His_disciple3

That's right. Job was mature in faith. A very interesting word there. The same word was used to describe Jacob in Genesis but translated 'plain' instead. Gen 25:27 And the boys grew : and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob [was] a plain8535 man, dwelling in tents. Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect8535 and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. I really don't know what to make of that. But also understand the word 'perfect' there '8535' is used to mean undefiled as well. Interesting stuff. Gary well I think it has already been establish and agreed upon that words can have different meaning.

I am justifying no sin when I say that you are not perfect...and never will be while living in a flesh sack. You obviously refuse to see and think you can perfect yourself. That is only arrogance....proving your perfection has a lonnnnng way to go yet. Well If I have arrogance In God seeing me as perfect, then would I not have my arrogance in My God, Yes, there has been only one Prefect One, But God sees His people as perfect, and we can never be that perfect One, for all have sinned, we have already messed up, But 1 john says if we say we have no sin, but my friend to say we have sin because we have flesh, is not to say that we have to sin, sin no longer has dominion over us, 1 john 2;1 IF ANY MAN SINS, NOT WHEN ANY MAN SINS BUT IF ANY MAN SINS Job 1:1 1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. KJV the Word of God said that God saw Job as perfect and upright, does this contradict there is only one Perfect One, No, for all have sinned. Job had sinned and Job had sin, But God Is the judge of sinful man and not you or I or any other man , And God did not say that Job was a sinner saved by grace, but that he was perfect through Grace. no arrogance on my Part just faith in God to do what He has promised to do.

and him that cometh to me: is man's response to the calling of the Holy Spirit to God, but I beleive if you read John 17, there is a bibical exception to your verse here, Jesus said that He had kept all, and none are lost, but the son of perdition, because the Son of perdition would not come to Him,( now you may say that I am assuming that judas didn't come to HIM, but I am not assuming but banking on what Jesus said in your verse He has kept ALL that has come to Him so why was Judas not kept because He didn't come to Jesus, so does prophecy come about because God said it would happen or because God knew it would happen, did God prophesy Judas' betrayal to make it happen, or did He prophesy of foreknowledge of knowing it would happen?. keep in mind Judas told the scribes I will show you the One you want by a kiss, the scribes knew Who Jesus was! Judas didn't have to show them, whom Jesus was. verse 37 explains verse 39, there is a calling from God (the great supper, there was an invitiation sent out) there was a response from the invited, three refused, others filled their spot, so who was given To Jesus the ones that refused( NO WAY) He was given the ones that answered yes to the invitiation, whosoever (who) calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, and these in no way will be cast out, were the three that refused allowed to the supper? NO! Were they cast out? NO! they never was there to be cast out, but the ones that did respond yes they are there and they will never be cast out, even if there don't have the proper table manners, they will remain at the Great Supper which is like unto the Kingdom of God. Revelation 22:16-17 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. KJV it says "let him take of the Water of Life freely, not force him to! was Jesus lying in John 6? no , is there a contradiction between John 6 and john 17 No way! only the way people try and make scriptures fit their doctrine, instead of making their doctrine fit scriptures.

Let's reverse your disagreement for just a second. telios is also used in Romans 10 "For Christ is the telios (goal) of the law" If we use the current english definition of the word "Perfect" in place of "telios" it says "For Christ is the perfection of the law". That might seem like a possibility but in context Paul is only saying that the goal of the Law is to bring us to an understanding of why we need a sacrifice for sin. Because we are not capable of "perfection" of our own merit. Do you really and seriously believe that God requires absolute perfection (no mistakes) of us? Who could live under that burden of legal requirement? Are you perfect yet? Do you know anyone who is? In the entirety of world history and time there has been only one who was, and they crucified Him for it. weren't you the one that said words can have different meanings, so why are you now trying to prove the meaning of "telios" in one scripture has to mean the same in another scripture, yes I am perfect, when God (who is my judge and not you) looks at me, He sees me as righteousness through the Blood, this is the only way one will get in, my friend, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes, what is the high calling paul preached about not a high calling as an officer of the Church but the high calling of a Child of God is to press toward the mark, of perfection/holiness. present your bodies(temples) a living sacrifice, HOLY and acceptable unto God, 1 john said if any man not when any man sins, "if" is an option, God said the He would make a way out of your every temptation, also God said He knows how to deliver His children from their temptations. you have no excuse, the flesh won't bail you out anymore, Job was perfect before God, and John the Baptist father and mother was perfect before the Lord if these three according to scriptures can, then you need to change doctrines, to I too can be as God would have me be, I don't have to partake inthose dirty jokes at work anymore, you don't need to gossip anymore, and if we perfect our love as the contents is talking about then our sins will wade away also. love covers a multitude of sins

All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will. You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh. I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions. This is exactly what scripture says. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will. You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh. I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions. This is exactly what scripture says. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. what is your definition of irresistable Grace? if you say that Calvinist don't say that God forces himself on people, then you couldn't have irresistable grace, some that God called could resist the call. as scriptures shows that some has. a judge is not always just, they are men, God is Just, not a respect of persons, he can't radomly pick you in and me out, after making both of us be born with a sin nature. yes you say that all are borned in sin and are condemned, but scriptures disagrees with You and says if we believe in Christ we are saved and those that don't believe are condemned already. you contradict election to say that all are condenmed, if all are condemned then none was elected before time begin as we know it, if some were elected, before they were borned, then they weren't condemned already the potter made the two vessels from the SAME LUMP/ one being, two vessels; a fleshly vessel made of dishonour, a Spiritual vessel made for honour. that is not agreeing with calvinism and God makes someone just to throw away. God is perfect He can't make anything imperfect, yeah the flesh gets meshed up, the flesh was made as a veil between us and God and that veil was made to be ripped one day the veil/flesh was not made to last, as the Spirit was. do you really believe that God took one lump and split it into and said ok I will make this half/person to honour me and I will make this half/person to dishonour me. sorta makes a mockery out of every knee will bow now don't it. and even a mockery out of, let everything that hath breath Praise ye the Lord, I guess every thing that hath breath could not mean everything, guess you will hath the believe that it means only the ELECT right?

ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! The first thing you need to do is understand that you are reading a translation. That translation is using words from 1611 that have changed meaning over the centuries. I didn't say "mature" is a perfect translation into english, but it's much closer to the concept being conveyed than "without a mistake" as the word "perfect" has come to mean in modern english. Using a phrase like "completely ready" or "full & complete" might better explain the intent in some places.. Secondly, words have more than one meaning and the way they are used is more important than a static definition. Whether you like it or not, the word "perfect" is better translated as "mature" in most places where it is used. so define this one to your specs matt. 5:48 , Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. be ye mature as your Father is mature again. Please!!!! I guess next we will have to change the meaning of Holy so that it will fit your teachings be ye Holy for I am Holy hi his disciple 3, perhaps strong's def. will help. 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. robertson's word pictures, Perfect (τελειοι). The word comes from τελος, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. J f b Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore — rather, “Ye shall therefore be,” or “Ye are therefore to be,” as My disciples and in My kingdom. perfect — or complete. Manifestly, our Lord here speaks, not of degrees of excellence, but of the kind of excellence which was to distinguish His disciples and characterize His kingdom. When therefore He adds, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect — He refers to that full-orbed glorious completeness which is in the great Divine Model, “their Father which is in heaven.” you just proved that the word used in greek can mean perfect, thanks !!!!

ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! The first thing you need to do is understand that you are reading a translation. That translation is using words from 1611 that have changed meaning over the centuries. I didn't say "mature" is a perfect translation into english, but it's much closer to the concept being conveyed than "without a mistake" as the word "perfect" has come to mean in modern english. Using a phrase like "completely ready" or "full & complete" might better explain the intent in some places.. Secondly, words have more than one meaning and the way they are used is more important than a static definition. Whether you like it or not, the word "perfect" is better translated as "mature" in most places where it is used. so define this one to your specs matt. 5:48 , Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. be ye mature as your Father is mature again. Please!!!! I guess next we will have to change the meaning of Holy so that it will fit your teachings be ye Holy for I am Holy

ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please!

hi his disciple 3, it does not say perfect one. it says that which is perfect. not he who is perfect. i would not refer to Jesus as that. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. so do tell us from scripture when knowledge vanishes? could that be referring to behold the Kingdom of God is at hand?, could That, mean the new heaven and earth which will be perfect, maybe we don't know but one thing we can be sure of knowledge, didn't vanish with scriptures!

I am going to lay this out, if you want to pick it up then pick up, if you want to leave it laying then leave it laying, 1 Cor 13:10 says that when the perfect ONE comes, That Knowledge vanishes, if all the scholars can remember back Before satan tricked Eve, there was no knowledge of Good and evil with mankind. Knowledge is define from scriptures as knowing the difference between right and wrong, the completion of the canon of scripture did not vanish knowledge, but just the opposite with the scriptures knowledge increased. we will not have fullness as these scriptures in 1 cor. 13 imply , until the Perfect lamb of God returns and we will not need to know right from wrong and knowledge will vanish 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV

So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly… If someone says they have no sin the truth is not in them. I am not perfect outside christ. Christ is the only one that is perfect. To say I am perfect in and of myself is just not true. And you proved my point with your comment, "So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…" In order to be like Christ you must first have Christ in your heart. Only Christ can make you like him. You can work all your life but without Christ you will never be like Christ. I hope this help everyone understand my point. Love in Christ. I think the word prefect fit in your verse is out of content, it says If I say I have no sin , or if I say that I have not sinned, we are flesh we have sin and we have sinned, but scriptures in 1 John 2: 1-2 says that we sin not, But IF (not when) But IF any man sins, sin no more has dominion over us. we have to deal with it and the flesh, but through the Spirit we can have control over it.

everyone that quotes Hebrews 6 and tries to start some doctrine out of Hebrews six always omits the most important Verse, Hebrews 6:3 3 And this will we do, if God permit. KJV the teacher of hebrews is teaching a what if Game here in scriptures, we will set aside these things if God permits, also one baptism is scriptural. One Lord, One faith, one Baptism. we are all baptized of the same Spirit, not all Christians have been water Baptized, nor will all christians be water baptized. but all will have received the baptism of the Spirit, by the Same Spirit, there were two baptisms in scripture, thus we get doctrines of Baptism. But Jesus, John the Baptist and Paul all taught that the water baptism was replaced by the Spirit baptism. Paul came upon some believers(Acts !9) that had the Baptism of John and Paul said they needed the other baptism of the Holy Spirit

peter said that this is what has been spoken, referring to the prophecy of joel in Joel chapter two, seeing that Peter said this is that which was spoken that God was pouring out His Spirit, But the prophecy of Joel did not end with God pouring out His Spirit, but ends after the sun darkens and the moon turns to blood before the great and notable day that the Lord come. so from God pouring out His Spirit which Peter clearly says started at pentecost, til the day that the Lord come, is all part of the prophecy and will not be fulfilled until the Lord comes , seeing that Peter said it started after the Lord had come the first time, this day that the Lord come must be the last day when Jesus Christ appears. Joel 2:28-31 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. KJV

and Isaiah 14:1 says that God has yet to choose Israel, see the thing that Calvinism and apparently you also is that you ommit a very key word in God choosing you before the foundation of the world, and that key word Is By His "FOREKNOWLEDGE" So either we have a contradiction in scriptures( which can't be), As in that God has yet to choose Israel after Isaiah was born or according to calvinism God chose Israel before time begin. so with no contradiction in scriptures then my conculsion of the matter is that calvinism has misunderstood "FOREKNOWLEDGE" and according to Isaiah 14:1 God did not elect then judge but rather judged then elected By His "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of the Judgement. [ How so? all have sin by the sin of one (Adam) all will fall but according to calvinism all will not be given the chance to be redeemed. Because He has some charactoristics that make Him whom He is, and He can not waiver from these qualities, He is a JUST GOD, one without respect of persons concerning His judgement, if he redeems just by simply picking you are in and I am out, (ALL have sinned) then His judgement for your sins was different from his Judgement toward my sins, for the wages of sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. He is just! If He allows you in, then He must give me the same chance. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and as I see scriptures He gives mercy to those that ask, call upon the name of the Lord and thy shall be saved. but calvinism will tell the sovereign God that He can't allow us to call upon Him that he must force some to or no one would ever love Him( that in around about way; forcing your love on someone who don't want. it is abuse or could even be called a type of rape) that is not God of the scriptures as I see Him. and He can not lie, if He word says that if I believe then I am saved and if I don't believe then I am condemned already, this goes back to the forceful god, will he allow some to believe or does he force some to believe, He says to ask and it shall be given, a gift is a gift you can't earn it, if you buy it then it is not a gift, but one can ask for a gift, I want heaven over hell, and if it is given it is still a gift. then He said in His word that Christ was the propitiation for the WHOLE world

you know my friend I am not here to say you said, I said, the people here have access to your post as well as mine. this ain't about you or me being right. it is about the Gospel, if any man or angel comes with another gospel let them be accursed, and we can either call upon the name of the Lord and be saved by Grace through faith. and encourage people to seek the Lord, for it clearly says to seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened. The Lord said behold I stand at the door knocking, if any man will open I will come and sup with Them, it didn't say that He would bust the door down, and make you eat with Him. three were bidden and refused, and they didn't get in. the scriptures says that us being evil know how to give good gifts to our chilren ( sorta blows your theory that we being men can't choose good, now don't it?) but it says that our Father even more so knows how to give the gift of the Holy Spirit TO THOSE THAT ASK! this is the gospel That i see from scriptures, so this is the Gospel that I preach, if you want to preach what you preach contrary to to this, then My friend you had better pray that you are right, for this is not about you or me. this is about souls, and doesn't the Bible say that if we see danger and don't warn them then their blood is on our hands. no. my friend calvinism makes God a respect of persons. all have sinned, but God won't give all the equal chance to be redeemed, from the curse of a sin nature!

By the way I am not a Calvinist as you might label me. Most Calvinists preach a doctrine. I have a problem with that and that is one does not arrive at Christ through doctrine, one arrives at doctrine through Christ. With that said, I see you establish the idea of free will by quoting a parable. Parables are meant to explain doctrine not derive doctrine. There is a very important distinction that needs to be made. Man has the ability to choose, but to choose to do good over evil is not within the realm of man to do when it comes to God-good. The most important thing that man must choose to do is believe on Jesus Christ. The pharisees could not as Jesus told them because they were not His sheep. His sheep in fact hear Him and follow Him. The will is subject to the mind. You do not will something until you think to do it. But: By this the mind cannot even conceive of the idea to believe in Christ. The idea to believe, have faith in, is in itself a gift of God. God created man perfect and good, capable of choosing between Good and Evil. The problem is that man chose Evil in that he disobeyed. Adam lost the spiritual nature to obey God and that was passed on to all men as all are the offspring of Adam. He became a carnal man and all mankind with him. Man needs to have his heart of stone replace with a heart of flesh. Only God can do this. well Let me give it to you this way then, even though you don't want to be labeled A calvinist, if you preach John calvin's T.u.l.i.p. then a skunk by any other name will smell the same. as you say man can not choose good over evil and that goes along with calvinist doctrine also, then this is what that doctrine does for me; it takes one of the greatest examples of faith given in the Old Testament, the three Hebrew children, and tells me that that didn't choose to worship God over the King's gods. seeing you teach they had no say, then according to you, God made them choose Him over the king's gods. now seeing it your way this has nothing to do with faith( the as same as believing the Gospel)they had no choice God forced them to do what they did, seeing as you say they could not have done the righteous thing, now let's look at both sides of this and see how this doctrine Christ has brought you to, stacks up with scripture. first seeing that scriptures only tells us that three were throwed into the fire, there must have been some that fell down and worshipped the gods of the King, so my friend are you to say that God of scriptures that desires everything that has breathe to praise Him. allowed no wait according to you forced a whole kingdom other than three children to worship a false god? then This God of scriptures will later judge those that worshipped these false gods? and then one of the greatest quotes concerning faith is just spit upon with your doctrine, o king if our God does not deliver us out of your hands, we will still Serve our God, and even though God says in scriptures to serve whom we will, you go against the three children's faith in God and scriptures itself and say they "ALL' men can't choose good, and God goes beyond that and instead of God allowing men to choose to love Him, He fixed it where no one could love Him except those that He forces to. I have a God given ability through The measure of Faith, He dealt to "EVERY" man, now to deny me of this faith, is to say that a sovereign God can't do what He has said that He will do.

Could you please point out the verses that teach FREE-will? Man has a will but to say it is free is denying scripture as you say. I have asked before and have not gotten an answer; what is man's will free to do, and what is it free from doing. You say tulip is a man made doctrine not based on scripture. I take it that you don't believe in total depravity as you believe in free will. There is a whole thread for this topic. I take it that you do not believe in unlimited election as you indicate that is speaking about the Jews. In the NT scriptures that mention the elect, which ones of these are specifically speaking of the nation of Israel or the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and not the saints of God? With limited atonement why would Christ die for those He hates. 4 times it says God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Will Christ loose any that the Father gave to Him? If God chose us before the foundation of the world based on the fact that we would believe then God is a respecter of persons, those that are better than others at making the right choice. Irresistible grace is probably the only one that is misnamed. I would say it is Invincible grace that really says that God will do everything that He sets out to do in the lives of His sheep. As to the perseverance of the saints I am counting on Christ to do what He started to do and I am not counting on me. He is able to keep me from falling, He will not loose any that the Father has given to Him. LT I just showed in my first post that "T" in t.u.l.i.p. is shown from scriptures not to be true also "I" is ruled out as scriptures in this one parable. free to do our will, even though that will may go against what God would have us to do. it does not raise us above God as calvinist would love to twist it, But a God given ability of choosing good over evil or to some to choose evil over good. would you say that God would always have His creation to do good? would You say that God would have His works to be evil? then why are the hearts of His creation and the hearts of His works evil? Luke 14:15-23 15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. KJV here in this parable of those eating in the Kingdom of God three were bidden and all three refused the calling/invitation of the master of the supper, they resisted they flat out refused and the Master said that evn though they were BIDDEN, they shall not come! Luke 14:24 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. KJV as far as Esua, you are not to condemn any man, so could you show me what scripture you are basing your theory that Esau is in Hell. cause God hated him? I can show scriptures where that the Jews/Israelites are the enemy of the cross,( no man cometh unto the Father except by the One that hung on that Cross) but concerning the elect/Jews they are the beloved, all through scriptures God due to the Israelites reactions(free-will to serve or not to serve) to obedience. God withdrew His Mercy from Israel, but yet we find scriptures that say "ALL" Israel shall be saved. Just because God withdrew His mercy from Israel for periods of time does not make a contradiction of "His Mercy endures forever". does not God hate evil and the hearts of men are evil, but yet He commended/gave His love toward us that we might be be saved, and Jesus was sent for the Whole World, not just the sins of the elect/Jews as Paul said for us but for the sind of the Whole Word. 1 john 2, make your doctrine fit that scripture, don't twist that scripture to fit your man made doctrine! please make note here two references to the "ELECT" paul was not talking about the redeemed but the Jews/ thus election is a choosen nation that God has kept and protected over all else, the Israelites His elected/choosen people.

there are scriptures that teach election and there are scriptures that teach free-will, to say that this is not true is simply denying scriptures, but t.u.l.i.p. is a man made doctrine that is not based on scriptures along, for as the great supper, three were asked into the supper which is like the Kingdom of God, and there was three that refused the invitation. And the master took their places and filled them with someone else and it is sumed up with "that these that were bidden will not partake of my supper(kingdom)" now In Isaiah 14:1 It says that God has yet to choose Israel, and this is between chapter 13 explaining the last days and before the rest of chapter 14 explaining the Judgement day, so it is Not God electing then judging, but rather God electing by the foreknowledge of the judgement, also if we could study election in detail one would see that it mostly refers to the Jews/Israelites, paul said that he went through all the he went through as far as beatings and stonings that the ELECT/ISRAEL might obtain salvation. when You have to say that the whole world that Jesus died for don't mean the whole world then you have just made a man made doctrine, and made scriptures fit your doctrine instead of making your doctrine fit scriptures, 1 John 2 that Jesus was Not just for our (the Elect?) sins, but for the whole world!