwavering penalties, but now yoked to Jesus....no longer is the Torah of G-d on the outside written on tablets of stone, but is now on the inside written on our hearts... A-M-E-N! I agree Torah Moshe was given to point the way to Moshiakh (Messiah). But it is apparently not the same Torah being talked about by Rav Shaul (Paul) in the passage I quote, nor in: Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV) 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is good. Dr. Walter Martin posed this to an atheist rabbi (of all people) on the old Long John Nevel radio show. In it he posed the question about the Holocaust wherein the Nazis determined their moral code was to allow them to exterminate Jews and handicapped people and homosexuals and some believe eventually Christians and Muslims had he gotten round to it. The rabbi was easily caught in the corner of his own logical fallacies. Some Christian author did a sermon based on the moral anchor using only a chair as his prop. I can't for the life of me recall his name but I see his face in mt minds' eye.

Torah Moshe (the Law of Moses) and Torah Moshiakh (the Law of Christ)... 1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NIV) 19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God

As I understand it, Psalms were to be sung. If you have attended Messianic synagogue, the reading of the Bible is in a singing tone. Some orthodox denominations also sing the scripture readings. An interesting event is to open your Bible to Psalms... place it on the seat of a chair... kneel and pray the psalms (reading and praying to God). They say George Washington did this for two hours each day and for two hours each night.

thank you.

certainly. and thanks

Christian Mysticism is not without its place in scripture. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV) 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Most can easily turn to the Gospels to support this text. But in Paul's day, when he wrote the passage above, only the Old Testament was in existence. The same is true when this was written: Acts 17:11 (KJV) 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. If you eliminate mysticism altogether you are in for some interesting dilemmas providing the Old Testament proof texts Paul and Luke cited. The Lord Jesus gave us the text (though there are more): Matthew 12:39-40 (KJV) 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale

I am a believer. But what I have encountered in the atheists I have been witnessing to for over 25 years now. To answer your question... they believe Jesus of Nazareth was elevated to the status we revere him in by myth, lore, martyrdom... after the fact predictive prophecies, and repeated validation of this seemingly closed system through a biased book (the Bible). And it occurred to me one day that this is by design... that the proof is there, but it is not so tangible or emphatic that it will win over unbelievers set in their unbelief. And the fact of the matter is that without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6 also became clear when I was wondering why things are like they are. It is no game nor cosmic joke being played on humanity. It is in effect a discipline of getting humanity to individually reach beyond themselves and even beyond their capacity to sense or reason. There is evidence and lots of it in the creation around us and not only in the pages of the Bible. But you must first believe. Seeing is not believing in God's economy. Believing is seeing. When we believe first then the evidence becomes crystal clear. To a skeptic that sounds like blind faith, but it really isn't. Blind faith is when you cling on to a belief despite the evidence to the contrary or the lack of supportive evidence. I realize there are those who claim they found their way to faith by the evidence they found when they set out to prove or disprove God's existence... Josh McDowell is one who comes to mind. But I would suggest that those who came this route actually came from more of an insecurity of their previously held world view because they encountered evidence that the lies they were told to support that previously held world view were not true and that world view is not as rock solid as they previously believed. This being the case, I began witnessing to atheists with evidence from creation that chips away at their belief in macro-evolution... exposing their blind faith in that very poor theory. I generally begin with pitting the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics against each other... which, when carried to its logical conclusion, prove that the existence of the universe is impossible (by scientific means or natural means). #1 the law of conservation states you cannot create anything from nothing (from nothing nothing comes). #2 the law of maximum entropy means the universe itself cannot be eternal. So, how'd it all get here? Answer: an intelligence (determined intelligent by the fact that the universe has design) greater than the laws of physics created all things from nothing. No science journal, not even any other "holy" book has ever addressed this matter with an eyewitness account that rivals the scientific method other than the Bible. None. And in fact it can be shown this so called antiquated book addressed such cosmological matters as the weightlessness of space in passages like Job 26:7 (NASB95) 7