ManApart

May grace and peace be with your all. Yiygadal v'yitkadash sh'mei rabbah!

Most think of Greek gods and such when they hear mythology. Myths are the oldest forms of story telling. Man describing an experience with nature or the divine, and doing it to the best of his ability with limited knowledge. A false hood portraying a truth. And I am sorry about the quote, I did not mean to convey it was you. Myths are just a form of expression. The flood or deluge was an event of worldwide size and was told in all civilizations. The Hebrews were behind on oral-to-written record compared to the other civilizations around them. You take a story, and make it your own. No problem. A myth used is stil la myth, just retold. There is no argument, there is just the fact and truth of historical writings. Only ones that argue about it is usually those raised not knowing the background. Then when the issue arises and the basics of the backgrounds are mentioned, people go on the offensive. It's okay, normal, and expected. I did it too when I learned of certain things. Take the Book of Jasher, mentioned in the Old Testament in Joshua 10:13, and 2 Sam. 1:18. It predates the Old Testament books. Try reading it if you can get ahold of it. See how man has changed the original oracles.....but wait, i am wrong, as those in here are quick to say to make themselves feel better. That is why I have always found the truth on my own with the guidance of the Spirit; I have studied and went backwards to the origins. Not allowing the limitations and dogmatic teachings to keep me complacent or trapped in a box. The ultimate potential is within us, the heart, and I trust, believe, and have faith that my heart is in accordance with my God. Grace and peace be with you...

Something saddens me, and it is so common in Christianity. I was raised in the church and it seems that Christians, Mainstream Christians, only argue, point the finger, and put others down. I was told that this topic area had many minds that were very edified. I came here to discuss and fellowship on what I thought was a mature level, not a religious soap box level. There were many aspects that I did not agree with when I got to seminary studies, but I realize my standard was how I was raised. Mainstream Christianity has not incorporated many truths, and those truths will not be found unless one goes past the limitations of Mainstream Christianity. To be attacked and put down and told I am wrong when I know good and well I am right, allows me to move on. I do pray that those who have issues get through them. I pray that eyes and ears are opened. My prayers are with everyone and I am thankful to those who were polite and considerate, asking my views and sharing theirs. Typical....the whole reason I detached from Mainstream Christianity and applied myself to Christ and Messianic Judaism. Go back to the origins and learn the original context for maximum edifying lessons. That is what I did, and am thankful for it, for I can see when others are not in line with God's message. May grace and peace be with you all...

It seems every time I try and explain things, that I was under the impression those in here knew, I am constantly told I am wrong, and I should check my heart. I am very aware of what I know, what I have studied, and who i have studied under. What I will do to answer the question you ask, and refer you to what to research. Midrash, a Jewish style of teaching. Look it up. There is one member who says he is Jewish, a am guessing a Messianic Jew. Having Hebrew roots and knowledge, he should be very familiar with midrash and how it is reflected in scripture. Midrash designates the use of sacred scripture; an interpretation. Midrash was not for interpretation of the literal sense,, but it was used for seeking the maximum of edifying lessons. The goal is a practical application to modern times. Scripture can be retold, not in the historical sense, but in a manner to achieve edification. There is the "halakhah" and the "haggadah"; one for narrative teaching and the other a walking conduct type of teaching. Midrash is necessary in that it is personalizing the scriptures, and that it is an imaginative reconstruction of the inspired scripture. Literal sense, as historical facts and origins, is pushed aside, in order to extract the lesson; a principle, moral, or message. A true sympathetic understanding of midrash is essential in understanding Judaism and Christianity. To understand something in the Bible, one must know and understand how the intellectual and religious environment, and how they came to their own understanding. How they conveyed the lessons. Midrash was their way of taking sacred scripture, and making it applicable to their time. As the culture grew and society changes, so do traditions and regulations. Anew society uses midrash to draw out the lessons, principles, and morals in the scripture, and midrash had it's part in the development of the early church. Jesus used midrash as well as the rest of the teachers, priests, and scribes. It was very common in the Second Temple era. But, I am sure that I will be told I am wrong or something. I studied the culture that wrote the scriptures, and I believe that they know their writings better than those that teach Mainstream Christianity full of anti-semitism. I pray I am not coming across rude, but I have been attacked since the first comment I gave. I was then accused of putting others down first. It's okay though, it is the norm I have seen my whole life in the church. May grace and peace be with you. I see no attack from anyone. Please quote where someone asked you to check your heart? I asked how your view of scripture lines up with how Jesus handled it. And that hasn't been answered. Nothing more or less. 4given1, on 13 June 2011 - 01:02 PM, said: I line up the scripture by the standard of the Divine Nature. I studied Jesus toroughly and intimatly. I learned how he walked, talked, everything I could. How he read, what festivals he observed, the customs and traditions of a jewish man with the highest reverance to the Torah. my paradigm of the Judeo -Christian scripture is based on the culture of the time and not the anti-semetism and anti-law view from Mainstream Christianity.

That's not true. For one to truly and thoroughly know who Jesus Christ was, and is, having an understanding of the cultural is essential. Is it needed for ones Salvation? Probably not, but who can say when one allows Jesus into their hearts. You are shackling people with a burden that isn't necessary. You're also adding something to the Word. You say it probably isn't salvation related but then go on to say that maybe it is. When you say things like this you are condemning countless multitudes of people. Because I know nothing about jewish culture, you're saying I don't know Christ. I don't believe it's your place to make that call. Brother, Ido not question or make any statement on your salvation. I have no place to say anything. Your walk is your walk. What I said is getting to know Jesus in a "more" personal and intimate relationship. I am sorry you are confused at what I say. May grace and peace be with you...

The flood , or deluge, epic is common around the world. A universal story. Over 200 srories, 50% older then the Hebrew account and 70% of those include the same details. Just different characters for the culture retelling the story. Noah was the Hebrew characte for the Hebrew realtion to the worldwide deluge story. but, once again I quess I am wrong, along with the rest of the world. Look up epics like the Epic of Gilgamesh, it had a strong influence on the Hebrew version of the deluge. My view of Christ is very intimate. I know where I stand. I do honestly worry for the rest of the majority who think they actually know the facts, and preach and argue of details they do not know. May grace and peace be with you.

From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Jesus Himself was happy to use the example of Abel, as a real life character, no obfuscating the truth in His words.... 49

Buit name='~candice~' timestamp='1308127408' post='1686137'] Man - what then do you say about the manner in which Jesus Himself read and understood the bible and it's inerrancy? Jesus spoke of Adam as a literal person. He quoted passages from the OT as if they were literal and true. Was Jesus wrong, or just going along with the current understanding of the time? I think it would be quite easy to make a case that Jesus' interpretation of the bible (at that time, the OT) should inform our interpretation of the bible and thoughts about inerrancy and inspiration. If the Son of God reads it, cherishes it, quotes it and teaches from it as if it were literal, what liberty do we have to read it any other way? God bless

No, in Scripture visions, revelation, awareness dreams, etc. are not considered "inspiration." There is no such connection between those things and the doctrine of inspiration. Rather it is visions and dreams and revelation that the Holy Spirit inspired the biblical authors to record. They are the subject matter of the inspired text, and not the mediums of inspiration, themselves. "Religious" inspiration??? What in the world is that? Being inspired of God to pen the Scriptures does not reflect what you call the "simple view." Not really. Inspiration is the means by which God super-intended His truth by the agency of the Holy Spirit upon the authors who, through the same spiritual agency recorded inerrantly that same truth. You are referencing Jeremiah 20:9. And that is not an example of inspiration. Jeremiah was referring to his calling as a prophet. His point was that even if he tried to forsake his ministry and stopped speaking in His Name, the message was a fire within Him. He could no more forsake that calling than could a mother forsake her child. Sorry, but you are reading that wrong. That is again, wrong. The Bible comes from God inerrantly. The human nature is incapable of inerrancy. Man is by nature an errant being. All of the truth of Scripture was transmitted from God to man and God prserved it from error. Furuthermore there is no "human nature half" of Scripture. The Scripture does not at any point originate with man. None of that pertains to the issue of inerrancy. You are long on words, but short on substance. Which parts of the Scriptures do you considered inspired and inerrant? Sorry I did not answer your question immediately. I am new to this site. I was told many great minds were here, many mature and edified individuals. Early Hebrew writings are heavily influenced by the societies and civilizations that were surrounding them. Creation myths of the Mesopotamian region, such as Canaanite, Sumerian, and Egyptian were know to the Hebrews. As they began to move from oral tradition of records to written records, the Creation myths were retold according to the Hebrew beliefs, showing their version of how they fit in to existence. The Enuma Elish, Epic of Gilgamesh; all stories of how man believes life was established. All have the pretty much the same story line, events, and lessons, just different characters and twist. Real interesting to see the cultural reflections. You asked about characters, which ones are not literal. Cain and Able are examples. They are allegorical characters reflecting early Israel, when they had conflicts between the nomads and the agricultural sides. They were never meant to be real characters. According to Mainstream Christianity they are, but if you study the Hebrew culture and their historical writings, it is well explained. As far as we are taught, Cain and Abel were literal. When teaching a lesson, whether or not the character is real, does not really matter. Doesn't change the message being conveyed. Those are apart of the inspiration. They are the avenues by which man perceives the Word of God. God has a desire or purpose, and then moves upon man. God uses visions, dreams, and so on to share with him. God works on man's level. That inspiration is a continuation, starting with God's desire, then eventually manifesting into a power laden spoken word or written word passed down for another to utter, releasing the power of the Spirit. The term religious inspiration was meant to refer to the Torah and it's level of reverence to the Tanakh. The Law being the top, or most inspired, then followed by the prophets, and last the writings. The three fold charisma is for that, and the point is that religion places limitations on inspiration and says what is inspired. True inspiration is not in a box or limited. Religious leaders then made godly opportunities of peace, prosperity, and health into burdens and obligations. Religious leaders still do it today. Religion views inspiration differently that one who approaches from the spiritual or non-biased perspective. This goes to the "simple view". Inspiration and the potential within is not complicated. Man makes it complicated. Jesus even used the example of a child in that a child-like mindset allows one to partake in the Kingdom. This is simplicity; an unwavering faith and trust. There is the simple view, not complicated by man, then the religious view of limitations. What you say is true, I was not denying that. I was stating the fact that it can be viewed that way. It is all part of the overall purpose of the inspiration. This is part of the inspiration. Jeremiah's burning within his bones was a type of inspiration. God chose him, knew him before the womb. And when the time was right, God moved upon him. Inspiration, and the burning was an overwhelming desire and unction to be a prophet. Try looking up the Hebrew meaning of inspiration and reference with Israelite literary forms. Inspiration is much bigger and has great importance to the depth of scripture. Maybe I typed something wrong but I did not mean to say there is error on God's behalf. There is none. I am not sure who taught you there is no human nature in the Judeo - Christian Bible. Human nature plays as much role in what we have today for a Bible. You keep telling me I am wrong, I am sorry you feel that way, but maybe if you advance your studies more you will learn those truths. I studied the Hebrew culture, historical records, literary forms, you name it. I have placed my all into getting to know my God personally. Have learned much, and I can say, I am far from completion. I am sorry if what I say seems incorrect to you. The Judeo -Christian Bible we have today is full of philosophy, theology, psychology, and sociology. Those are all aspects of mankind and the human nature, understand the human nature, and then discernment allows the core truths of scripture arise. If you think for one second that there is no manipulation, corruption, alteration, omitting, and even exaggerating to scriptures, you really should study the history of scripture, translations, versions, literary forms, and the history of the Church. But in all that, God's word, the essence of the message, never changes...that will endure and last forever, no matter what human nature does to it. May grace and peace be with you....God Bless.

No so brother; Ec 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecclesiastes is written from the perspective of a man and not God. There is nothing new under the sun where a man is concerned. Man hasn't changed, he's still a sinner. Peace, Dave Ecclesiastes, a wonderful book. Most do not understand the depth of the writer and the writings. You mention something very important, that it is written by a man. A man inspired to write by a unction and movement in the spirit. One of the fellow members just sent me a comment that there is no human nature side to scripture. I was actually told that there were some very edified members of this forum, with thorough knowledge and stability in spirit. I have seen comments and statements that I would not expect. To see the physics of Creation and how life orcestrates is enlightening to individuals, such as the author of Ecclesiastes. To glimpse as a sage into the aspects of the Universe, God's plan, and our purpose here, really brings things into perspective. There are cycles and seasons to everything, and within those cycles, is change. Purpose initiates design and the design process constrain to meet the purpose. Everything changes, especially mankind, God does not. God, the Creative Diety, it is His purpose and Will, and it does not change. Man changes, aklways has and always will. Change is a Universal Law. As man changes, so does his avenues of expression. Man, or the human nature, is sinful. It has the potential for wickedness. Just because man is still in a sinful nature does not mean that man does not change. His having a sinful dispostion does not affect his ability to write and share experiences of the Divine Nature. I am thankful though that my God knows me better than I know myself. He knows my concrete reality and personality, and being that I grow, learn, experience, and mature, I change. But this is nothing new...correct? Been done before and will be done again....God Bless brother.

I understand what you are saying. God understands human attributes because He made man. However, there's something more God became what He beheld. He understands human attributes/nature because He became one. The Divine Nature as you express it became Man and made His dwelling with us. The Divine Nature stooped down and humbled Himself. Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Do you agree with this and is this what you are trying to express? Do you agree that God became man in the flesh? Peace, Dave Yes sir...I do agree 100%. The Divine Nature humbled Himself.....I love that, AMEN brother!

Except the Bible does not ever treat any of its characters as mythical or unreal. Which characters do you think were unreal? What is your position on stories like the parting of the Red Sea? The Miracles of Jesus? How do you view the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture? Inspiration is generally considered the origin of Divine knowledge. A Divine Intelligence conveys knowledge to a man by dream, vision, revelation, or awareness. It can be seen as a guidance or instruction received, or even a divine Impulse. For religious inspiration, there is a three fold charisma for scripture. The instruction of the priest, the counsel of the wise, and the word of the prophet. From the simple view, anyone can be inspired, or moved upon to write and share an experience that when read by another, can be edifying. Inspiration can be understood as a dictation of words, an interpretation of instruction and guidance, to convey a message. Inspiration is separate from revelation. Inspiration produces the sacred scripture, and revelation is the attestation, or proving, of a truth. What is written by the inspired writer may not be a revelation to him, but a revelation to the reader. Inspiration affects the ideas and understanding that the writer already has; God works on man's level. We can not comprehend the fullness of the thoughts and ways of God. We know that from scripture. God does not show us things beyond ourselves, but shows man things that they can relate and understand, inspiring him, and it is then up to the person to interpret the inspiration and speak or write it. A continuation of the Divine Movement. Inspiration is the resonating within my soul, like Jeremiah and the burning within his bones. Experiencing true inspiration does something to you and can not be explained in words; it changes you and orchestrates our holy walk. The inspiration and the divine movement continues with guidance from the spirit. There is no inerrant with the unction and will of God. Inerrancy comes form the human nature half of the literature. Man changes...so the translations, versions, and beliefs change, and that can be seen in study with understanding of human nature, psychology, philosophy, etc. The inspired message; the point of the enlightened teaching, reflecting the character of God's Nature does not change and is by no means in error. Inspiration is positive and negative, not necessarily good and evil. God Bless.....

Yes...agree, very much so. That knowledge brings greater discernment then when reading. One can separate the Divine Nature from human nature. If You Know Jesus See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 36:39-40 You Know God Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30 And If You Don't The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 ____________ Believe That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. John 10:9 And Be Blessed Beloved For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. John 10:10 Love, Joe May grace and peace be with you brother.

Salvation is simple in the love of it's availability. " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Faith is best described with the word "trust". To me , trust comes from my belief in the sincerity of God's love, and Jesus' life. I trust, so i belief and have faith that He is true to His message and that His Nature is abundant for enlightenment. Salvation is a mindset. Many believe that just because one says they are saved, they are saved. Anyone can say it, all day every day, but if the heart is not right, it is in vain. The heart is the feelings, emotions, and depths of desire and motives that orchestrate our walk. It's a mindset and attitude. Free will choice and decision. It also takes time and faithfulness to continue the walk. Grace allows me the opportunity to adjust my mind and heart to align with the plan and will of God. He allows me to choose to be obedient and follow Jesus with all my heart. Jesus is my Savior. He was there for me, patiently waiting. His walk and life is what I put my sincere and honest trust in, and examining His nature, embarrassed the mindset of Christ, allowing that Universal Divine Intelligence to adjust my spiritual polarity. A man? God in the flesh? Half man, half God? Enlightened One?....the question and standpoint that has caused the most death and argument in the history of the Christian Church. Creeds would change and each ruler changed the belief of the whole body, bringing murders within the church. A question that does not change or sway any part of my belief in who Jesus was, is, and what he did for me. His example is my foundation... Grace and peace be with you brother....

I disagree wholeheratedly. How can a house built upon shifting sand be beneficial for edification? It has been proven in this thread that The Message purports itself to be a Bible and not merely a translation. Therefore, we are commanded to examine it. It also has been shown in this thread that it distorts the God of our Gospel. We have two opitons here. To fully embrace it or caste it off. We have a scriptural mandate; 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Co 11:4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him. Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed. Back to the point that I disagree with you about. How can there be any Light coming from the darkness? Mt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be sound, your whole body shall be full of light. Mt 6:23 But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! "Be careful what you see little eyes little eyes, be careful what you see little eyes. Be careful what you hear little ears little ears, be careful what you hear little ears. Be careful whom you trust little heart little heart, be careful whom you trust little heart. For the Father up above is looking down in Love" Grace and Peace to you too brother, Dave I appreciate your reply, and understand. I can relate to the perspective you have. For someone raised in Mainstream Christianity, never really advancing their studies, or for someone coming to Christianity, the very altered versions are not for them. I would agree on that 100 %. Some versions are very helpful, while some can cause more bad than good. Personally, I do not like the Message Bible that much. But it can be beneficial for teaching and expounding the scriptures. What is your version you are true to? Most raised in the church, as myself, would say the Authorized King James. Established in the 1600's. Even that version has it alterations. So do we discard the King James? What about American Standard, or Amplified? Different translation and interpretations based on the writer, giving another expression of what was received. If we argue over the versions, then everyone is out of there pretty much. We can access ancient manuscripts, and some versions use these to get closer to the original meaning. My stance on the various versions, I study and read. I test the spirits, and compare the translations with the original Hebrew/ Aramaic and Greek. I always have my KJV, but also have many other versions for cross reference and expounding. I have a foundation. I know my heart and where I am with the Divine Nature. I can read and study historical documents, manuscripts, other holy oracles, and not be swayed or dismayed. I know the core truths of the characteristics and attributes of the Divine Nature. All the verses you used are great, and I agree...I do. I do know that following Christ, and the avenues of discipleship, varies for everyone. You should never base your walk on any one else's. I think students should have not just the KJV, but concordances, dictionaries, and whatever version helps them to understand the scripture... Thank you again brother for your reply, and I pray that conversation and sharing edifies us both. Bless you brother, The common translations out there may have translational errors (In your opinion) and they may not, but they definately do not intentionally change the meaning of the Word. I have a software package with all the reliable texts in it. Unpack this thought for me. What does this mean? We are all walking our walk and we are all working out our Salvation with fear and great trembling. At least I hope. However, we are all following the Same Christ Jesus who is God come in the Flesh. Therefore, we are all born into the same Kingdom. We are all being discipled in the same Faith. One Body One Faith. Christ is the head. Jesus said this; Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. No one gets to the Father except by jesus. Therefore, if this Bible is presenting another Jesus, another understanding, wouldn't you agree that it's dangerous? Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad that were conversing too. Peace, Dave I use the term Divine Nature when I am speaking Of my perspective and impression of "God". We know that God is not a man, but we see that in scripture man uses anthropromorphism. That's human nature; when something such as the Divine, is so far beyond man's comprehension, the only way he can relate and identify with the Nature is to personify it. God gets human attributes. In the book of Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, chapter 55, we know it says that God says His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. God is not man, and His ways and thoughts are not ours. When we get to know someone, like a friend, or spouse, or family, we end up connecting and responding to their nature. This is the heart and being of who we are. Our consciousness, feelings, emotions...our depth of desires and intentions; we release divine energy in pulses and waves. We bond with each others nature. We can put on masks and facades, but our nature will manifest. This is the journey and approach we take to Jesus and our relationship with the Father. We become more intimate and personal, with the characteristics, attributes, and personality of God. That is the essence of what scripture was intended for, to express an experience with the Divine, with the awesome and eternal Divine Nature. That Nature is the standard; all scripture when tested is tested by the standard of the Divine nature of God, expressed perfectly by the Son Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMaschiach. The Nature is what we should be relating to and experiencing. Not some imagery of the image of Christ. The Divine Nature is an Intelligent Energy and Essence, and that is what I relate to, not the anthropormorphic imagery of Zeus and Hellenism. May grace and peace be with you...God Bless!