douggg

I agree. And all 12 chapters, include chapter 8. You seem to be contradicting yourself, Charlie. Either Daniel's writings, all twelve chapters, were available to Jews during their time in Babylon or they would not have been. Are you saying some of the chapters were hidden from the Jews while they and Daniel were in Babylon ?

The word "cross" is not found anywhere in Daniel 9:24-27. You are referring to the cross becaus you are sourcing from the NT.

The transgression of desolation will be by the little horn, not Jesus. The 2300 days as associated with the little horn is time of the end. The cleansing of the temple complex will be when Jesus returns. He will cast the little horn person who will have become the beast-king of Revelation 13 into the lake of fire, along with the false prophet. And the statue image of the beast-king turned to ashes. And Satan exposed and cast into the bottomless pit. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Jesus did not make the temple desolate, because sacrifices continued after His death and resurrection. And Jesus did not do abominations to make the temple desolate. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 is still unfulfilled, pending the arrival of the little horn, the prince who shall come.

Daniel 12:11-12 is time the end. Daniel 12:9.

Charlie, you are sourcing the NT. The cross is not in the text of Daniel 9:26 about the messiah cutoff. In Daniel 9:24, "and to seal up the vision and prophecy". Jesus did not fulfill that part of Daniel 9:24 at his first coming. Because the vision is not about Jesus, but the little horn, the prince who shall come, who will stop the daily sacrifice and makes the temple desolate. 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. the matter - the coming to the end of the Babylonian captivity. (Daniel 9:2) the vision - the vision when Daniel first encountered Gabriel, in Daniel 8 about the time of end little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and making the temple desolate.

Daniel was in Babylon when he departed this world. All of his writing before then. So the Jews still in the Babylon captivity after Daniel departed this world would have had access to what wrote in Daniel 8, regarding the time of end vision of the little horn and him stop the daily sacrifice and making the temple desolate.

Charlie, here is what you wrote. I highlight in red - of you sourcing from the NT because the cross is not found in Daniel 9:26, as being how the messiah is cutoff. "This covenant (existing covenant) will be made stronger, better by the cross and He, not “he” (whoever one inserts a name here) is the Messiah- this was His God given mission (9:24) AND He will fulfill and complete His mission DURING the last 7 years of the prophecy."

Here on earth, begun spiritually, as the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to the world.

Israel became a nation in the land again on May 14, 1948, fulfilling not only Ezekiel 37:11-12, but also part of Isaiah 66:7-8 about a nation brought forth in one day.

There will be 3 categories of saints at the time of Jesus' return. 1. the raptured/resurrected event saints who don't go through the great tribulation. They accompany Jesus when He returns. 2. the great tribulation saints, i.e. persons who go through the great tribulation and turn to Jesus during the great tribulation. Those who survive the great tribulation are the ones in Daniel 12:12. 3. the martyred great tribulation saints of Revelation 6:9-11, who Jesus will resurrect their bodies at the time of His return in Revelation 20:4-6. In Ezekiel 39:28, once returned to this earth, Jesus will gather all of the house of Israel still remaining in the nations back to the land of Israel, by sending out his angels to gather them in Matthew 24:31. Then, there will be generations of people born around the world during the millennium, who will make the choice whether they decide to worship God and Jesus, and receive God's gift of salvation or not. The ones who choose not to, Satan, when released from the bottomless pit prison, will deceive them and they attack the camp of the saints, Israel, and the beloved city of Jerusalem. The former Gog/Magog nations will make up the bulk. No, the Messiah will not return until 7 years after the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39. The completed gathering of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel is in Ezekiel 39:28 and Matthew 24:31.

I don't know what you are talking about "the war of the beast". Gog is a separate entity from the beast. The person who becomes the beast does not happen until the middle part of the 7 years following Gog/Magog. Gog-Magog in Revelation 20 is indicating the same nations that partake in Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39, will also take part in the last rebellion in Revelation 20. I don't believe your assertion is because Jesus is speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth, 7 years after the Gog/Magog event.

The Muslims nations taking part in the Gog/Magog event will no longer have armies after that. Gog/Magog - then the 7 years verse 9-10 - then Armageddon verses 17-20 - Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth in verses 21-29.

Neither Roman, nor Muslim... but a literal beast... who will possess the end times beast-king, called so because he will be possessed by the spirit of a literal beast used by Satan. The spirit of the literal beast will be that of the serpent from the Garden of Eden. ------------------------------------ The person possessed by the serpent spirit will be a Jew who is also descended from the Julio-Claudians. Not a Muslim. Muslims seek to destroy Israel, and not be in a union with Israel.

The messiah is cutoff in verse 26. So he is not available for verse 27. The person who is available is the prince who shall come.

You are sourcing from the NT. Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks includes " and to seal up the vision and prophecy " The vision is the time of the end vision Daniel was given about the little horn person of Daniel 8. Prophecy would include prophecies made in Daniel 12:11-12, the stopping of the daily sacrifice and setting up the abomination of desolation, at the time of the end, Daniel 12:9. As far as being 2000 years into the future, that is not something a Jew living back at the time of Daniel could know. But the Jew would know that that the prince who shall come will be the little horn person, because the little horn person in Daniel 8 stops the daily sacrifice and causes desolation- the same as in Daniel 9:27. There is nothing in Daniel 9:27, that it is the messiah who stops the daily sacrifice.

The big picture of Daniel 2 is God of heaven is going to setup an everlasting kingdom... that will break all of the kingdoms represented by the statue image makeup. verse 44.

We were talking about how the content of Daniel 9 would have been understood by a Jew, without any sourcing from the NT. But if you want to tie Daniel 2 to Daniel 9, as to how a Jew would have understood Daniel 9 without any sourcing from the NT, go ahead. Nebuchadnezzar was the king at the time of Daniel 9 was written by Daniel.

Charlie, I know that you mentioned those two things. But what I asking you for is the textual reference that states "the restoration of all things" and the textual reference that states ""the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant" ? If I said "confirmation of the covenant for 7 years" , I would reference Daniel 9:27, for example.

Charlie, you are confusing me of what you mean - because you are not giving textual reference. "restoration of all things after Babylon," what text are you referring to that has in "restoration of all things" ? And what text are you finding "the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant" in the form of the messiah or otherwise ?

Charlie, chapter 8 sets the framework, because Daniel in chapter 9, referred to the first time he saw Gabriel in chapter 8, regarding the time of the end vision involving the little horn. The little horn of Daniel 8 will be the prince who shall come in Daniel 9, who will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years by having the law read to the nation of Israel, as Moses directed of all future leaders of Israel in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Charlie, reading from Daniel 9 without any sourcing from the NT, where are you getting from the text "rejection of the Messiah" ? Also, reading from the text, where are you getting a cross being referenced ? All the text says is that the messiah will be cutoff, but not for himself. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

No, I wrote that the Jew at the time of Daniel would NOT have realized the Prince who shall come is the NT Antichrist. Here is what I wrote... "The Jew would not have realized that the prince who shall come is the NT Antichrist."

When you conditioned no sourcing from the NT, that is what I understood. But it seems you wanted sourcing from the NT in a first century setting. The posting by you about Ribera claimed to have begun the futurist view - is irrelevant. I did not say anything about the Antichrist in regards to the discussion of Daniel 9, because that would be NT sourcing. ------------------------------------ I agreed to a non-sourcing of the NT, because I know that the time of the end little horn person will be the prince who shall come. And the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is referring to the Mt. Sinai covenant. But you cannot discuss a non-sourcing of the NT for Daniel 9 because it conflicts with your interpretations of Daniel 9.

The temple and city in Daniel 9:26 are prophesied to be destroyed - after the messiah is cutoff. So the restoration of the sanctuary is not by the messiah.