thomas t

Ok, Gerald, it's nice that you understood me better. But, is there really no scientific reason? I'm not thinking of any possibly missed scientific hint to a creator. I simply rely on what descent scientists keep telling me. I'm thinking of science telling me that it does not answer any sort of question which relates to the supernatural. Science, as I understand it, claims to be neutral against the supernatural. However, if science offers us a theory in which any sort of direct divine intervention is fully excluded - isn't this taking sides in favor of an unguided process, in which God cannot occupy any better place than outside of thewhole process? I would answer with a "yes, it is" and I wonder why science can't just formulate their theory for the development of the species in a more neutral manner, so it would be open to a creator? I would answer with a "yes and no". When man was created, there was a paradigm shift, if I understand the Bible right. First, animals developed according to their kind... And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. Gen 1:24 ... but man was created in another kind: Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,1 and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Gen 1:26-28 In a new approach towards creation God apparently made use of a new way of production, I think. Thomas

Good day Gerald, no problem. I understand the theory of evolution as the evolution of the species only. The so-called chemical evolution, in contrast, I don't count among the theory of evolution itself. Have a good day, the second question, I'd like to answer along with this. Good day candice, actually, I don't. Man (I don't mean poster Man here but rather humans in general) was directly created, I believe. The Theory of Evolution claims common descendancy and, to my knowledge, is very clear about how many common ancestors there were: only one. The moment Adam was made by God in direct assembly, as the Bible teaches, we have at the very least two common anscestors of creatures. Let me evoke another field to get my point across. The theory of plate tectonics. If God decided to lift up one rock and have its location relative to a fix constant over time, the theory would still be ok. The reason is, in my view, that it speaks on the macrolevel only. The theory of evolution is, in my opinion, different, as it declares that every single animal comes from the same ancestor. Have a good day, you too Thomas

(1) Sorry, I didn't make it clear. My question related to what you expressed earlier, i.e. that no matter what we find, it could always be that God is doing it or making it appear that way. That reasoning can be applied to anything. We see atoms bond and form molecules, but it could be that God is assembling them Himself. You think you're typing right now, but it could be that God is actually doing it. (2) Which do you think is a better design, one that requires constant oversight and tinkering, or one that can run on its own? (3) Mark claimed that there was absolutely no evidence supporting the idea that all life arose from chemicals/chemistry. My observation that all life forms are made up of chemicals and operate via chemistry was in response to that. Of course there are lots of other data supporting universal common descent, but all I had to do was point to one data point that's consistent with the concept to refute his claim. That's all. And sure, "anything is possible". Maybe one day we'll find out that there are microscopic elves moving things around inside our cells. But until we see that, I'm not going to worry about it. (1) Thank you, I understand you better now. And my point was that the Theory of Evolution needed only one of these direct divine interventions you are mentioning to be turned into a lie. You agree with me that divine intervetions are possible in any field. However, single divine interventions in other fields would not turn other theories into lies. Let me give you an example out of the field of macroeconomics to get my point across better. Now, if God came down to earth and brought along an object, say a new camera, he would certainly have contributed to the wealth of the nation. But that does not hinder any growth model from being true. It's just one object. This, in my opinion, stands in sharp contrast to what would happen to the theory of evolution, if God produced just one animal via direct creation. (2) the second. (3) yeah, but you didn't make clear why that was a support for common descent in your opinion. So you didn't write why just pointing to one data point, that in your opinion is in line with the concept, was sufficient to refute his claim, as I read your point. Thomas

(1) Sorry, but I wasn't talking about what would be required to "bring the theory of evolution down". My question is more about what you believe. (2) So God kinda sets up the rules and then lets the process run on its own? (3) My noting that all life is made up of chemicals and cells was in response to Mark's assertion that there were "no facts...supporting the theory that everything evolved from chemicals into a cell into all the life forms". If life arose via some other means (non-chemistry), then shouldn't we see something else besides chemistry going on in all life forms? For reasons of simplicity, I added numbers to your comments. (1) I understood your reasoning as to say that I maybe thought that God personally assembles every single atom of the universe just because I think that the ToE cannot be proven. That's why I wrote about the one interaction from God making the whole of the theory an assembly of lies... Anyway, feel free to ask your questions, please. (2) This one is a bit tricky to answer. The only possibility to do it, in my opinion, is to read the Bible closely. The verse I cited referred to the production of plants only. What was true for that, might be wrong for anything else. Moreover, the verse does not cite God being lazy all the time after he set up the process. Maybe he surveilled afterwards how things were going and just didn't tell us... (3) you're implicitely telling me that the fact that scientists at present don't detect any non-chemical traces maybe hint to the chemistry of the cells supporting evolution. I don't buy it. I mean, maybe God left non-chemical traces behind, and scientists just don't know yet, maybe he did not. Anything is possible for the Almighty. On the other hand, traces humans leave behind in nature are sometimes so ugly, I'm sure you know about it, that God maybe takes it as an incentive to act in opposition to that, not leaving behind anything scientifically detectable .... who knows? (that was an off-topic remark) Have a good day Thomas

Life is made up of something. You are explicit about it and cite chemicals and cells. However, you haven't told us so far why you think that it definitely supported the theory of evolution. Isn't it that you rather feel that it might suit that theory well? To me, the fact that humans and animals are made up of more or less the same materials they are surrounded by, reveals an intelligent trait of design. What do you think? Thomas

Very true. That could apply to anything (not just evolution). To reiterate: It could very well be that God is directing all or part of the evolutionary process, just like it could be that God is personally assembling every single atom in the universe. But I would question the efficiency of that sort of thing. And that makes me wonder...Do you believe God is behind every event in the universe, or do some things happen on their own? Hi Gerald, in my opinion, God does not necessarily have to assemble personally everything to bring the theory of evolution down. If God had intervened just once in only one step during the process of the development of the species, he would have sufficiently refuted the theory, already. I believe that God sometimes initiates processes that are guided somehow through autopilot systems. Look at this verse from the Bible (suited to our topic): Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. Gen 1:11 ... the phrase "according to their various kinds" makes me think of autopiloting. As a matter of clarification: I don't believe that God's creation always followed or follows the pattern of production layed out in this verse. have a good day Thomas

Look, if you actually do find X, you can't exclude any kind of theistic intervention, I think. You would have needed to prove that God isn't able to present X or let appear X while the available data remain in place....

So in your opinion, what bit of evidence is lacking that would convince you? Hello Gerald, I have no idea. Since I belive that the ToE is wrong, I don't expect it to be proven, at all. Other theories convinced me because you can show it through repetition or test. In contrast, you can't repeat the development of the species neither can you test it as to test the whole thing, I think. Have a good day Thomas

Hello ae, I like smaller threads so let me answer you here. In the bolded paraghraph you mention a particular nerve, simliarities between the DNAs of different species, disabled genes and their specific functions they could be identified with and finally analogies concerning the similarities of the DNAs of different species on the one hand and the similarities shown by their respective fossile record on the other. You follow implicitly the interpretation most people have for these well established facts which is common descendancy. To you, this looks very nice, and everything seems to make sense to you through the interpretation given by the ToE. However, this is just one interpretation highly popular with today's world, I think. In my opinion, it can't by shown like other scientific theories can be. I wish you a good day, Thomas

Good day GE, This article is about soy in Brazil (ok, I've mentioned corn above, but soy is feed to animals, as well, to my knowledge): http://www.dw.de/brazil-to-take-soy-lead-with-respect-for-rainforest/a-16547231 This article is about land grabbing from indigenous people http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR19/007/2012/en/aae1831f-3a91-4cfe-9e7c-02d59fc51dd6/amr190072012en.html I personally think that amnesty provides accurate research on various human rights issues, land grabbing is one of these topics. The alternative of using pesticides is organic farming. Have a good day Thomas

Thank Joe for your explanation, I also trust in the Lord, of course. Have a very good day Thomas

~ No Stumbling On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. Acts 10:9-16 ~ IMO The Trouble Starts With A Bible Believer Getting A Whipping For Eating Meat Especially Bacon For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. Isaiah 66:15-18 And Than He Slaps Back With The Truth About Foods And The Grace Of The LORD Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Romans 14:1-2 Thus Turning The Kosher And/Or The Vegan Away Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Romans 14:3 By Sitting In The Judgment Seat Of God Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4 As I See It ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Dear Joe, thank you for your words. But let me turn the attention to environmental issues out of today. If you want to eat conventionally produced meat, the meat producer perhaps used feed grown in Brasil or some other similar country. The corn fields maybe were taken from the rainforest. The people who lived off the rainforest, maybe they were indigenous, maybe expelled and live now in the outskirts of Rio underneath some plastic cover. (But the Brazilian government expells them anew because the Soccer Worldcup is approaching...) The corn farmer offers them no compensation, neither does the Brasil government. And then comes all the pesticides that get the soil rotten, just in case the wheat farmer didn't want to do without pesicides. They also might do harm to the health of his land workers. And on top, they make use of perilious fertilizers. In Germany, there is a big problem with too little oxygen in the East Sea. Too many prok producers are a burden for the water, seaweeds arise. This is Jesus' world - but does he appreciate the way we treat it? Does Jesus also appreciate the way we treat our animals today? Have a good day Thomas

Hi Neb, with all my heart I wish that we would describe ourselves as Christians only, without any additive like politically right or left. Thomas

Sorry, it can't work that way. The age of the universe and the age of expansion are in different units, and then you add in yet another (days/year)? That doesn't make any sense. Good day Gerald, he meant the age of the universe counted in years and a rate. Not the age of expansion. A rate doesn't have a unit, at all. Moreover, I don't see, where he adds anything. Greetings Thomas

~ Day Six And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31 Revisited And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7 And Revisited And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Genesis 2:18-23 And Then There Were Babies As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand. Ecclesiastes 5:15 And We Can Hear The Thoughts Of A Godly Man While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. Job 1:18-22 ~ And As For The Mother Of Adam Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38 Well Beloved There Wasn't One Hi Joe, I find this very interesting, but when do you think day six was over? Babies on day six, for me this seems a bit too early...

Good day Ayin, I've spent some thought on your assertion, that's why my answer is a bit late. I totally agree with you when you say that God made man and woman as adults. But I ask myself, does the Bible teach that they were already adults the moment day six has ended? I don't see this. We read: So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. Gen 1:27 Bible teaches that man is man already in their mother's womb. So I don't see that mankind was adult already at day 6. Thomas

enough of these insinuations! I'm not putting up anything here for my entertainment!

hello Davis, no, I never did that, please don't put words in my mouth.. Thomas I am not putting words into your mouth, I am describing your actions. Let me explain how I see what you are doing.... Lets say to prove a point we need to show A, B and C to be true. Verse 1 shows A and C while verse 2 shows B. you are looking at verse one and saying "it does not show B" and you are looking at verse 2 and saying "It does not show A or C" and not putting the verses together. This is what happens when you limit your discussion to only one verse at a time as you are requiring people to do Good day Davis, ok feel free to prove omniscience with three verses and please let us know the interconnection between these three and why it would prove omniscience. Look, I didn't like so much the word "require" in your answer. I think I didn't require people to do anything, my post was meant as a proposition to discuss a Bibleverse. And as a plea to not throw 25 Bibleverses into the debate. When I said this I had in mind just giving Bibleverses without describing any interconnection between any verses. If you can accuraqtely depict the interconnection between two or more verses and then accurately show us the logic of why omniscience is shown by it, please feel free to do it. On top, please stop writing "you did this, you did that!" when I never did anything of this sort. Thanks Thomas The crux of the matter is that you can't reasonably limit the number of Bible verses necessary to discuss or explain any one topic or doctrine. There's always a necessity to search for context and to take the entire council of the Bible into consideration. This would be akin to me asking you to name all of the cities in germany but only giving you 1 sentence with ten words to do so. Entering into a discussion is fine, but setting the parameters for the quantity of proofs that others in the discussion can use is unfair. Good day Steve, well I don't think that was unfair, he presented the number of 3 verses and I simply catched up on this. Let's see how Davis is going to react. If he says he can do with 4 Bible verses and 6 interconnections, I will still be open to read this. Look Steve, my time ressources are limited. I just want to prevent anyone from presenting me 25 Bible verses and 25*26/2 = 325 interconnections.... ;-) Thomas

Good afternoon Fez, why are you asking me that? My conviction is that you cannot prove that God is not omniscient. Furthermore, the reasoning the OP presented here, an attempt without the use of scripture, was nicely refuted by Bary (among others perhaps, but I stopped reading after his answer that focused on the difference between "outside of time" and "infinitely fast".), I think. Thomas

hello Davis, no, I never did that, please don't put words in my mouth.. Thomas I am not putting words into your mouth, I am describing your actions. Let me explain how I see what you are doing.... Lets say to prove a point we need to show A, B and C to be true. Verse 1 shows A and C while verse 2 shows B. you are looking at verse one and saying "it does not show B" and you are looking at verse 2 and saying "It does not show A or C" and not putting the verses together. This is what happens when you limit your discussion to only one verse at a time as you are requiring people to do Good day Davis, ok feel free to prove omniscience with three verses and please let us know the interconnection between these three and why it would prove omniscience. Look, I didn't like so much the word "require" in your answer. I think I didn't require people to do anything, my post was meant as a proposition to discuss a Bibleverse. And as a plea to not throw 25 Bibleverses into the debate. When I said this I had in mind just giving Bibleverses without describing any interconnection between any verses. If you can accuraqtely depict the interconnection between two or more verses and then accurately show us the logic of why omniscience is shown by it, please feel free to do it. On top, please stop writing "you did this, you did that!" when I never did anything of this sort. Thanks Thomas

hello Davis, no, I never did that, please don't put words in my mouth.. Thomas

good afternoon Davis, No, I did’t discount Bibleverses, I never do that. I’m just saying that I think that the various verses presented thus far are not proving omniscience (and I hope that the number of further verses stays modest to not make the discussion more complex than it is already). I think you are maybe messing up method and example, here. I’m not debunking the whole of a method when I say that at this particular example a Bible verse does not show the particular point my discussion partner claims it to show. Thomas

Thank you brother! The idea with the one verse was only to prevent others from "hurling" like 25 scripture verses somehow related with the topic and then letting others do to get them in the right order. Thomas

~ Beloved Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge. Job 37:16 (NIV) For Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. Psalm 147:5 (NIV) The Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed. 1 Samuel 2:3 (NIV) Wise For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9 (NIV) Man For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. Job 28:24 (NIV) It By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:19-20 (NIV) Seems And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:13 (NIV) Just I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done. Isaiah 46:9 (NIV) One But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Matthew 10:30 (NIV) Verse May Do Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether. Psalm 139:4 (NIV) But For Those Wise Guys See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8 (NIV) Nothing Seems To Get Through “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” he Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. Revelation 22:16-17 (NIV) Except The Will Of The LORD God Almighty so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11 (NIV) ~ This Post Is Bought To You Through The Beloved New International Version (©2011) For Which I Give God My Heartfelt Thanks I Am A Bible Rich Fellow I Am Blessed Dear Joe, just in case: please don't count me among these wise guys you are criticising in your post, Joe? Look, you cited a very good verse, which is Job 28,24. But I think, you must admit that translations differ for this one. The KJV translates that God sees under the whole heaven. It appears to me that it is just not clear to which word the "whole" refers gramatically. Have a good day Thomas

Well Thomas I kind of expected this reaction no matter what Scripture was presented. You asked for a clear indication of where in Scripture it is stated that God knows everything. So are you saying this passage is incorrect in it's assessment that God knows everything? If so, then your issue is with Scripture. What do you think of the passages in Isaiah, Job, and Psalms when all combined with the passage in 1 John 3? Jon, I'm not saying that a Bible passage is not correct. His knowledge is perfect. Combined with the verse you cited before, we get the image of a holistic knowledge, I think. Please also see my discussion of the Job verse in my answer to Joe. Psalm 147 underlines that He has no limits. Indeed, many Bible verses say that he is able to know everything. However, this IMO does not mean that he makes use of this power.