douggg

In Revelation 17:10, it says kings, not kingdoms. The 7 kings are all of one kingdom. Revelation Man, you need to work on perfecting your terminology regarding the arch-villain of the end times. The person is "the Antichrist" only for the period of time he is in the role of being the phony King of Israel. Which is most of the first half of the seven years. For the 42 months, which is basically the second half of the seven years, he is no longer the Antichrist the phony King of Israel, but has become "the beast king", dictator of the EU. Work on those two things, when to refer to the person as "the Antichrist" and when to refer to the person as "the beast king". The person as the Antichrist phony King of Israel is not even in Revelation 17. The person is in Revelation 17 as king 7 and 8 - of the Roman Empire (the EU in the end times). ______________________________________________________ little horn - leader of the EU ten kings. King 7 of the Roman Empire (the EU in the end times) then becomes the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog then becomes "the Antichrist", phony King of Israel then becomes the revealed man of sin - time as the Antichrist, phony king of Israel is over at that point. then becomes "the beast king" - King 8 of the Roman Empire (the EU in end times), dictator of the EU, the kingdom of the ten kings

There were not any false religions in the garden of eden when the first person was slain. Mystery Babylon the Great is responsible for all slain upon the earth. Revelation 18:24. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

False Religion is associated with Rome, the seven mountains upon which the woman sits, verse 9 ? What about Islam and Hinduism ? Aren't those false religions ?

The mortally wounded but healed head in Revelation 13 is king 7 who has been killed near the middle of the seven years and comes back to life as the beast king, king 8 of Revelation 17:11. Revelation 11:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. He is not possessed by Satan. But Satan gives him power, via the miracles done by the false prophet whenever the beast king is present. Revelation 13:12 And Satan gives the beast king his (Satan's) seat - which is to be the prince of this world. Those days are not far into the future. Well, Revelation 13 shows the kingdom of the beast king, as being the composite beast (as a whole) coming out of the sea. I wouldn't call it a Global Government, but the dominant or ruling kingdom which exerts its will over the rest of the world, by its military and economic strength.

Yes, Revelation 12 is a continuation of Revelation 11. If you take a look at Revelation 11:14-15, the third woe signified by the seventh angel, comes quickly (as in about to be shown what it is). And in Revelation 12:12 we see that the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. There is no reason for the two witnesses to be prophesying in Jerusalem, if it were not to benefit the Jews. The two witnesses defend themselves when anyone tries to hurt them, Revelation 11:5. The witnesses are not "raptured", they will called up to heaven as everyone watches, Revelation 11:11-12. Romans 11:25 does not say "till the time of the Gentiles is over" but "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" i.e. the Jews will not become believers until the church age is over signified by the rapture/resurrection event. The Jews coming to believe in Jesus is not in Revelation 11, but in Revelation 12:10 and as the woman who finds protection in the wilderness Revelation 12:14, the mountains outside of Jerusalem. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Which Jesus spoke for the Jews to do in Matthew 24:15-20, telling them to pray that their flight will not be in the winter, neither on the sabbath day - the sabbath observance for Jews limits the distance they are allowed to travel on the sabbath in order to keep the commandments of God. 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

@Vine Abider Here is a timeline chart I made of the seven seals that also includes the third woe of Revelation 12:12 in the upper right hand corner. Look closely to see the little horn > (becomes) the Antichrist > (becomes) the revealed man of sin> (becomes) the beast king.

Again, the wonder, the vision that John saw when he was in the third heaven, portrayed historic (verses 1-5) and end times (verses 6-17) events. It does not say that Jesus was raptured at birth. It is identifying the man-child as Jesus from Satan's attempt through Herod to kill Jesus at birth. Jesus, who when he left this world was taken up a cloud, in Acts 1 to heaven. kjv Acts 1: 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. The text says wonder, not sign. The woman is Israel going back to the dream Joseph. I have already gone over that. Some people want to make "wonder" a sign - because they want to apply positions of the stars when connected make "so-called" signs like the big dipper, to postulate a "sign" of events people saw from earth. No, there are not valid conflicting points, when a person understands why there are crowns on the seven heads of the dragon and no crowns on the ten horns of the dragon. I suggest that you look at that crowns/no crowns table, included in my post, and digest it. I have over 50 years of studying the end times prophecies and Revelation, btw. Not boasting, just providing information. One of the things I did not include in my post is that in Revelation 12:12... is the third of the three trumpet woes first mentioned in Revelation 8:13 is found in the part highlighted in red... which is the devil come down having great wrath. Which the third woe lasts the time/times/half time, Satan will have left - that encompasses the timesframes of the other two woes found in Revelation 9. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. -------------------------------- Vine, what I suggest is that you start developing a timeline chart of end-time events in Revelation 6-19... as a whole, and not just look at the chapters as fragmented bits and pieces, isolated from one another.

In Revelation 13, the seven heads no longer have crowns, like they did in Revelation 12. All 7 kings have fallen in Revelation 13. One of the heads has been mortally wounded (fallen) but healed. Upon being healed, that king has become the beast king, king 8 of Revelation 17:11. The ten kings have crowns in Revelation 13, to rule with the beast king, as its says in Revelation 17:12.

Please go to the "Let's discuss Revelation 17" thread. And discuss anything you want to of things in Revelation 17. The ten horn kings have their crowns in Revelation 13, to then rule with beast in his kingdom. See the opening post comparison table.

Hi Marilyn, I just want to first note I intended for the thread to not be limited to discussion just with me. But with others discussing with others, as well. -------------------------------------- imo, I think verse 2 is talking about the mutual benefit that the Vatican gets from recognition by the leaders of the nations, who seek to accommodate the Vatican, and in return for their accommodation, the leaders receive political power in the way of votes (in democratic countries) and approval from Catholics within their nations to keep the population satisfied. Revelation 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

You have strayed off topic of this particular thread. But not for you to be upset, I have created a new thread - "Let's discuss Revelation 17". Copy and paste your post there, please.

I have created this thread for discussion anything you want about Revelation 17. I call Revelation 17 the great overview chapter because it gives insights to events taking place in previous chapters of Revelation 12 and Revelation 13, in particular.

First, it is important to keep in mind that Revelation 12 is the wonder, the vision that is seen, in the third heaven, not only by John, but also by the souls of Christians who had died and were there as well - including Jews who had become Christians. And that vision portrays historic (verses 1-5) and end times (verses 6-17) events. ---------------------- Yes, the Lamb is Jesus, the man-child. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. our - all in the third heaven, at the time of the Revelation, including the souls of some Jewish believers his - God's them, their, they - the Jews, who up to that time were unbelievers in Jesus, but had become believers him - the devil, Satan, that old serpent --------------------------------- Revelation 12:6 - is end times, the first half of the 7 years, the testimony time of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, the 1260 days. Revelation 12:14 - is end times, the second half of the 7 years, that Satan will have left (before being made a terror no more at Jesus's Return), the time/times/half time. ---------------------------------- The meaning of the crowns/no crowns on the great red dragon in Revelation 12.... The seven heads have crowns - king 7 of Revelation 17:10 has come to power at the beginning of the seven years, completing the prophecy of the seven kings. The ten horns do not have crowns, because they rule with the beast king, i.e. king 7 after he becomes mortally wounded but healed in Revelation 13 with 42 months left in the 7 years. The the ten horns do not have crowns until Revelation 13, when they do have crowns in that chapter. Below is my comparison chart of the crowns/no crowns and the time stamps of the three chapters containing the 7 heads and 10 horns. Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century seven heads - no crowns (end times completion) ten horns - no crowns (end times completion) Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns. seven heads - crowns (seven kings completion) ten horns - no crowns Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns seven heads - no crowns. one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king. ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king). .

You are giving your interpretation of all of Revelation 17. That was not my intent of the crowns/no crowns comparison table. A person could use the comparison table to assist in formulating their interpretation if they choose to do so. But giving an interpretation of Revelation 17 and other end times events - was not my intent of the crowns/no crowns comparison table. I have three other threads...that gets into identities. Who's who in Revelation 17 Who's who in Revelation 12 Who's who in Revelation 13

Sure it is relevant. The sixth king was ruling at the time of John, 1st century. Thus the seven heads and the ten horns, neither had crowns in Revelation 17 - because those are to be fulfilled in the end times chapters of Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 when they do have crowns.

The scripture the kjv says wonder - not sign. I think the problem in our disagreement is that I view Revelation 12 as a grand vision, a portrayal of historic and future events, taking place in the third heaven where John was. Differently, I think that you are understanding heaven in verse 1 as being heaven which we see the stars. The reason you want to make verse 1 a sign. ------------------------- Noting that difference - let me give you an example why you cannot just substitute Israel for the woman and read back the text that way. Suppose you were in your living room - watching television (a vision) and saw president Biden in a news broadcast. Can you go back and say president Biden was literally present in your living room, at that time? No, you can not. You are at your home, and President Biden is off somewhere else, at the time you saw him on television. The same reason, you cannot retrofit Israel as being literally present in the third heaven, at time John saw the wonder, the portrayal of historic and future events.

In Revelation 12:10, it indicates that the people of Israel - the Jews - have finally embraced the gospel of salvation and Jesus as their savior - after and due to the two witnesses 1260 days of prophesying in Jerusalem to them, feeding them the word of God in Revelation 12:6. The Jews keep the commandments of God including observing the Sabbath, which their travel is limited on that day. In Jesus's instruction for them to flee, when the abomination of desolation image is standing in the holy place, Jesus also included for them to pray... Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ...which would impair their ability to flee. _________________________ So there is only one group in Revelation 12:17, the Jews, who keep the commandments of God and also have the testimony of Jesus because they will have become believers in Him.

Revelation 17 is timestamped first century because in Revelation 17:10, the sixth king was ruling at the time of John, first century. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Revelation 12 is timestamped endtimes because there are the 7 years in the chapter, the 1260 days, then Satan cast down, then the times, times half time he has left. 1260 days + the times, times, half time = the seven years Reveation 13 is timestamped endtimes because the beast (king), the mortally wounded by healed head, is given 42 months in verse 5, the second half of the seven years. And he will be worshiped during that time. The beast in Revelation 17 is not worshiped in that chapter, nor in Chapter 12.

huh ? John sees not a sign but a great wonder - which is closer to being a vision, than a sign. We call our televisions - televisons, not telesigns. Those in verse 17 who have the testimony of Jesus will be the Jews -the people of Israel - who fail to heed Jesus' word in Matthew 24, that when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place to flee to the mountains right away, don't delay. The ones in verse 14 are the Jews - the people of Israel - who do flee to the mountains right away as Jesus instructed, where they will be protected. The church isn't anywhere in Revelation 12. Your logic methodology is the what produces the absurdities. Of course, the nation of Israel was not literally in heaven - in verse 1. John is seeing a vision - not the literal presence of Israel. And the vision that John was seeing is full of symbolism and metaphor - that other scripture reveal the meaning to.

What is "this" ? Maybe you misunderstood the intent of the comparsion chart. I made a comparison table of the crowns/no crowns on the seven heads and ten horns of the three chapters of Revelation 17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13 to help others see the crowns/no crowns of the chapters at one time. Once you figure out what your "this" is, then maybe you should make a new thread with that title, starting out with the content of your post.

In the Tanach (the old testament of the kjv), Israel is metaphorically the wife of God, albeit many times unfaithful. Jesus in the new testament is referred to as the Son of God. The Isaiah 9:6 verse, thus is.... Unto us (Israel), a child is born, unto us (Israel) a son (Jesus the Son of God) is given. God is the father, Israel is the wife (metaphorically), Jesus is the son.

In Revelation 17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13, the seven heads are seven kings. The ten horns are ten kings. The crowns/no crowns varies when those three chapter are compared. The purpose of this comparison table is to help the readers to see all three chapters crowns/no crowns at one time. If you zoom out on your monitor, so all three chapters are shown at the same time, the comparison table is a little more easy to follow. Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century seven heads - no crowns (end times completion) ten horns - no crowns (end times completion) Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns. seven heads - crowns (seven kings completion) ten horns - no crowns Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns seven heads - no crowns. one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king. ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

Hi AdHoc, What translation are you using ? In the kjv, it is not a sign but "a great wonder" 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Back in Genesis 37, Joseph had a dream similar to the great wonder John saw. kjv Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? Which his father's reply indicates that Joseph's dream was about Israel. The woman in Revelation 12 gave birth to a man-child. In Isaiah 9:6 unto us (Israel) a child is born. The man-child, the son, in that verse is Jesus. kjv Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ------------------------------------------------------------- So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. And the man-child is Jesus. ------------------------------------------------------------- Satan in Revelation 12:4 attempted to kill Jesus as soon as he was born. kjv Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Satan, through Herod, attempted to kill Jesus as soon as he was born, with Herod's order to kill all infants under the age of 2, in Matthew 2:1-23.

The two witnesses will be two prophets because they prophesy for 1260 days. -------------------------------------- The term "Christians" first came into being as applying to believers in Jesus in Acts 11:26... 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Thereafter, by tradition, we are called Christians.

The they in Revelation 12:10 are the Jews who will turn to Jesus and the plan of salvation in middle of the seven years, after their perceived messiah (the Antichrist) betrays them. God is the One who is responsible for having Satan and his angels cast down to earth, as God begins dismantling Satan and his angels' mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great, responsible for all that have been slain upon the earth (Revelation 18:24). Also, it is part of God's plan to specifically to bring Satan's free roaming days of evil to an end. God's plan for that found in Ezekiel 28:16-19. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Behind all of the ills to creation is Satan the father of lies - beginning when he whispered into the serpent beast's ear of what to say to beguile and deceive Eve, and Adam into sin.