ManApart

May grace and peace be with your all. Yiygadal v'yitkadash sh'mei rabbah!

Most think of Greek gods and such when they hear mythology. Myths are the oldest forms of story telling. Man describing an experience with nature or the divine, and doing it to the best of his ability with limited knowledge. A false hood portraying a truth. And I am sorry about the quote, I did not mean to convey it was you. Myths are just a form of expression. The flood or deluge was an event of worldwide size and was told in all civilizations. The Hebrews were behind on oral-to-written record compared to the other civilizations around them. You take a story, and make it your own. No problem. A myth used is stil la myth, just retold. There is no argument, there is just the fact and truth of historical writings. Only ones that argue about it is usually those raised not knowing the background. Then when the issue arises and the basics of the backgrounds are mentioned, people go on the offensive. It's okay, normal, and expected. I did it too when I learned of certain things. Take the Book of Jasher, mentioned in the Old Testament in Joshua 10:13, and 2 Sam. 1:18. It predates the Old Testament books. Try reading it if you can get ahold of it. See how man has changed the original oracles.....but wait, i am wrong, as those in here are quick to say to make themselves feel better. That is why I have always found the truth on my own with the guidance of the Spirit; I have studied and went backwards to the origins. Not allowing the limitations and dogmatic teachings to keep me complacent or trapped in a box. The ultimate potential is within us, the heart, and I trust, believe, and have faith that my heart is in accordance with my God. Grace and peace be with you...

Something saddens me, and it is so common in Christianity. I was raised in the church and it seems that Christians, Mainstream Christians, only argue, point the finger, and put others down. I was told that this topic area had many minds that were very edified. I came here to discuss and fellowship on what I thought was a mature level, not a religious soap box level. There were many aspects that I did not agree with when I got to seminary studies, but I realize my standard was how I was raised. Mainstream Christianity has not incorporated many truths, and those truths will not be found unless one goes past the limitations of Mainstream Christianity. To be attacked and put down and told I am wrong when I know good and well I am right, allows me to move on. I do pray that those who have issues get through them. I pray that eyes and ears are opened. My prayers are with everyone and I am thankful to those who were polite and considerate, asking my views and sharing theirs. Typical....the whole reason I detached from Mainstream Christianity and applied myself to Christ and Messianic Judaism. Go back to the origins and learn the original context for maximum edifying lessons. That is what I did, and am thankful for it, for I can see when others are not in line with God's message. May grace and peace be with you all...

It seems every time I try and explain things, that I was under the impression those in here knew, I am constantly told I am wrong, and I should check my heart. I am very aware of what I know, what I have studied, and who i have studied under. What I will do to answer the question you ask, and refer you to what to research. Midrash, a Jewish style of teaching. Look it up. There is one member who says he is Jewish, a am guessing a Messianic Jew. Having Hebrew roots and knowledge, he should be very familiar with midrash and how it is reflected in scripture. Midrash designates the use of sacred scripture; an interpretation. Midrash was not for interpretation of the literal sense,, but it was used for seeking the maximum of edifying lessons. The goal is a practical application to modern times. Scripture can be retold, not in the historical sense, but in a manner to achieve edification. There is the "halakhah" and the "haggadah"; one for narrative teaching and the other a walking conduct type of teaching. Midrash is necessary in that it is personalizing the scriptures, and that it is an imaginative reconstruction of the inspired scripture. Literal sense, as historical facts and origins, is pushed aside, in order to extract the lesson; a principle, moral, or message. A true sympathetic understanding of midrash is essential in understanding Judaism and Christianity. To understand something in the Bible, one must know and understand how the intellectual and religious environment, and how they came to their own understanding. How they conveyed the lessons. Midrash was their way of taking sacred scripture, and making it applicable to their time. As the culture grew and society changes, so do traditions and regulations. Anew society uses midrash to draw out the lessons, principles, and morals in the scripture, and midrash had it's part in the development of the early church. Jesus used midrash as well as the rest of the teachers, priests, and scribes. It was very common in the Second Temple era. But, I am sure that I will be told I am wrong or something. I studied the culture that wrote the scriptures, and I believe that they know their writings better than those that teach Mainstream Christianity full of anti-semitism. I pray I am not coming across rude, but I have been attacked since the first comment I gave. I was then accused of putting others down first. It's okay though, it is the norm I have seen my whole life in the church. May grace and peace be with you. I see no attack from anyone. Please quote where someone asked you to check your heart? I asked how your view of scripture lines up with how Jesus handled it. And that hasn't been answered. Nothing more or less. 4given1, on 13 June 2011 - 01:02 PM, said: I line up the scripture by the standard of the Divine Nature. I studied Jesus toroughly and intimatly. I learned how he walked, talked, everything I could. How he read, what festivals he observed, the customs and traditions of a jewish man with the highest reverance to the Torah. my paradigm of the Judeo -Christian scripture is based on the culture of the time and not the anti-semetism and anti-law view from Mainstream Christianity.

That's not true. For one to truly and thoroughly know who Jesus Christ was, and is, having an understanding of the cultural is essential. Is it needed for ones Salvation? Probably not, but who can say when one allows Jesus into their hearts. You are shackling people with a burden that isn't necessary. You're also adding something to the Word. You say it probably isn't salvation related but then go on to say that maybe it is. When you say things like this you are condemning countless multitudes of people. Because I know nothing about jewish culture, you're saying I don't know Christ. I don't believe it's your place to make that call. Brother, Ido not question or make any statement on your salvation. I have no place to say anything. Your walk is your walk. What I said is getting to know Jesus in a "more" personal and intimate relationship. I am sorry you are confused at what I say. May grace and peace be with you...

The flood , or deluge, epic is common around the world. A universal story. Over 200 srories, 50% older then the Hebrew account and 70% of those include the same details. Just different characters for the culture retelling the story. Noah was the Hebrew characte for the Hebrew realtion to the worldwide deluge story. but, once again I quess I am wrong, along with the rest of the world. Look up epics like the Epic of Gilgamesh, it had a strong influence on the Hebrew version of the deluge. My view of Christ is very intimate. I know where I stand. I do honestly worry for the rest of the majority who think they actually know the facts, and preach and argue of details they do not know. May grace and peace be with you.

From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Jesus Himself was happy to use the example of Abel, as a real life character, no obfuscating the truth in His words.... 49

Buit name='~candice~' timestamp='1308127408' post='1686137'] Man - what then do you say about the manner in which Jesus Himself read and understood the bible and it's inerrancy? Jesus spoke of Adam as a literal person. He quoted passages from the OT as if they were literal and true. Was Jesus wrong, or just going along with the current understanding of the time? I think it would be quite easy to make a case that Jesus' interpretation of the bible (at that time, the OT) should inform our interpretation of the bible and thoughts about inerrancy and inspiration. If the Son of God reads it, cherishes it, quotes it and teaches from it as if it were literal, what liberty do we have to read it any other way? God bless

No, in Scripture visions, revelation, awareness dreams, etc. are not considered "inspiration." There is no such connection between those things and the doctrine of inspiration. Rather it is visions and dreams and revelation that the Holy Spirit inspired the biblical authors to record. They are the subject matter of the inspired text, and not the mediums of inspiration, themselves. "Religious" inspiration??? What in the world is that? Being inspired of God to pen the Scriptures does not reflect what you call the "simple view." Not really. Inspiration is the means by which God super-intended His truth by the agency of the Holy Spirit upon the authors who, through the same spiritual agency recorded inerrantly that same truth. You are referencing Jeremiah 20:9. And that is not an example of inspiration. Jeremiah was referring to his calling as a prophet. His point was that even if he tried to forsake his ministry and stopped speaking in His Name, the message was a fire within Him. He could no more forsake that calling than could a mother forsake her child. Sorry, but you are reading that wrong. That is again, wrong. The Bible comes from God inerrantly. The human nature is incapable of inerrancy. Man is by nature an errant being. All of the truth of Scripture was transmitted from God to man and God prserved it from error. Furuthermore there is no "human nature half" of Scripture. The Scripture does not at any point originate with man. None of that pertains to the issue of inerrancy. You are long on words, but short on substance. Which parts of the Scriptures do you considered inspired and inerrant? Sorry I did not answer your question immediately. I am new to this site. I was told many great minds were here, many mature and edified individuals. Early Hebrew writings are heavily influenced by the societies and civilizations that were surrounding them. Creation myths of the Mesopotamian region, such as Canaanite, Sumerian, and Egyptian were know to the Hebrews. As they began to move from oral tradition of records to written records, the Creation myths were retold according to the Hebrew beliefs, showing their version of how they fit in to existence. The Enuma Elish, Epic of Gilgamesh; all stories of how man believes life was established. All have the pretty much the same story line, events, and lessons, just different characters and twist. Real interesting to see the cultural reflections. You asked about characters, which ones are not literal. Cain and Able are examples. They are allegorical characters reflecting early Israel, when they had conflicts between the nomads and the agricultural sides. They were never meant to be real characters. According to Mainstream Christianity they are, but if you study the Hebrew culture and their historical writings, it is well explained. As far as we are taught, Cain and Abel were literal. When teaching a lesson, whether or not the character is real, does not really matter. Doesn't change the message being conveyed. Those are apart of the inspiration. They are the avenues by which man perceives the Word of God. God has a desire or purpose, and then moves upon man. God uses visions, dreams, and so on to share with him. God works on man's level. That inspiration is a continuation, starting with God's desire, then eventually manifesting into a power laden spoken word or written word passed down for another to utter, releasing the power of the Spirit. The term religious inspiration was meant to refer to the Torah and it's level of reverence to the Tanakh. The Law being the top, or most inspired, then followed by the prophets, and last the writings. The three fold charisma is for that, and the point is that religion places limitations on inspiration and says what is inspired. True inspiration is not in a box or limited. Religious leaders then made godly opportunities of peace, prosperity, and health into burdens and obligations. Religious leaders still do it today. Religion views inspiration differently that one who approaches from the spiritual or non-biased perspective. This goes to the "simple view". Inspiration and the potential within is not complicated. Man makes it complicated. Jesus even used the example of a child in that a child-like mindset allows one to partake in the Kingdom. This is simplicity; an unwavering faith and trust. There is the simple view, not complicated by man, then the religious view of limitations. What you say is true, I was not denying that. I was stating the fact that it can be viewed that way. It is all part of the overall purpose of the inspiration. This is part of the inspiration. Jeremiah's burning within his bones was a type of inspiration. God chose him, knew him before the womb. And when the time was right, God moved upon him. Inspiration, and the burning was an overwhelming desire and unction to be a prophet. Try looking up the Hebrew meaning of inspiration and reference with Israelite literary forms. Inspiration is much bigger and has great importance to the depth of scripture. Maybe I typed something wrong but I did not mean to say there is error on God's behalf. There is none. I am not sure who taught you there is no human nature in the Judeo - Christian Bible. Human nature plays as much role in what we have today for a Bible. You keep telling me I am wrong, I am sorry you feel that way, but maybe if you advance your studies more you will learn those truths. I studied the Hebrew culture, historical records, literary forms, you name it. I have placed my all into getting to know my God personally. Have learned much, and I can say, I am far from completion. I am sorry if what I say seems incorrect to you. The Judeo -Christian Bible we have today is full of philosophy, theology, psychology, and sociology. Those are all aspects of mankind and the human nature, understand the human nature, and then discernment allows the core truths of scripture arise. If you think for one second that there is no manipulation, corruption, alteration, omitting, and even exaggerating to scriptures, you really should study the history of scripture, translations, versions, literary forms, and the history of the Church. But in all that, God's word, the essence of the message, never changes...that will endure and last forever, no matter what human nature does to it. May grace and peace be with you....God Bless.

No so brother; Ec 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecclesiastes is written from the perspective of a man and not God. There is nothing new under the sun where a man is concerned. Man hasn't changed, he's still a sinner. Peace, Dave Ecclesiastes, a wonderful book. Most do not understand the depth of the writer and the writings. You mention something very important, that it is written by a man. A man inspired to write by a unction and movement in the spirit. One of the fellow members just sent me a comment that there is no human nature side to scripture. I was actually told that there were some very edified members of this forum, with thorough knowledge and stability in spirit. I have seen comments and statements that I would not expect. To see the physics of Creation and how life orcestrates is enlightening to individuals, such as the author of Ecclesiastes. To glimpse as a sage into the aspects of the Universe, God's plan, and our purpose here, really brings things into perspective. There are cycles and seasons to everything, and within those cycles, is change. Purpose initiates design and the design process constrain to meet the purpose. Everything changes, especially mankind, God does not. God, the Creative Diety, it is His purpose and Will, and it does not change. Man changes, aklways has and always will. Change is a Universal Law. As man changes, so does his avenues of expression. Man, or the human nature, is sinful. It has the potential for wickedness. Just because man is still in a sinful nature does not mean that man does not change. His having a sinful dispostion does not affect his ability to write and share experiences of the Divine Nature. I am thankful though that my God knows me better than I know myself. He knows my concrete reality and personality, and being that I grow, learn, experience, and mature, I change. But this is nothing new...correct? Been done before and will be done again....God Bless brother.

I understand what you are saying. God understands human attributes because He made man. However, there's something more God became what He beheld. He understands human attributes/nature because He became one. The Divine Nature as you express it became Man and made His dwelling with us. The Divine Nature stooped down and humbled Himself. Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Do you agree with this and is this what you are trying to express? Do you agree that God became man in the flesh? Peace, Dave Yes sir...I do agree 100%. The Divine Nature humbled Himself.....I love that, AMEN brother!

Except the Bible does not ever treat any of its characters as mythical or unreal. Which characters do you think were unreal? What is your position on stories like the parting of the Red Sea? The Miracles of Jesus? How do you view the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture? Inspiration is generally considered the origin of Divine knowledge. A Divine Intelligence conveys knowledge to a man by dream, vision, revelation, or awareness. It can be seen as a guidance or instruction received, or even a divine Impulse. For religious inspiration, there is a three fold charisma for scripture. The instruction of the priest, the counsel of the wise, and the word of the prophet. From the simple view, anyone can be inspired, or moved upon to write and share an experience that when read by another, can be edifying. Inspiration can be understood as a dictation of words, an interpretation of instruction and guidance, to convey a message. Inspiration is separate from revelation. Inspiration produces the sacred scripture, and revelation is the attestation, or proving, of a truth. What is written by the inspired writer may not be a revelation to him, but a revelation to the reader. Inspiration affects the ideas and understanding that the writer already has; God works on man's level. We can not comprehend the fullness of the thoughts and ways of God. We know that from scripture. God does not show us things beyond ourselves, but shows man things that they can relate and understand, inspiring him, and it is then up to the person to interpret the inspiration and speak or write it. A continuation of the Divine Movement. Inspiration is the resonating within my soul, like Jeremiah and the burning within his bones. Experiencing true inspiration does something to you and can not be explained in words; it changes you and orchestrates our holy walk. The inspiration and the divine movement continues with guidance from the spirit. There is no inerrant with the unction and will of God. Inerrancy comes form the human nature half of the literature. Man changes...so the translations, versions, and beliefs change, and that can be seen in study with understanding of human nature, psychology, philosophy, etc. The inspired message; the point of the enlightened teaching, reflecting the character of God's Nature does not change and is by no means in error. Inspiration is positive and negative, not necessarily good and evil. God Bless.....

Yes...agree, very much so. That knowledge brings greater discernment then when reading. One can separate the Divine Nature from human nature. If You Know Jesus See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 36:39-40 You Know God Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30 And If You Don't The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 ____________ Believe That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. John 10:9 And Be Blessed Beloved For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. John 10:10 Love, Joe May grace and peace be with you brother.

Salvation is simple in the love of it's availability. " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Faith is best described with the word "trust". To me , trust comes from my belief in the sincerity of God's love, and Jesus' life. I trust, so i belief and have faith that He is true to His message and that His Nature is abundant for enlightenment. Salvation is a mindset. Many believe that just because one says they are saved, they are saved. Anyone can say it, all day every day, but if the heart is not right, it is in vain. The heart is the feelings, emotions, and depths of desire and motives that orchestrate our walk. It's a mindset and attitude. Free will choice and decision. It also takes time and faithfulness to continue the walk. Grace allows me the opportunity to adjust my mind and heart to align with the plan and will of God. He allows me to choose to be obedient and follow Jesus with all my heart. Jesus is my Savior. He was there for me, patiently waiting. His walk and life is what I put my sincere and honest trust in, and examining His nature, embarrassed the mindset of Christ, allowing that Universal Divine Intelligence to adjust my spiritual polarity. A man? God in the flesh? Half man, half God? Enlightened One?....the question and standpoint that has caused the most death and argument in the history of the Christian Church. Creeds would change and each ruler changed the belief of the whole body, bringing murders within the church. A question that does not change or sway any part of my belief in who Jesus was, is, and what he did for me. His example is my foundation... Grace and peace be with you brother....

I disagree wholeheratedly. How can a house built upon shifting sand be beneficial for edification? It has been proven in this thread that The Message purports itself to be a Bible and not merely a translation. Therefore, we are commanded to examine it. It also has been shown in this thread that it distorts the God of our Gospel. We have two opitons here. To fully embrace it or caste it off. We have a scriptural mandate; 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Co 11:4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him. Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed. Back to the point that I disagree with you about. How can there be any Light coming from the darkness? Mt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be sound, your whole body shall be full of light. Mt 6:23 But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! "Be careful what you see little eyes little eyes, be careful what you see little eyes. Be careful what you hear little ears little ears, be careful what you hear little ears. Be careful whom you trust little heart little heart, be careful whom you trust little heart. For the Father up above is looking down in Love" Grace and Peace to you too brother, Dave I appreciate your reply, and understand. I can relate to the perspective you have. For someone raised in Mainstream Christianity, never really advancing their studies, or for someone coming to Christianity, the very altered versions are not for them. I would agree on that 100 %. Some versions are very helpful, while some can cause more bad than good. Personally, I do not like the Message Bible that much. But it can be beneficial for teaching and expounding the scriptures. What is your version you are true to? Most raised in the church, as myself, would say the Authorized King James. Established in the 1600's. Even that version has it alterations. So do we discard the King James? What about American Standard, or Amplified? Different translation and interpretations based on the writer, giving another expression of what was received. If we argue over the versions, then everyone is out of there pretty much. We can access ancient manuscripts, and some versions use these to get closer to the original meaning. My stance on the various versions, I study and read. I test the spirits, and compare the translations with the original Hebrew/ Aramaic and Greek. I always have my KJV, but also have many other versions for cross reference and expounding. I have a foundation. I know my heart and where I am with the Divine Nature. I can read and study historical documents, manuscripts, other holy oracles, and not be swayed or dismayed. I know the core truths of the characteristics and attributes of the Divine Nature. All the verses you used are great, and I agree...I do. I do know that following Christ, and the avenues of discipleship, varies for everyone. You should never base your walk on any one else's. I think students should have not just the KJV, but concordances, dictionaries, and whatever version helps them to understand the scripture... Thank you again brother for your reply, and I pray that conversation and sharing edifies us both. Bless you brother, The common translations out there may have translational errors (In your opinion) and they may not, but they definately do not intentionally change the meaning of the Word. I have a software package with all the reliable texts in it. Unpack this thought for me. What does this mean? We are all walking our walk and we are all working out our Salvation with fear and great trembling. At least I hope. However, we are all following the Same Christ Jesus who is God come in the Flesh. Therefore, we are all born into the same Kingdom. We are all being discipled in the same Faith. One Body One Faith. Christ is the head. Jesus said this; Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. No one gets to the Father except by jesus. Therefore, if this Bible is presenting another Jesus, another understanding, wouldn't you agree that it's dangerous? Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad that were conversing too. Peace, Dave I use the term Divine Nature when I am speaking Of my perspective and impression of "God". We know that God is not a man, but we see that in scripture man uses anthropromorphism. That's human nature; when something such as the Divine, is so far beyond man's comprehension, the only way he can relate and identify with the Nature is to personify it. God gets human attributes. In the book of Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, chapter 55, we know it says that God says His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. God is not man, and His ways and thoughts are not ours. When we get to know someone, like a friend, or spouse, or family, we end up connecting and responding to their nature. This is the heart and being of who we are. Our consciousness, feelings, emotions...our depth of desires and intentions; we release divine energy in pulses and waves. We bond with each others nature. We can put on masks and facades, but our nature will manifest. This is the journey and approach we take to Jesus and our relationship with the Father. We become more intimate and personal, with the characteristics, attributes, and personality of God. That is the essence of what scripture was intended for, to express an experience with the Divine, with the awesome and eternal Divine Nature. That Nature is the standard; all scripture when tested is tested by the standard of the Divine nature of God, expressed perfectly by the Son Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMaschiach. The Nature is what we should be relating to and experiencing. Not some imagery of the image of Christ. The Divine Nature is an Intelligent Energy and Essence, and that is what I relate to, not the anthropormorphic imagery of Zeus and Hellenism. May grace and peace be with you...God Bless!

I disagree wholeheratedly. How can a house built upon shifting sand be beneficial for edification? It has been proven in this thread that The Message purports itself to be a Bible and not merely a translation. Therefore, we are commanded to examine it. It also has been shown in this thread that it distorts the God of our Gospel. We have two opitons here. To fully embrace it or caste it off. We have a scriptural mandate; 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Co 11:4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him. Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed. Back to the point that I disagree with you about. How can there be any Light coming from the darkness? Mt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be sound, your whole body shall be full of light. Mt 6:23 But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! "Be careful what you see little eyes little eyes, be careful what you see little eyes. Be careful what you hear little ears little ears, be careful what you hear little ears. Be careful whom you trust little heart little heart, be careful whom you trust little heart. For the Father up above is looking down in Love" Grace and Peace to you too brother, Dave I appreciate your reply, and understand. I can relate to the perspective you have. For someone raised in Mainstream Christianity, never really advancing their studies, or for someone coming to Christianity, the very altered versions are not for them. I would agree on that 100 %. Some versions are very helpful, while some can cause more bad than good. Personally, I do not like the Message Bible that much. But it can be beneficial for teaching and expounding the scriptures. What is your version you are true to? Most raised in the church, as myself, would say the Authorized King James. Established in the 1600's. Even that version has it alterations. So do we discard the King James? What about American Standard, or Amplified? Different translation and interpretations based on the writer, giving another expression of what was received. If we argue over the versions, then everyone is out of there pretty much. We can access ancient manuscripts, and some versions use these to get closer to the original meaning. My stance on the various versions, I study and read. I test the spirits, and compare the translations with the original Hebrew/ Aramaic and Greek. I always have my KJV, but also have many other versions for cross reference and expounding. I have a foundation. I know my heart and where I am with the Divine Nature. I can read and study historical documents, manuscripts, other holy oracles, and not be swayed or dismayed. I know the core truths of the characteristics and attributes of the Divine Nature. All the verses you used are great, and I agree...I do. I do know that following Christ, and the avenues of discipleship, varies for everyone. You should never base your walk on any one else's. I think students should have not just the KJV, but concordances, dictionaries, and whatever version helps them to understand the scripture... Thank you again brother for your reply, and I pray that conversation and sharing edifies us both. Bless you brother, The common translations out there may have translational errors (In your opinion) and they may not, but they definately do not intentionally change the meaning of the Word. I have a software package with all the reliable texts in it. Unpack this thought for me. What does this mean? We are all walking our walk and we are all working out our Salvation with fear and great trembling. At least I hope. However, we are all following the Same Christ Jesus who is God come in the Flesh. Therefore, we are all born into the same Kingdom. We are all being discipled in the same Faith. One Body One Faith. Christ is the head. Jesus said this; Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. No one gets to the Father except by jesus. Therefore, if this Bible is presenting another Jesus, another understanding, wouldn't you agree that it's dangerous? Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad that were conversing too. Peace, Dave I use the term Divine Nature when I am speaking Of my perspective and impression of "God". We know that God is not a man, but we see that in scripture man uses anthropromorphism. That's human nature; when something such as the Divine, is so far beyond man's comprehension, the only way he can relate and identify with the Nature is to personify it. God gets human attributes. In the book of Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, chapter 55, we know it says that God says His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. God is not man, and His ways and thoughts are not ours. When we get to know someone, like a friend, or spouse, or family, we end up connecting and responding to their nature. This is the heart and being of who we are. Our consciousness, feelings, emotions...our depth of desires and intentions; we release divine energy in pulses and waves. We bond with each others nature. We can put on masks and facades, but our nature will manifest. This is the journey and approach we take to Jesus and our relationship with the Father. We become more intimate and personal, with the characteristics, attributes, and personality of God. That is the essence of what scripture was intended for, to express an experience with the Divine, with the awesome and eternal Divine Nature. That Nature is the standard; all scripture when tested is tested by the standard of the Divine nature of God, expressed perfectly by the Son Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMaschiach. The Nature is what we should be relating to and experiencing. Not some imagery of the image of Christ. The Divine Nature is an Intelligent Energy and Essence, and that is what I relate to, not the anthropormorphic imagery of Zeus and Hellenism. May grace and peace be with you...God Bless!

That's not true. For one to truly and thoroughly know who Jesus Christ was, and is, having an understanding of the cultural is essential. Jesus, the disciples, the apostles....all Jewish. Jewish observance of festivals, holy days, feasts, customs, and traditions. Is it needed for ones Salvation? Probably not, but who can say when one allows Jesus into their hearts. We are saved by grace through faith, yes. But when one comes to truly want that intimate and personal relationship, then they strive to know all there is to know. I wanted to know exactly and and why he walked, talked, thought and act. How did he feel, how to he react? As a student studies Jesus, the culture has to be considered. It opens up, expounds, and brings the context of the Hebrew/Jewish scriptures. For example, When Jesus was crucified, the Gospels express the event, and vary. But in the Gospel of John, it says that Jesus said " It is finished..", then gives up the ghost. By basic teachings, we are not told much about that except that it means that the work of the cross was done. Although correct and beautiful, it is not the reason that the phase, " It is Finished.." was said. Unless you know the culture, you miss the beautiful teaching and spirit enlightening context of what our Lord and Savior did. On that day, it was the day when the lambs for passover were brought into the city to be bleed out for passover. Thousands could line up and the High Priest and other priest would come to the court yard and line up. Families would then bring froth their animals. The very first animal was special. The very first lamb, was for the entire city of Jerusalem; the Passover Lamb, for yearly sins. The High Priest would hold the knife to the throat of the lamb and before he slit the throat, he would say loudly, "It is finished..", for the remission of the sins of Israel. Only the High Priest could preform this action. As Jesus hung and bleed, He said " It is finished'' right before the Passover Lamb was slaughtered. Jesus took the place of the Passover Lamb for the permanent remission of sins. Beautiful, but that is not all. Only the High Priest could say it, and as Jesus said that, He showed His position as High Priest, the Eternal High Priest. How beautiful is that?! Takes the place as the Passover Lamb, and speaks boldly His position as High Priest. Without having understanding of the Jewish customs of Passover, then one misses out. It does not question or determine one's salvation, it merely allows one to get closer and more intimate about the Nature of Christ. Remember in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 7, where the widow's son was raised from the dead by Christ? Verses 11-18. The Ancient city of Nain, modern Arab city of Nein, is the territory of Issachar. That is the area where Elijah raised the Shunamite's dead son. That story was the center of what connected that area to biblical events. It was a story passed down. In the Gospel of Luke, there was a funeral and Jesus and His disciples were passing by. In those times, it was the custom that everything stops for the respect of a funeral passing. Only things that can stop a funeral is a wedding or the King of Israel. As Jesus came to the funeral He held out his hand, placing it in the coffin,and stopped the funeral. We have two beautiful points. The first, was that as Jesus resurrected the boy, it brought remembrance of the past to the surface. Second and most beautiful, is the statement Jesus made with His actions. Obviously there was no wedding...he stopped the funeral and said by that action that He is the King. BEAUTIUL!! I pray that you understand that getting to know the culture expounds and reveals treasures in the scriptures.....Jesus is my Lord, Savior, and King, and I personally desire to know his Nature. God Bless and may grace and peace be with you.

Yes...agree, very much so. That knowledge brings greater discernment then when reading. One can seperate the Divine Nature from human nature.

Ok Im curious. Do you think the stories in the bible are fantasy fables and myths? Have you studied you history and origins? Most do not and stay complacent and idle, never really maturing and growing. You can ask any Christian if Salavational teachings are all there is, and most will say yes. Hebrew 6:1-3 says, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. And this we will do if God permit." Once a foundation is down, it is time to move on. Do you build a foundation for a house and then just stand there next to it? No, you start to build. I promise that all the meat and advanced knowledge of Christianity today is not the building, is not the meat. People feel they are grown and on the meat, but really they are still on the milk. History and origins of what we have as a Judeo- Christian, are very essential for any biblical student. The Hebrews were a nomadic people, constantly moving, and never really integrating themselves with the other more advanced civilizations. As they moved about in the Mesopotamian region, they incorporated the stories and myths of those people. the Hebrews were late when it came to written record, and stayed in oral tradition for a while, compared to the societies around them. Stories were told generation by generation, changing with the change of the culture. People change, that is a given, and when a story is told, it reflects the overall belief of the people, and will change to reflect the new overall beliefs. Eventually, written record came along and then the stories of old were passed down. As they were written, they conveyed stories from the surrounding cultures, with the Hebrew belief twist. The Holy Bible we have today is a compilation of myths, epics, sagas, folklores, poetry, pose, and even symbology, allegory, and parables. Biblical students need to learn Israelite literary forms and writings. There are many parts of the scripture that were not meant to be literal, but we take them literal. Some things were meant to be literal and they think its fantasy. This is why one needs to study and learn for themselves what the truth really is, then one can model their lives afterwards. I pray that you continue in your journey. I do know that when you study and read, be careful. test the spirits. When you study from one specific denomination, they are only going to tell you the facts that are important and agree to their own ideas. They will only tell you 5 out of 10 facts. Find the facts for yourself, and make your own decisions. If you would like to know more about the history of the Judeo- Christian Bible, I would be more than happy to share what is actually myth and so on. Just because something is a myth, it does not mean it is false. A myth can be described as a falsehood portraying a truth. When man could not comprehend the fullness of something as nature or the divine, he had to explain what he experienced the best way he knew how. Myths are the oldest form of story telling. The characters and so on were not meant to be real in that sense; they were trying to express a truth experienced. God is bigger than one book or the box that religion places him in....

because; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths. I agree... I do, but my point was that knowing those scriptures you mentioned, we should have reverence for the original oracles, not argue over one of the many distorted versions. No point in fighting or arguing over the many new versions and translations...we know they are not accurate, but they still can be beneficial for edification. Plus we have to understand that the Word of God is not eh words in black on a white page. Those change; always have always will. God does not change,. and the Word does not either. The Word of God is the message; the morals, principles, teachings, characteristics, and attributes of the Divine nature expressed by man through inspiration. That does not change, and is what students should be focusing on, not all the fantasy and story-telling most endure. So we do see today that the majority have turned from the truth....seems most fantasy, fables, and myths are being taken as literal. May grace and peace be with you.... You are confusing. You say that we should strive to know God, but excuse the lies in a book that someone calls the bible which can lead someone down the wrong path. Didn't Christ come to shine light into the darkness, and has He not told us to do the same? I do agree that we should go back to the copies of the originals that are available today and glean from them as much guidance as we can. Then what? Are we to remain silent when we see errors? And are we to remain quiet? NO. This is why I share what I do. Most have not studied the history of the Christian Church and do not understand the depth of dogma within the core teachings we receive in Church. I applied myself to know, to study and learn....to seek the truth and grow. I have studied and studied more than you know...I tested the spirits. Unfortuneately most of what we believed as true within mainstream Christianity, has not been taught correctly. So no, do not remain quiet. You will learn of many things...share them.

because; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths. I agree... I do, but my point was that knowing those scriptures you mentioned, we should have reverence for the original oracles, not argue over one of the many distorted versions. No point in fighting or arguing over the many new versions and translations...we know they are not accurate, but they still can be beneficial for edification. Plus we have to understand that the Word of God is not eh words in black on a white page. Those change; always have always will. God does not change,. and the Word does not either. The Word of God is the message; the morals, principles, teachings, characteristics, and attributes of the Divine nature expressed by man through inspiration. That does not change, and is what students should be focusing on, not all the fantasy and story-telling most endure. So we do see today that the majority have turned from the truth....seems most fantasy, fables, and myths are being taken as literal. May grace and peace be with you.... You are confusing. You say that we should strive to know God, but excuse the lies in a book that someone calls the bible which can lead someone down the wrong path. Didn't Christ come to shine light into the darkness, and has He not told us to do the same? I do agree that we should go back to the copies of the originals that are available today and glean from them as much guidance as we can. Then what? Are we to remain silent when we see errors? It all comes down to discernment. I understand that it may seem confusing. I was there at one point early on in my studies. When I got into Seminary studies, I came across many things that went against what I was taught growing up. That is okay, because I understand that we are taught very dogmatic beliefs. Many denominations is many divisions, focusing on their own ideas and theories instead of the core principles of the teachings. With growth comes greater discernment. One must continue to grow and mature mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, and this brings greater discernment. Look at what we have when it comes to scripture. Go back to the beginnings and study the original manuscripts. Get to knoe the author, who he was writing to, why he was writing. Understand the cultural perspective. You will see what we have today is not what was intended. It has been changed, omitted, and exaggerated more than you know. So yes, strive to know the Nature of God. We know there is many alterations, so do we ignore everything? I guarentee you that you will not find one perfect translation form the original text. Even the KJV has its issues. BUT...if you read and study to find those mistranslations and misinterpretations, you are missing the whole point of the enlightened teachings. Read to receive the message with the guidance of the Spirit, and search for the Nature being expressed. Whose to say that a scripture enlightens your world, and you write your experience down, only to give a revelation to another, bringing them to Christ. Your writing was insprired, and a Divine movement came upon you, unctioning you to write. Your words...your experience, should we burn or throw away your expression you shared because it was not exactly like the original manuscripts thousands of years ago? I would think not. I would feel blessed to read it, and would use my discernment to test the spirits, and make my own decision whether or not, your writing is edifying to me. May grace and peace be with you, and I apologize for any confusion....

I disagree wholeheratedly. How can a house built upon shifting sand be beneficial for edification? It has been proven in this thread that The Message purports itself to be a Bible and not merely a translation. Therefore, we are commanded to examine it. It also has been shown in this thread that it distorts the God of our Gospel. We have two opitons here. To fully embrace it or caste it off. We have a scriptural mandate; 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Co 11:4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him. Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed. Back to the point that I disagree with you about. How can there be any Light coming from the darkness? Mt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be sound, your whole body shall be full of light. Mt 6:23 But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! "Be careful what you see little eyes little eyes, be careful what you see little eyes. Be careful what you hear little ears little ears, be careful what you hear little ears. Be careful whom you trust little heart little heart, be careful whom you trust little heart. For the Father up above is looking down in Love" Grace and Peace to you too brother, Dave I appreciate your reply, and understand. I can relate to the perspective you have. For someone raised in Mainstream Christianity, never really advancing their studies, or for someone coming to Christianity, the very altered versions are not for them. I would agree on that 100 %. Some versions are very helpful, while some can cause more bad than good. Personally, I do not like the Message Bible that much. But it can be beneficial for teaching and expounding the scriptures. What is your version you are true to? Most raised in the church, as myself, would say the Authorized King James. Established in the 1600's. Even that version has it alterations. So do we discard the King James? What about American Standard, or Amplified? Different translation and interpretations based on the writer, giving another expression of what was received. If we argue over the versions, then everyone is out of there pretty much. We can access ancient manuscripts, and some versions use these to get closer to the original meaning. My stance on the various versions, I study and read. I test the spirits, and compare the translations with the original Hebrew/ Aramaic and Greek. I always have my KJV, but also have many other versions for cross reference and expounding. I have a foundation. I know my heart and where I am with the Divine Nature. I can read and study historical documents, manuscripts, other holy oracles, and not be swayed or dismayed. I know the core truths of the characteristics and attributes of the Divine Nature. All the verses you used are great, and I agree...I do. I do know that following Christ, and the avenues of discipleship, varies for everyone. You should never base your walk on any one else's. I think students should have not just the KJV, but concordances, dictionaries, and whatever version helps them to understand the scripture... Thank you again brother for your reply, and I pray that converstaing and sharing edifies us both.

because; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto myths. I agree... I do, but my point was that knowing those scriptures you mentioned, we should have reverence for the original oracles, not argue over one of the many distorted versions. No point in fighting or arguing over the many new versions and translations...we know they are not accurate, but they still can be beneficial for edification. Plus we have to understand that the Word of God is not eh words in black on a white page. Those change; always have always will. God does not change,. and the Word does not either. The Word of God is the message; the morals, principles, teachings, characteristics, and attributes of the Divine nature expressed by man through inspiration. That does not change, and is what students should be focusing on, not all the fantasy and story-telling most endure. So we do see today that the majority have turned from the truth....seems most fantasy, fables, and myths are being taken as literal. May grace and peace be with you....

First, there would be no need for faith if God or His Word could be known inside and out. Second, if you know all about it as you state, then you are God and will surely teach the rest of us all things. Third, I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, not to be confused with any religious body. Then in your next post You would be correct in that statement, if it were directed toward me (but I know that isn't the case). I don't answer many questions because of my lack of knowledge. I exercise great caution for fear of misleading someone or taking Scripture out of context. I don't have great knowledge of Scripture but I am learning and I thank Him that He has blessed me with a passion for learning. I do however, love the Lord. I do trust Him and that trust wasn't built over years of studying any particular translation or paraphrase. It's not blind faith, for true faith isn't blind. The more I learn of Him, the more knowledge I acquire, the more I love Him and am in awe of Him. I'm certain that I am not far from the Truth as He confirms His Word throughout Scripture. Perhaps you should check your heart and see how much it lines up with your knowledge and even more, with the heart of God. A great many people know of Him without actually knowing Him. I trust, considering the confidence with which you write, that you are not one to be categorized as such. I am like a child first learning to add except for the part of thinking that I know it all. Algebra or calculus are totally lost on me. One's knowledge, or lack thereof, is no measure of faith. I thank you for your comment....I believe that what was said may have been misunderstood. My mentioning to know inside and out, what I place my trust in, is not meant to convey to know the infinite personality of the Divine Nature, in it's entirety. That is not possible at the current time. Man can not know the extent of God. In the book of Isaiah, in the Duetro-Isaiah passages, Chapter 55 expresses that God's thoughts and ways and much higher than His. Proverbs, Chapter 3 says to not lean on our own understanding. This is known. But from the perspective of a person, an individual, when approaching something that will drive all I do, I will ensure that I study daily and apply myself to understanding. Faith drives this. Faith, when translated closer to the original Greek from a Hebrew/ Jewish mindset, means trust. To trust, one must feel sincerity in what is being trusted. This comes to the heart. The heart being the center of all we do. Our feelings, emotions, etc. The depth of our desires, motives, and intentions. It drives every aspect of who we are, whether we realize it or not. I can say yes, that I honestly do know alot when it comes to religion and belief systems. I have studied them inside and out as thoroughly as I can...and you know, i am no where near the potential that is within us. I am not God...but you can agree, as a Christian, we are His children. As one comes to Christ, and the transformation begins, their is the inheritance of the Kingdom. I may not be God, but the Essence of the Creator is within me. And to know that I am a part of the Divine Intelligence creates nothing but awe and respect. To be a follower of Christ...there is a reason there are no true images of Jesus. Too many people even today, become to obsessed with the imagery of the image of Christ and fail to learn his Nature. His Nature is the only way we can become truly intimate and personal with Christ. That comes with prayer, meditation, contemplation, and most of studying who Jesus really was. Removing the contortions and manipulations of scripture. One has to know how he walked, thought, taught, spoke, etc...and to know it thoroughly, one has to understand the Jewish culture, traditions and customs. Get to know Jesus personally. I assure you that my heart is right. The truth changes as you grow. I was raised in the church, and have studied very thoroughly because of my heart. You have to learn to rely on the Spirit, and not what man and others tell you. Your heart will seek the Lord, and doors will open. True Divine wisdom is hidden like buried treasure; Proverbs stresses this. This spreading out of the hidden truths and mysteries preserves the truth and also shows who really has the determination to seek God. If you really want to know the Divine nature, you will seek and search with so much passion...it will overwhelm you. Knowledge and faith go hand and hand. Hosea 4:6 says, " My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee...." In the Tanakh, the original translation of that verse in the Hebrew says that we are destroyed for a lack of obedience. One who has faith needs to not be idle, faith without works is dead. Waiting on the Lord is active, to serve, and to be obedient is to study and seek. "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me." - Proverbs 8:17 "The Lord is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh Him." - Lamentations 3:25 Must have heart...it is the key to enlightenment of the Spirit. "But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find Him, if thou seek Him with all thy heart, and with all thy soul." - Deuteronomy 4:29 "...serve Him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searcheth the hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts..." - 1 Chronicles 28:9 "Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye search for me with all your heart."- Jeremiah 29:12-13 Continue to grow and mature...seek and search the truth for yourself. Grow in Christ. May grace and peace be with you.

I raise a question for edification. Not to question Christianity or anything of the sort. I say this, because most that I talk to that are not sure of their foundation and question their own beliefs, seem to be the ones who always go on the defensive. That's understandable. Our faith and beliefs are so personal and intimate because they are internal. Anyone can question your job or hair, but when it comes to what we put or sincere tust in, we get defensive. It causes wars and death unfortuneately. Hesitation and caution is actually the tool to guard our inner tranquility. It's normal. But my question is that, I ask if people really know and understand translations and versions, why we have what we have? Too many think that the KJV is the ultimate, and like it has been around since written history began. Do people know the Septuagint? Or the Vulgate? Do they know when the 66 book order was placed in the order we have today? Do they know the previous order? These are all questions that a student should know, but really is not readily known. It is not taught in the Church. And there is a reason for that, which can be easily learned if one study the history of the Christian Church. How many actually know the history of the Church? I saw a post earlier that said the KJV had so many flaws. That statement can be good and bad. I assume that most take it as an attack, and really it depends on the motive behind the info. KJV...yes, it has it's flaws. Most are mistranslations. Like the Red Sea. We are taught that Moses and the Hebrews crossed the actual Red Sea. This is an English mistranslation. It is actually the Sea of Reeds. Even in the New Testament, we have the Epistle of James, part of the General Epistles. Jesus' half brother right?...his name wa not James. His real name was Jacob, or Ya'akov. The officals when applying for funding for the version told King James I that one of Jesus' brother's had the same name as the King. This got their funding, but also changed the name in Scripture. Those things are not bad; that is human nature with a dispostion for mistakes. Those historical aspects are part of the education. It's esential. Even the basis of what we read; most don't know the Hebrew culture, and even then, to know the Hebrews, one must study the various cultures and civilazations that influenced them. the stories, myths, epics, sagas, poery, pose, etc... all influenced by other cultures. How insignificant is it then to argue over one English version, in a line of MANY! "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15